Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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WASHINGTON, D.C. – Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Fish and Wildlife and Parks Lyle Laverty today announced that the Department of the Interior has finalized updated regulations governing the possession of firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges. The final rule, which updates existing regulations, would allow an individual to carry a concealed weapon in national parks and wildlife refuges if, and only if, the individual is authorized to carry a concealed weapon under state law in the state in which the national park or refuge is located. The update has been submitted to the Federal Register for publication and is available to the public on http://www.doi.gov.

Existing regulations regarding the carrying of firearms remain otherwise unchanged, particularly limitations on poaching and target practice and prohibitions on carrying firearms in federal buildings.

“America was founded on the idea that the federal and state governments work together to serve the public and preserve our natural resources,” Laverty said. “The Department’s final regulation respects this tradition by allowing individuals to carry concealed firearms in federal park units and refuges to the extent that they could lawfully do so under state law. This is the same basic approach adopted by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the United States Forest Service (USFS), both of which allow visitors to carry weapons consistent with applicable federal and state laws.”

On February 22, 2008, Interior Secretary Kempthorne responded to letters from 51 Senators, both Democrats and Republicans, as well as from the Chairman and Ranking Member of the House Natural Resources Committee, urging him to update existing regulations that prohibit the carrying of firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges. In his response, the Secretary directed Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks Lyle Laverty “to develop and propose for public comment by April 30 Federal regulations that will update firearms policies on these lands to reflect existing Federal laws (such as those prohibiting weapons in Federal buildings) and the laws by which the host states govern transporting and carrying of firearms on their analogous public lands.”

Changes in the final regulations from those originally proposed in April were developed as the result of public comments. In particular, comments expressed concern about the feasibility of implementing regulations which directly linked the carrying of concealed firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges to the ability of an individual to carry a concealed firearm on analogous state lands. The final regulations remove that potential logistical hurdle.

The existing regulations, as currently in effect, were adopted in 1981 for national wildlife refuges and in 1983 for national parks. Since that time many states have enacted new firearms policies. Currently, 48 states have passed legislation allowing for the lawful possession of concealed weapons.

“The Department believes that in managing parks and refuges we should, as appropriate, make every effort to give the greatest respect to the democratic judgments of State legislatures with respect to concealed firearms,” said Laverty. “Federal agencies have a responsibility to recognize the expertise of the States in this area, and federal regulations should be developed and implemented in a manner that respects state prerogatives and authority.”

Source: U.S. Department of the Interior
I apologize for the source. Its rather biased when you get down to it. Thing is, the AP article is pathetic and hardly has anything of value.

Associated Press Article
Ban on Concealed Carry at National Parks Lifted
Friday, December 05, 2008
By Matthew Daly, Associated Press

Washington (AP) - People will now be able to carry concealed weapons in some national parks and wildlife refuges.

The new Interior Department rules allow an individual to carry a loaded weapon in a park or wildlife refuge - but only if the person has a permit for a concealed weapon. The state where the park or refuge is located must also allow guns in parks.

The rule overturns a 25-year-old regulation that has restricted loaded guns in parks and wildlife refuges. The previous regulations required that guns be unloaded and placed somewhere that is not easily accessible, such as in a car trunk.
I must admit that I favor this ruling. This doesn't provide unrestricted carry of firearms in national parks and some national land. What it does it allow the state in question to regulate the issue (and in fact some states effectively ban concealed carry). Receiving a Concealed Carry permit is not an easy thing. You have to demonstrate a working knowledge of firearms and proper safety. You have to go through background checks. I believe some even require registration of the firearms.

A lot of people are talking about self defense from criminals. I say whatever. I am concerned about wild life. I don't know about the national parks those people visit, but I live very close to Glacier National Park. We have a resident population of Wolves, Grizzly's, Mountain Lions, and Black Bears. We have bear maulings every year in the park and have had several fatalities over the years. My parents hike in the mountains in that park, a lot. Two summers ago my dad had almost 400 miles in the back country by the start of winter. They encountered 3 black bears and 4 grizzlies that year. One encounter was a mother grizzly and two cubs. She started growling at them. I ran into a black bear just this summer in the park, and I only went 4 times this year.

So my personal concern is over the wildlife, not being mugged. As such, I rather favor this ruling. My mother is rather pro gun control, except she likes it when my dad carries a pistol when they are outside the park. This news has her jazzed. She wants to get a concealed carry permit this spring so they can legally carry in the park.

Anyway, I see some possible backlash over this ruling change. I have no doubt that several groups will scream bloody murder. I can't blame them, and I can't exactly disagree with many of their arguments. It will be interesting to see how this changes when Obama enters office. He can only sign laws that congress sends him, but on the national parks he can change their rules through an executive order and change the new rules in a heart beat.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by General Zod »

See, now this is a justification for carry/conceal I can get behind. It doesn't make sense to lug around a rifle if you're just going hiking or camping, so there's not a whole lot of alternatives if you accidentally stumble across dangerous animals and need to defend yourself. Long as the standards are emphasized for proper training I don't see any real issues in allowing this.

