Record players (turntables?)

[Bounty]

My parents still have quite a few old record, so I was considering buying them a record player for Christmas; Thing is, I don't know the first thing about them, so:

• - I know they still make record players for DJ's and such, but are there any entry-level consumer models you can buy new?
  
  - What do I need to look out for when buying one of these? In particular, what sort of speeds would it need to play your average mid-seventies hubcap-sized record?
  
  - Do these things last? I'd be willing to buy one used, if new ones are hard to come by, but not if they degrade too much with use. Or can you easily fix one up with user-replaceable parts? I'm assuming the needle is going to be the first part to go, are those easy to come by?

I know there are audiophiles here, and I'd love to hear from them; but please keep in mind that I'm not looking for professional or exceptional-quality equipment, just a player to listen to once in a while for nostalgia's sake.

[salm]

My parents still have quite a few old record, so I was considering buying them a record player for Christmas; Thing is, I don't know the first thing about them, so:

• - I know they still make record players for DJ's and such, but are there any entry-level consumer models you can buy new?

AFAIK Dual still produces good consumer models.

- What do I need to look out for when buying one of these? In particular, what sort of speeds would it need to play your average mid-seventies hubcap-sized record?

You´ll need 33 for regular records and 45 for singles.
Look out for a player that comes with a good needle.

- Do these things last? I'd be willing to buy one used, if new ones are hard to come by, but not if they degrade too much with use. Or can you easily fix one up with user-replaceable parts? I'm assuming the needle is going to be the first part to go, are those easy to come by?[/list]

Yeah, they last. The needle has to be replaced from time to time so if you buy a used one check if you can still get needles.

[salm]

Personally i´ve got a Dual CS 455 which is about 10 years old, has never been broken and never been any trouble. New ones sell for around 300€.
There are cheaper ones, such as the Dual CS 410 which sells for around 100€ or the Dual CS 415 and CS 435 which sell for around 200€. I´ve never tried one these but they should be ok for a start.

[Bounty]

If it's lucky it'll be used ten times a year, so anything that's on-par with what an entry-level turntable would have sounded like back in the day will do.

[YT300000]

You can get some pretty good deals on used players, but you do have to make sure everything is in working order. The balance and anti-skating on the tonearm need to be properly adjustable, which you can most easily check by putting on a blank record (smooth flip side of a single, etc). You will probably have to replace the old stylus so as to not scratch up your vinyl - the Shure M92E is a great cartridge, and will work with just about anything, so I'd recommend one of those. Other styli can be better, but they're often expensive and finicky, and you can easily spend as much on them as on a used record player.

Now, as to the gramophone itself. The difference between belt and direct drive systems is pretty insignificant for listening, so any turntable in working order should be fine. Cheaper direct drive models may not run at the right speed, but as long as you've got a good servomotor, it should be dead-on.

The gramophone you'll see pushed the most heavily is probably the Technics SL-1200, which is fine for listening, but became famous as a DJ table. It has a lot of forwards and backwards speeds and a good tonearm, so it should fulfill your needs. Pioneer also made some excellent record players, and I'm sure someone (probably Aerius) will come by very soon and tell you about some of the great Denon models. I personally use a JVC QL-F4, with quartz-locking direct drive. It can't play 78's or go in reverse, but it has an extremely smooth playback.

So, my best advice is really just to try a few out, and see which you like best. Ultimately, it's your cartridge, amp, mixer and speakers that will make the real difference - all you need from the table is a working motor and tonearm.

[Bounty]

Amp and mixer? Are there models with those built-in? I'd like to keep things simple if at all possible...

[YT300000]

Well, if you already have a stereo system, then you can just plug the gramophone into the Phono jack. However, check that it does have RCA inputs first, since lots of modern (post 2000) stereo receivers don't bother with them anymore, which is a shame.

If you're starting from scratch then you could buy a player with a built-in amp, but you're probably looking at a much higher price point. Hell, the only one I know of is by T + A Elektroakustik, and it costs $2000. It's possible that some companies like Sony or JVC make cheaper ones, but new turntables tend to be exclusively of the audiophile variety, so I wouldn't hold out for it.

Hence my recommendation to buy used, it'll probably be much cheaper to get a used turntable and amp. I bought my (quite excellent) stereo setup for about $50, because the previous owners had just purchased a flashy new digital set. Though I do need to get new speakers, and I may splurge on some B&O's after saving so much money...

[charlemagne]

Amp and mixer? Are there models with those built-in? I'd like to keep things simple if at all possible...

Of course you'll need an amp, just like with cd players There are models with built-in amp, but nowadays, they're 100% complete rubbish. Don't get a new one like they're advertised by mailorder shops sometimes. All they'll do is destroy your records and sound like crap. Dual built good all-in-one systems in the 70ies:



But they're hard to come by in good working order, most times the amp needs more work than the turntable, but I don't think it'll be worth the effort.

So your amp will need a dedicated Phono jack. Many new ones don't bother with Phono jacks anymore, which is bad, because if you plug the turntable into AUX or CD you won't hear a thing. The output of the cartridge is very low and needs to be modulated and amplified before you can listen to it.

