[Discussion]The House Of Commons

[Havok]

This idea and place are fucking stupid.

The Senate is fine the way it is and doesn't need an advisory body of retards. Mike and the Admins and Mods certainly don't. And if they felt they did, they would have made one... OH WAIT!

A constitution for democracy? A public defender? Bicameral legislation? Choosing Mods? Troll actors? Are you fucking kidding me.

See, this is why the Senate STOPPED nominating new members, because those that were worth letting in are either in, would never join or are chalked full of stupid ideas.

Yes, YOUR ideas are stupid. Get over it. Not every one is a special little unique snowflake that can contribute something. Some one has to be the janitor and construction worker.

I am a construction worker, and I'm not so deluded or arrogant to think other wise. I contribute as best I can, but I don't have great ideas or anything truly profound to add and neither do you. The sooner YOU learn that you are not Publius or Simplicus or Darth Wong or whoever you look up to and aspire to be like or be respected by, the better.

No, the Senate isn't perfect and YES it is a popularity contest at times and YES it is an old boys club at times and yes they get "perks". So fucking what! Are you gonna fucking cry? Newsflash: Life isn't fair. Not everyone is treated equally. Some people get the shaft. Some people are just plain fucking dumb and no one wants to hear what they have to say.

There is a whole group of people on this board that I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A SAY IN HOW THINGS ARE RUN. YOU are in that group. You are in here playing fake Senator, which is just... SO FUCKING RETARDED.

Seriously, other than the Coliseum threads, which could SO just be stickied in OT or *GASP* The Coliseum forum, the only mildly productive threads are the mod threads and there you have people like ME being nominated. Come the fuck on. Seriously. (I do appreciate the vote of confidence Kendall.)

And surprise, the only consensus that this recent crop of whining and bitching has brought about is that we need more moderation. No fucking shit you bunch of dumbass Sherlocks. It only takes a cursory glance at the board index page and the list of Mods for the different forums to figure that out. And do you know who already came to that conclusion back in August? The Senate. Did they act on it? No. Slow to act on it? Yes. So fucking what. It isn't their JOB to act on it. Maybe when it IS their job, you will have some legitimate gripes.

Discuss, flame, yell and scream, make strong arguments for or against, HoS. (Which would be my preferred choice, so there was less evidence that I posted in this place.)

[ray245]

Which reminds me, why are you offering your opinion then?

[Ace Pace]

Which reminds me, why are you offering your opinion then?

Because someone needs to tell retards like you that these options are ludicrous and they would be well served for remembering theres a whole host of existing rules that I bet most posters do not know except DR6.

[ray245]

Which reminds me, why are you offering your opinion then?

Because someone needs to tell retards like you that these options are ludicrous and they would be well served for remembering theres a whole host of existing rules that I bet most posters do not know except DR6.

That is no argument for shutting down the board for instance. Sure, I made tons of stupid proposal, however, other people is free to argue against that proposal and shut it down.

Out of many ideas, only some ideas can be enforced and carried out. Which is why we have debates in the first place.

[The Romulan Republic]

This idea and place are fucking stupid.

The Senate is fine the way it is and doesn't need an advisory body of retards. Mike and the Admins and Mods certainly don't. And if they felt they did, they would have made one... OH WAIT!

A constitution for democracy? A public defender? Bicameral legislation? Choosing Mods? Troll actors? Are you fucking kidding me.

Some of the ideas here have merit. Others do not. That's probably true of the Senate as well, and every other God damn organization under the Sun. And who the fuck do you think set up this place? It was put up by Mike and the Admins and the Mods, not in bloody revolution.

See, this is why the Senate STOPPED nominating new members, because those that were worth letting in are either in, would never join or are chalked full of stupid ideas.

Yes, YOUR ideas are stupid. Get over it. Not every one is a special little unique snowflake that can contribute something. Some one has to be the janitor and construction worker.

Now you've made this personal.

Come on. To seriously argue that out of the entire board, no one outside of the existing Senate has any worthwhile ideas would be retarded. Their are plenty of reasons someone might not be a Senator while still being a very intelligent individual. Do I need to list them?

I am a construction worker, and I'm not so deluded or arrogant to think other wise. I contribute as best I can, but I don't have great ideas or anything truly profound to add and neither do you. The sooner YOU learn that you are not Publius or Simplicus or Darth Wong or whoever you look up to and aspire to be like or be respected by, the better.