Just don't issue permits to any former (once Obama officially takes office) Vice Presidents and things should be fine.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Wicked Pilot »

I understand the desire to defend oneself against wild animals, but what is the rational to allow concealment?
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Wicked Pilot wrote:I understand the desire to defend oneself against wild animals, but what is the rational to allow concealment?
Don't want to scare the tourists with the sight of a weapon.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Ender »

I'm just wondering what you can back that could be concealed carry and be good against animals. A pistol is better then nothing, but as I understand it shot guns and rifles are used for hunting because they are good at taking down animals, while pistols are not.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Stark »

Yeah, I was thinking that even larger pistols are considered only 'last ditch' weapons by most hunters, isn't that true? The kinds of handguns the average person would own would seem to be nigh useless against dangerous animals.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Beowulf »

Ender wrote:I'm just wondering what you can back that could be concealed carry and be good against animals. A pistol is better then nothing, but as I understand it shot guns and rifles are used for hunting because they are good at taking down animals, while pistols are not.
.44 Magnum? Pistols generally aren't used for hunting because they're inherently less accurate platforms. That, combined with generally needing to shoot at ranges greater than 25 yards means that pistols aren't really that great for hunting. However, when protecting yourself against large dangerous game, the lower accuracy is moot.

That said, it's possible to hunt with a pistol, and it's a semi-popular sport.

Oh, and as to exactly the gun you could pack: Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Ender »

Beowulf wrote: However, when protecting yourself against large dangerous game, the lower accuracy is moot.
Wouldn't the exact opposite be true? If I'm getting charged by a bear, I want tot make sure I hit the thing. And while it is closer range, you are likely going to be scared which will throw off your aim.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Ender wrote:
Beowulf wrote: However, when protecting yourself against large dangerous game, the lower accuracy is moot.
Wouldn't the exact opposite be true? If I'm getting charged by a bear, I want tot make sure I hit the thing. And while it is closer range, you are likely going to be scared which will throw off your aim.
A rifle's superior accuracy at 100 meters is moot when you've got a bear in your face. In Canada, guys who go prospecting in the bush sometimes carry a big handgun for close range encounters and a rifle for longer range encounters when getting the gun into play at close range real damn fast isn't a matter of life and death.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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While Shotguns are the best defense against wild animals, they are not suitable for all situations. Pistols are light and easy to carry. Easy to get at and fast to aim. I am eventually going to get myself a nice .357 magnum revolver with 8 round capacity.

As for pistols that are good self defense against animals. Any magnum round is suitable. Surprisingly, 9mm isn't bad. It doesn't have very much stopping power, but it can penetrate bear hide and has very little recoil. .40cal is better because it still has suitable penetration with far superior stopping power. Strangely enough, the .45ACP is a horrible bear round. It has very low muzzle velocity and is hard pressed to penetrate very deep into a bear.

I hike with a Glock22. 15 round capacity .40cal pistol with one backup magazine. My parents both carry bear spray. A fine compromise in my book. Though I have thought of getting a 357 Sig pistol. A 9mm round on a .40cal cartridge. Extremely high penetrating power.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Glocksman »

A 9mm round on a .40cal cartridge. Extremely high penetrating power.
Wasn't the .357 SIG designed to reproduce the ballistics of the 125gr .357 Magnum hollowpoint round?

Back on subject, I have no problem with CCW being legal in national parks in states where CCW itself is legal.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Glocksman wrote:Wasn't the .357 SIG designed to reproduce the ballistics of the 125gr .357 Magnum hollowpoint round?
Something like that. The 357 SIG (its not .357, just 357) matches the lower end of the spectrum on the .357 Magnum. I hesitate to call the 357 SIG a magnum round itself. I would consider the 10mm Auto a better comparison.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Count Chocula »

At last, some rational behavior from the National Park Service!

The primary dangers I've seen (in Virginia, California, and Florida) are cougars, bears, snakes and gators. In California, while sleeping in a fart sack by a log without a tent, I heard a cougar walk past my campsite not fifty feet away from me! My sweaty hands were gripping an illicitly carried pistol at the time.

For bear, I'd recommend a .44 Magnum. Concealed carry could simply be a vest over a shoulder holster; the farther out you get into the backwoods, the less fuss people you meet make about guns. A .40 or .357 SIG would be pretty good for cougar or wolves, or even gators, while .22 or .410 snakeshot is ideal for backwoods Florida and its various small reptiles.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Solauren »

You don't need a pistol to be powerful to discourage a dangerous animal.

Most of them would be 'directed off' by the loud noise.

However, yes, if the animal is charging, you want something that is easy to aim, light, and with alot of power.

Hollow Points or Armor Piercers would probably be best against something like a Bear.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Solauren wrote:You don't need a pistol to be powerful to discourage a dangerous animal.

Most of them would be 'directed off' by the loud noise.