If the amp only has e.g. AUX, there's external phono boxes you can put between turntable and amp, and it will do the same thing as a phono jack.

German brand Dual still produces new and affordable turntables, nothing of the high-end audiophile kind, but usable and not some worthless disc-scratchers. Another affordable brand may be Project, but I don't have any first-hand experience with them.

Be advised though that setting up a turntable is not easy plug-and-play. You need to fiddle with tonearm balance and stuff and there's knobs to be turned and adjusted. When buying used, replacing the whole cartridge, not just the needle, may be in order, and this can be a hard thing if you don't know what you're doing - and it will harm your records and needle pretty badly if not done right. But then again, I guess you parents will have done things like that in the past, so they'll know their way around record players (mostly only dads do, though ).

[Bounty]

Bah. I was always under the impression that record players were self-contained. This blows. Blows chunks.

So, lay it out in simple terms for me. I'll need the turntable itself, with a cartridge (that's... the bit that holds the needle?) and a needle in good working order, make sure these are properly set up, an amp, and speakers?

[charlemagne]

Bah. I was always under the impression that record players were self-contained. This blows. Blows chunks.

So, lay it out in simple terms for me. I'll need the turntable itself, with a cartridge (that's... the bit that holds the needle?) and a needle in good working order, make sure these are properly set up, an amp, and speakers?

Yeah. The cartridge is the thing that holds the needle, cartridges last long, while needles need to be replaced depending on how much they're used. You said "maybe 10 records a year", so it'll last a looooong time (years) before it wears out. But when you buy used, you really should replace the needle, because a worn-out needle will do nothing good to your records. You need an amp with a Phono jack to jack it up to, and of course you need speakers in case the power supply hum isn't music to your ears.

Oh, and why would record players be self-contained? They're just another source to jack up to your stereo, like cassette players, cd players, reel-to-reel tape recorders... a turntable isn't a grammophone Ah, you kids with your boomboxes and iPods don't know the real audio way any more

[Bounty]

I'm a child of the cassette era. Our audio devices don't require a degree and a toolkit to work

[charlemagne]

I'm a child of the cassette era. Our audio devices don't require a degree and a toolkit to work

That's why turntables are elite and serious business But seriously, it's not that hard. Turntables come with manuals that explain how to adjust everything, and if you're not suffering from Parkison you won't have major problems doing it.

[Bounty]

Looking around, it seems like most shops only carry $400+ DJ turntables. I did come across this model; I like the fact that it's automated, but at the same time that feels cheaty and error-prone.

Would this be a good choice?

[YT300000]

Don't be nervous about automated systems - they're extremely simple, and even if they do break, you can just manually put the tonearm on the record. What's far more important if you're worried about scratches, is to make sure that the record player has an up/down control, so that the needle is properly lowered.

This table has that, but it looks like it also has a built-in cartridge, so you will only be able to replace the needle. Needless to say, I'd be a bit suspicious of the sound quality that you'll get from whatever sort of amp and cartridge they'll give you for $100, you'll probably suffer a loss in upper-mid and treble definition.

[charlemagne]

I don't know this model, but to be honest, it looks like crap. Full-plastic stuff like that just doesn't seem right. But I could be totally wrong and it could be a model worth it's money.

Btw, "automatic" only means the turntable will move the tonarm by itself after you press a button. I never got what's supposed to be good about it, because on most turntables this takes longer than you moving the tonarm yourself would.

Most turntables after 1970 or so are "half-automatic", which means the tonarm will move back once it reaches the end of the record.

I'd recommend a Dual Because I'm a patriot. Yeah. I have no idea if the current models are sold all over Europe, but a model like this one, the CS415-2 would be a good "beginner's choice". It's nothing fancy, but a solid inexpensive turntable that will do a fine job for a few records a year. I actually have one of those, I needed a cheap replacement a couple of years ago because my dad's grand old CS714q needed a new stylus and some minor repairs which I couldn't afford back then.

[YT300000]

Only 0.035% flutter?

That's pretty impressive, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised, being that it's German audio equipment. I know I'll never get rid of my Klipsch and Sennheiser gear.

[charlemagne]

Only 0.035% flutter?

That's pretty impressive, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised, being that it's German audio equipment. I know I'll never get rid of my Klipsch and Sennheiser gear.

Sennheiser is Austrian, and Klipsch is US But yeah, Klipsch is great, I have two newer shelf speakers (RB-25) right here on my desk, and boy the pack some punch.

I'm just a Dual whore, because that brand once was quite the pinnacle of German turntable manufacturing. The mentioned 714q is one fine piece of audio equipment. It's direct drive, so audio "elite" purists will look down on it, but it runs without real major problems since 1980. I just love it

[YT300000]

Yeah, and Einstein was American too. It's more important as to what the design philosophy is than where the company is based. But yeah, you're right.

I never understood the problem people had with direct drive, anyways, any decent model will just about perfectly absorb the lateral vibration from the motor before it gets to the platter; and timing is more precise.