Note that this has questionable relevance to the topic of the House of Commons, but are you saying people should not look up to the intelligent among us and try to improve themselves?

No, the Senate isn't perfect and YES it is a popularity contest at times and YES it is an old boys club at times and yes they get "perks". So fucking what! Are you gonna fucking cry? Newsflash: Life isn't fair. Not everyone is treated equally. Some people get the shaft. Some people are just plain fucking dumb and no one wants to hear what they have to say.

No one is forcing you to read it. And obviously some people, including some of those vastly superior intellects with influence on this board, do want to hear it. Otherwise, this sub forum wouldn't exist for you to waste both our times bitching about it.

There is a whole group of people on this board that I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A SAY IN HOW THINGS ARE RUN. YOU are in that group. You are in here playing fake Senator, which is just... SO FUCKING RETARDED.

Never mind that we have no real power. And that all the Senate ultimately does is play fake Senator. All we're doing is expressing our opinions, which does no real harm that I can see. And any actual decisions are still in the hands of Mr Wong, ultimately. Its not like we gave the entire House admin powers or something.

Seriously, other than the Coliseum threads, which could SO just be stickied in OT or *GASP* The Coliseum forum, the only mildly productive threads are the mod threads and there you have people like ME being nominated. Come the fuck on. Seriously. (I do appreciate the vote of confidence Kendall.)

I believe ordinary board members cannot open threads in the Coliseum.

And seriously, you'd be a great mod. You're certainly enough of a jerk towards us ordinary stupid posters.

And surprise, the only consensus that this recent crop of whining and bitching has brought about is that we need more moderation. No fucking shit you bunch of dumbass Sherlocks. It only takes a cursory glance at the board index page and the list of Mods for the different forums to figure that out. And do you know who already came to that conclusion back in August? The Senate. Did they act on it? No. Slow to act on it? Yes. So fucking what. It isn't their JOB to act on it. Maybe when it IS their job, you will have some legitimate gripes.

So we agreed with the Senate, and did as much as we could to fix the problem as the Senate did, which is essentially nothing beyond advising those with the power to do so to act. This proves what, exactly?

Discuss, flame, yell and scream, make strong arguments for or against, HoS. (Which would be my preferred choice, so there was less evidence that I posted in this place.)

I see nothing wrong with giving everyone a chance to express their opinions on the board. Their will be a lot of dumb shit, yes, but how likely is it that that will be acted on anyway? It gives those people a place to rant harmlessly, and now and then you'll actually get an idea with some merit. And in the end, if you don't like it, no one will make you read it.

[Ghost Rider]

I understand Havok's frustration, which is why most of the ideas get filtered until you see one that has merit and ignore the rest. Right now, aside from laughing a bit, I haven't seen much of the merit bit, but time will eventually surprise me. So far most have been nitpicking of rules we have in place, laziness to avoid actually contacting a moderator when a rule violation takes place, or finally a want for a more ruthless nature of moderation to be take place.

[Coyote]

I hate to say it... well, no I don't. Seriously-- when people gripe about what "those fuckers in charge" are doing, sometimes the best way to deal with it is to put the people griping in a position of responsibility. Then you can see what an exercise in frustration things can be.

The HoC has been called "Senate Lite" and there's merit in that. We see the same dynamics unfolding-- a handful of people participate, there's little input or feedback, what input & feedback you do get isn't helpful, and instead of having people come to you with useful ideas, you get a flood of fluffy Smurf Village issues with a few good ideas buried deep inside.

This leads me to the conclusion that a lot of the calls of "it's broken! Let's fix it!" represents only a small portion of participants. I mentioned in another thread that out of some 3000+ potential participants here, barely a dozen have taken the time & effort to use the HoC. When I said that the echoing silence implies either consent, satisfaction, or disinterest, at least one poster spoke up to say that, at least as far as he was concerned, that was indeed the case.

I'm going to remind folks of a truisim about business & politics, one that I think applies here: Treat each complaint as an individual complaint. Treat each compliment as if it were 10 compliments. Because satisfied people don't speak up. They have no need to-- they're satisfied. Unsatisfied people are guaranteed to speak up, however.