However, yes, if the animal is charging, you want something that is easy to aim, light, and with alot of power.

Hollow Points or Armor Piercers would probably be best against something like a Bear.
Hollow point is the worst round to use against a bear. Its going to mushroom up without any real penetration.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Count Chocula wrote:At last, some rational behavior from the National Park Service!

The primary dangers I've seen (in Virginia, California, and Florida) are cougars, bears, snakes and gators. In California, while sleeping in a fart sack by a log without a tent, I heard a cougar walk past my campsite not fifty feet away from me! My sweaty hands were gripping an illicitly carried pistol at the time.

For bear, I'd recommend a .44 Magnum. Concealed carry could simply be a vest over a shoulder holster; the farther out you get into the backwoods, the less fuss people you meet make about guns. A .40 or .357 SIG would be pretty good for cougar or wolves, or even gators, while .22 or .410 snakeshot is ideal for backwoods Florida and its various small reptiles.
When you have a semi automatic with plenty of ammunition, the .40cal is just fine against a bear.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Ender wrote: Wouldn't the exact opposite be true? If I'm getting charged by a bear, I want tot make sure I hit the thing. And while it is closer range, you are likely going to be scared which will throw off your aim.
If you aim you can easily hit a bear with a handgun at any range it’s likely to attack from, pistols aren't THAT bad accuracy wise. If you’re too jittery to aim, having a rifle will not help, any weapon can and will miss even at very short ranges if not decently aimed. In fact a rifle might make things worse since it’s longer, clumsier and you have to carry it slung, most likely across the back, rather then ready to go from a holster. Usually if you get attacked by a wild animal, it’s because you encountered it in dense brush at VERY close range and surprised it.

Also evenrifles cannot be relied upon to stop a bear with one shot, or even two or three, so a weapon you can shoot rapidly is probably more important then the firepower of any one round. That means the the best gun is the gun you are personally more comfortable with so you can get off those repeated shots quickly, within reason. Don't go try to stop a bear with a .22cal target pistol.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Sidewinder »

Regarding bears: The Gun Digest Book of the Glock recommended 10 mm Auto. I know the ammo has a reputation for being hard to handle, i.e., powerful recoil, and the large size of guns chambered for it, which means people with small hands have problems gripping the weapon. Can any serious shooters, i.e., someone who's fired guns of multiple makes and models, and who practices regularly, able to comment on this?
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Count Chocula »

Regarding the 10mm: yes, it's a long cartridge that fires a large bullet at magnum velocities. The FBI had the S&W 1076 10mm developed for its use, but discovered in testing that its female (and some male) agents had a hard time getting their hands around the grips and were having a hard time handling the recoil. This led to the development of the shorter .40 Smith & Wesson, which is a standard round for the FBI and numerous local and federal agencies today.

I've had the pleasure of firing both the Colt Delta Elite and Glock 20, both in 10mm. The Delta Elite is a single stack semi, built on the venerable Colt 1911 .45 platform. The 10mm load has a heck of a kick, greater than the .45ACP but more controllable than a .357Magnum revolver.

The Glock 20's barrel and slide are lower in height than the Delta Elite, and the recoil force is lower in the shooter's hand. In my experience it's easy to control with a two-hand grip, but I don't own one because I don't like the Glock's grip angle.

The "small hands" issue is largely due to most service pistols these days being semiautomatics, rather than revolvers, a result of the trend toward having lots of less-energetic rounds carried rather than six magnum rounds available. Even petite ladies can fire a .44 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk revolver, for example, while those petite ladies may not be able to get a secure grip on a Desert Eagle .44 Magnum semiauto. There are also numerous aftermarket grips to fit revolvers to any size hand, unlike semis which have definite frame size limitations.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by The Kernel »

If you are worried about Bears, you could always consider the S&W .500 Magnum...

Image

This thing makes a .44 magnum look positively tiny by comparison. I shot both a couple months back side-by-side and the .500 was a freaking canon by comparison. Not for the squeemish though...this gun kicks like a bitch.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Count Chocula »

Damn. How's that compare to the .50AE? The case looks about 25% larger. I fired a .50 Desert Eagle a few years ago and it had a hella kick.
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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

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Count Chocula wrote:Damn. How's that compare to the .50AE? The case looks about 25% larger. I fired a .50 Desert Eagle a few years ago and it had a hella kick.
I've never fired a Desert Eagle before, but I'm told the .500 is a much more powerful round. I'm no expert though, so don't quote me on it.

However, I think this picture sums it up nicely (the other gun is a S&W .44 Magnum):

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Re: Concealed Carry now legal in US National Parks

Post by Sidewinder »

When S & W first introduced the 500, they posted a caliber comparison chart on their website (I don't know if it's still available at www.smith-wesson.com).
500 S & W: 2600 ft/lb (muzzle energy)
454 Casull: 1900 ft/lb
480 Ruger: 1315 ft/lb
.44 Magnum: 900 ft/lb
.357 Magnum: 500 ft/lb
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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