[charlemagne]

I never understood the problem people had with direct drive, anyways, any decent model will just about perfectly absorb the lateral vibration from the motor before it gets to the platter; and timing is more precise.

Yeah, and also, one less wearing part (belt) you have to worry about. To me, direct drive is the logical "evolution" of turntables, quartz controlled direct drive is the most precise drive you can get.

[aerius]

I have no idea how the new Dual turntables are, but the old ones from the 70's & 80's are pretty darn good. With a good clean record my Dual CS721 sounds better than my CD player, and since it's automatic you just push the lever and it does everything for you, after you get it setup of course.

I have heard the Pro-Jects and I'm pretty happy with them, they're simple, easy to use and sound pretty decent. The entry level Debut III doesn't sound as good as my Dual, but then again it's only about 1/4 of my turntable's inflation adjusted price. Plus it's a manual so you do have to set the needle on the record and lift it off when the side is done. There's nothing I can really complain about on the Debut III since at that price point I haven't heard anything better. My local audio dealer loves them as well, he recommends them for first time buyers looking to get a feel for records and he's got countless happy owners.

[Bounty]

I'm looking at a Technics SL-BD20 right now, which has the advantages of being affordable and available in a store near me. I'm finding out that turntable availability around me is atrocious - hi-fi stores carry nothing except DJ equipment, and online electronics stores are swamped with cheap players that get atrocious reviews. I'd get one off eBay, but I'm jittery about auction sites as-is and without knowing what to ask for from the seller I'd rather not risk it.

The Debut III looked good but the only importer I found is charging a pretty big premium.

[Bounty]

Right then, there's been a change of plans...

I shelved the turntable idea since my sister came up with a better gift, however, people remembered I was looking for one so I now have a Philips AF 677 semi-automatic turntable, bought in 1980, used once and stored since. I've also got the manual and leads, the only part that might be missing is the 33-45rpm adaptor; there's a removable knob in the centre of the platter that might be it, but I very much doubt it.

Now, more questions:

- This thing is pretty old and neglected. What are the odds of it blowing a fuse when I try to plug it in? Are there any special precautions I can take? Anything in particular I need to check? The wires look fine, but the last time I tried to plug something in that hadn't been used in thirty years it took out a fuse and a tablecloth before we got the fire under control.

- Would I need a new stylus, or can I just try the old one? It's been used maybe a dozen times since this thing left the factory; do they degrade over time or only with use?

- The leads have a single plug, a large round thing with a series of small pins in a semi-circle. This plugs in to an adaptor with red and white leads. These go in the stereo, I presume? Would a 1980 plug work with a 1992 stereo or did the plugs change inbetween?

[Vendetta]

- The leads have a single plug, a large round thing with a series of small pins in a semi-circle. This plugs in to an adaptor with red and white leads. These go in the stereo, I presume? Would a 1980 plug work with a 1992 stereo or did the plugs change inbetween?

Yeah, the red and white RCAs haven't changed for ages. I had an amp from the 60s that had them on.

[charlemagne]

the only part that might be missing is the 33-45rpm adaptor; there's a removable knob in the centre of the platter that might be it, but I very much doubt it.

No, that is propably it. This "adaptor" has to be used when you want to play 45 singles with the big inner hole like they're used in jukeboxes. Normal 33 records have smaller holes.

Now, more questions:

- This thing is pretty old and neglected. What are the odds of it blowing a fuse when I try to plug it in? Are there any special precautions I can take? Anything in particular I need to check? The wires look fine, but the last time I tried to plug something in that hadn't been used in thirty years it took out a fuse and a tablecloth before we got the fire under control.

That sounds like just bad luck. If you wanna be cautious try pluggin it in in the garage or something, but personally I've never had old stuff catch fire, even if it's really old stuff I bought off eBay. I once blew a tube in an old tube amp from the 60ies and it smelled really bad But that was it.

I bet it will do just fine, especially if this thing had been in storage for years (which I guess means it was kept safely away from dust and humidity).

- Would I need a new stylus, or can I just try the old one? It's been used maybe a dozen times since this thing left the factory; do they degrade over time or only with use?

Try it out, yeah the thing degrades over time, but not the needle. If it sounds fine, no need to change the cartridge, because I think you're not the type of audiophile who will notice the maybe a tiny bit muffled sound an old cartridge can produce

- The leads have a single plug, a large round thing with a series of small pins in a semi-circle. This plugs in to an adaptor with red and white leads. These go in the stereo, I presume? Would a 1980 plug work with a 1992 stereo or did the plugs change inbetween?

Like Vendetta said: RCA jacks haven't changed since 50 years or so. Red goes to red/right channel, white goes to white or black/left channel, whichever your amp has labeled them.

[Bounty]

According to the manual it's "self-lubricating". Apart from sounding a bit kinky, I wonder if that still holds after a quarter of a century.

I desperately want to test this but I don't have anything that works as an amplifier. Bah. I guess I'll have to amuse myself with checking the counterweight.