And to that, we go to the next scale, something i found out when I was doing my comics regularly and selling them at conventions and published in fanzines: There's four types of feedback.

1: "That's so cool! You're the best!" --ego-gratifying but useless.
2: "I really dig your stuff, and here's why..." --very, very useful. Keep those.
3: "I don't like your stuff, and here's why..." --very, very useful. Keep those.
4: "This shit sucks! You suck!" --waste of their time and mine.

Progress can only be made if things are kept useful.

[The Romulan Republic]

I understand Havok's frustration, which is why most of the ideas get filtered until you see one that has merit and ignore the rest. Right now, aside from laughing a bit, I haven't seen much of the merit bit, but time will eventually surprise me. So far most have been nitpicking of rules we have in place, laziness to avoid actually contacting a moderator when a rule violation takes place, or finally a want for a more ruthless nature of moderation to be take place.

Just a nitpick, but I'm not sure much of it can be put down to laziness. After all, its not that much less difficult and time consuming to post here rather than PM a mod. Coming here rather than to a mod is probably more the result of attention-seeking, and/or intimidation by/dissatisfaction with the moderatorial staff. I'm not saying those are nessissarily good reasons, but they're probably more accurate ones.

[Coyote]

I like having problems posted publicly. There are a number of reasons for that.

First, if you post a problem publicly, with your name on it, you may think hard about if this is really a problem or if it is just a personal issue. As a filtration system this doesn't always work (plenty of personal WAAAHs have been aired all over) but I think it adds at least one last speedbump before hitting "submit".

Second, you may have a legitimate gripe that has been overlooked, and there may be others that feel the same way. If someone has the backbone to post it out in the open, and a chorus of followers develops, then it is indeed an issue that needs to be looked at.

Third, I personally would rather that stuff come out to the light of day rather than fester in dark unspoken resentment. That's how stuff collects up and then boils over one day in an explosive fit. Drama. Bad.

[General Zod]

Just a nitpick, but I'm not sure much of it can be put down to laziness. After all, its not that much less difficult and time consuming to post here rather than PM a mod. Coming here rather than to a mod is probably more the result of attention-seeking, and/or intimidation by/dissatisfaction with the moderatorial staff. I'm not saying those are nessissarily good reasons, but they're probably more accurate ones.

I don't normally bother PMing moderators because when they constantly remind you that it's not your place to criticize the board because you're a pleb, and when you aren't even guaranteed they'll do more than delete your PM, what's the point?

[The Romulan Republic]

Just a nitpick, but I'm not sure much of it can be put down to laziness. After all, its not that much less difficult and time consuming to post here rather than PM a mod. Coming here rather than to a mod is probably more the result of attention-seeking, and/or intimidation by/dissatisfaction with the moderatorial staff. I'm not saying those are nessissarily good reasons, but they're probably more accurate ones.

I don't normally bother PMing moderators because when they constantly remind you that it's not your place to criticize the board because you're a pleb, and when you aren't even guaranteed they'll do more than delete your PM, what's the point?

Well I believe this was specifically about PM moderators over rule violations, but fair point.

[General Zod]

Well I believe this was specifically about PM moderators over rule violations, but fair point.

It applies to that too. I don't know whether or not they're going to chew me out for playing mod half the time by PMing them, so, again, I don't see the point in doing so.

[Ghost Rider]

So wait a sec...who the fuck does that? And before you go "Well, I contacted a mod once...", that's anecdotal evidence. If this is a large enough problem then THIS NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT UP versus half of this mundane navel gazing shit we've seen.

Seriously that is specfically why the PMing the moderator exists. It's why Mike fucking pointed it out. We are there, but we are not fucking everywhere. It is exactly the fucking reason why warnings, and the other new buttons exist.

[Ghost Rider]

I understand Havok's frustration, which is why most of the ideas get filtered until you see one that has merit and ignore the rest. Right now, aside from laughing a bit, I haven't seen much of the merit bit, but time will eventually surprise me. So far most have been nitpicking of rules we have in place, laziness to avoid actually contacting a moderator when a rule violation takes place, or finally a want for a more ruthless nature of moderation to be take place.

Just a nitpick, but I'm not sure much of it can be put down to laziness. After all, its not that much less difficult and time consuming to post here rather than PM a mod. Coming here rather than to a mod is probably more the result of attention-seeking, and/or intimidation by/dissatisfaction with the moderatorial staff. I'm not saying those are nessissarily good reasons, but they're probably more accurate ones.

Then you're being a part of the spam crowd.

[General Zod]

So wait a sec...who the fuck does that? And before you go "Well, I contacted a mod once...", that's anecdotal evidence. If this is a large enough problem then THIS NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT UP versus half of this mundane navel gazing shit we've seen.

I've never seen it personally (the second one at least), but that's just the perception that a lot of moderators give off. Besides the fact that it's sometimes difficult to really tell whether or not something's a rule violation, and you don't want to waste their time if they've already looked into it but decided not to do anything.

[Ghost Rider]

So wait a sec...who the fuck does that? And before you go "Well, I contacted a mod once...", that's anecdotal evidence. If this is a large enough problem then THIS NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT UP versus half of this mundane navel gazing shit we've seen.

I've never seen it personally (the second one at least), but that's just the perception that a lot of moderators give off. Besides the fact that it's sometimes difficult to really tell whether or not something's a rule violation, and you don't want to waste their time if they've already looked into it but decided not to do anything.

So wait a fucking second. We have the PM system, we have the goddamn warnings, we have a single point by a few mods going "Please don't use these just for frivolous use." which are meant to conatct moderators on a problem, BUT because a perception that board moderators are sometime douches...this means this goes to waste?

As for rule violation, then look at the rules and if nothing specfic, then put up a warning with something that says "No specific rule violation but has these problems with logic." and cite the problems. Mind you if you put something that violates some illogcal notion that it makes your balls feel itchy, that will be ignored. But if it is legitimate, then it will be looked at.

One moderator may be a douche, then you go to another or you contact an admin(there's three...not everything has to go to Mike) and report this because the moderator is not fucking doing their job, because that is what they volunteered for and why they get so many buttons.

[Edi]

I have had people contact me to ask about whether something is a violation or other sort of problem and I always check them out since it is part of what I'm supposed to do. That was before my promotion. when I was still just a Horseman and later had OT specifically on my bailiwick.

I think I flamed a couple of people to a cinder because they came at me telling me what I should do or whined that somebody else had flamed them because they had gone backseat mod on that person and taken it on themselves to set the (often new) other poster straight. But never someone who just asked something.

In case it's unclear to anyone, if you think there is a problem (IvP moratorium violation, other rule breaking, trolling or whatever), the correct thing to do is to PM mod with something like:

"Hey, I saw this and was wondering if it needs looking at?"

If the mod just flames you back, bring the issue and the mod's response up with another one or one of the admins.

[Thanas]

Every moderator I have contacted has always been helpful, so I honestly do not know where the "I fear to contact a moderator" crowd comes from. I have never been flamed for doing so, but that may be because I actually take time to think before "bothering" them.

[RogueIce]

As for rule violation, then look at the rules and if nothing specfic, then put up a warning with something that says "No specific rule violation but has these problems with logic." and cite the problems. Mind you if you put something that violates some illogcal notion that it makes your balls feel itchy, that will be ignored. But if it is legitimate, then it will be looked at.

Um, if I'm reading you right you said to use the Report button for rules violations? Because the very first thing the announcement tells you not to use it for is rules violations. It even goes on to say: "It is the job of the moderators to determine if rules have been broken, not regular users."

I'm not sure if you were talking about PMs or the nifty little report button we now have, so some clarification would be nice.

[Ghost Rider]

As for rule violation, then look at the rules and if nothing specfic, then put up a warning with something that says "No specific rule violation but has these problems with logic." and cite the problems. Mind you if you put something that violates some illogcal notion that it makes your balls feel itchy, that will be ignored. But if it is legitimate, then it will be looked at.

Um, if I'm reading you right you said to use the Report button for rules violations? Because the very first thing the announcement tells you not to use it for is rules violations. It even goes on to say: "It is the job of the moderators to determine if rules have been broken, not regular users."

I'm not sure if you were talking about PMs or the nifty little report button we now have, so some clarification would be nice.

Given we have a report post button and a warning button. Those are the difference.

If you don't care for the buttons because of the confusion of which one, there's always the PMs that you can put forward as well.

[RogueIce]

Given we have a report post button and a warning button. Those are the difference.

If you don't care for the buttons because of the confusion of which one, there's always the PMs that you can put forward as well.

I don't know about you, but for me there's only one: the red exclamation point (!) report post button. If there's some seperate "warning" button I don't see it.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't know about you, but for me there's only one: the red exclamation point (!) report post button. If there's some seperate "warning" button I don't see it.

The warning button is mods-only - to all intents and purposes it's the same as PM'ing someone to give them a bollocking, but has the advantage of referring them to a specific post that's out of line.

[X-Ray Blues]

Hi folks. RedImperator here.

I thought I'd reply to this thread because I was the one who wrote the rules for the Report button in the first place. I wrote the rules specifically so the report button would be the board "fire alarm", to alert mods to serious problems, and not to general rules violations. I did this because 1) I didn't want to encourage a vigilante attitude, and 2) I didn't want the report page cluttered up with frivolous warnings. Now, I do recall Mike saying, in one of the "fix the board" threads, that users could use the warning button to call mods' attention to logical fallacies, bad debating, that kind of thing, which is the opposite of the rules I wrote (and Ozymandias posted). So be it; it's his board. But the rules were never updated, so it's not unreasonable that most board members wouldn't use it for that; they can't be expected to follow every post Mike makes.

As for the warning button, I can confirm that non-moderators do not have access to that function (Jesus Christ, can you imagine what it would look like if they did? MrCoffee alone would probably have six hundred warnings).

This concludes this public service announcement. Now, back to editing the Project That Never Ends.

[Stark]

Hav's just bitter that with all the terrible and unworkable ideas throw around in here, complaining about the Senate has become 'uncool'.

[Phantasee]

This idea and place are fucking stupid.

The Senate is fine the way it is and doesn't need an advisory body of retards. Mike and the Admins and Mods certainly don't. And if they felt they did, they would have made one... OH WAIT!

A constitution for democracy? A public defender? Bicameral legislation? Choosing Mods? Troll actors? Are you fucking kidding me.

See, this is why the Senate STOPPED nominating new members, because those that were worth letting in are either in, would never join or are chalked full of stupid ideas.

Yes, YOUR ideas are stupid. Get over it. Not every one is a special little unique snowflake that can contribute something. Some one has to be the janitor and construction worker.

I am a construction worker, and I'm not so deluded or arrogant to think other wise. I contribute as best I can, but I don't have great ideas or anything truly profound to add and neither do you. The sooner YOU learn that you are not Publius or Simplicus or Darth Wong or whoever you look up to and aspire to be like or be respected by, the better.

No, the Senate isn't perfect and YES it is a popularity contest at times and YES it is an old boys club at times and yes they get "perks". So fucking what! Are you gonna fucking cry? Newsflash: Life isn't fair. Not everyone is treated equally. Some people get the shaft. Some people are just plain fucking dumb and no one wants to hear what they have to say.

There is a whole group of people on this board that I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A SAY IN HOW THINGS ARE RUN. YOU are in that group. You are in here playing fake Senator, which is just... SO FUCKING RETARDED.

Seriously, other than the Coliseum threads, which could SO just be stickied in OT or *GASP* The Coliseum forum, the only mildly productive threads are the mod threads and there you have people like ME being nominated. Come the fuck on. Seriously. (I do appreciate the vote of confidence Kendall.)

And surprise, the only consensus that this recent crop of whining and bitching has brought about is that we need more moderation. No fucking shit you bunch of dumbass Sherlocks. It only takes a cursory glance at the board index page and the list of Mods for the different forums to figure that out. And do you know who already came to that conclusion back in August? The Senate. Did they act on it? No. Slow to act on it? Yes. So fucking what. It isn't their JOB to act on it. Maybe when it IS their job, you will have some legitimate gripes.

Discuss, flame, yell and scream, make strong arguments for or against, HoS. (Which would be my preferred choice, so there was less evidence that I posted in this place.)

I have to second this. Damnit, now I ruined my perfect record of ZERO posts in this shit hole. FUCK.

I haven't posted here for pretty much the same reasons as Havok outlined in his post. I think all the try hards who couldn't get into the Senate were the ones pushing for this. Hell, Testing was pretty useful as far as needing to vent about board drama. Plus it autodeletes so people can't hold it against you months later. Making a formal forum is going to discourage this sort of activity, because now it will be scrutinized in the board proper, and left on the record for a long time (forever).