Remembering Randy Weaver

[MKSheppard]

Back from West Virginia and Pennsylvania!

Here's something typically Sheppardian to tide you over while I work on
the Imperial Sourcebook!

*****************

Remembering Randy Weaver

by Wally Conger

Big Media is all abuzz right now. "How shall we commemorate the first anniversary of 9/11?" they ask. "Where do you draw the line between a tasteful memorial and too much?"

It’s a safe bet that politicians and pundits will err on the side of "too much."

Meanwhile, another significant anniversary will likely go forgotten by CNN, Donahue, Brocaw, and others.

August 21 marks ten years since the federal government’s siege on the home of Randy Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge in Idaho.

The Weavers have disappeared down an Orwellian memory hole for most Americans. You see, their story doesn’t offer an occasion for waving flags and singing patriotic songs. In fact, despite the tragedy that befell the Weaver family, Randy Weaver is still vilified by major media and so-called liberals for his "crimes and strange beliefs." Those crimes and strange beliefs include distrust of your government.

Randy Weaver had reason to distrust his government. In 1991, an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) entrapped Weaver by hiring him to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.

Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.

Nine days later, Weaver, a badly wounded Harris, and the surviving kids surrendered to federal agents. Eleven months after that, a jury in Boise, Idaho, acquitted Weaver and Harris of murder and conspiracy charges stemming from the government assault.

When the jury came back with its not-guilty verdict, Randy Weaver turned to his lawyer, Gerry Spence. "I’ve learned something about the system," he told Spence. "This is a good system. This system will work."

Weaver was more optimistic than I am. More forgiving, too. In 1995, Congressional hearings into the Weaver tragedy revealed a cover-up, but the feds refused to prosecute the killers of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. Case closed. And despite all the evidence of government wrongdoing, those of us who now mention the name Randy Weaver are generally dismissed as "right-wing, gun-toting, conspiracy nuts."

Today, while the Weaver story is falling through the cracks of history, most Americans look toward the anniversary of 9/11 and demand that the government "do something, anything" to protect them from foreign terrorists — highly trained assassins wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers.

As for me, I will respectfully observe the 9/11 memorials. But I also intend to take a few minutes on August 21, the tenth anniversary of the Siege at Ruby Ridge, to ponder how best to tell the Bad Guys from the Good Guys during these difficult times. And to wonder how wise it is to demand that one band of murderous thugs protect us from another.

August 10, 2002

Wally Conger is a marketing consultant and writer living on California’s central coast.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/conger3.html

[Mr Bean]

If MKSheppard is anything
He's Here

Weaver was a little crazy, The goverment was just being itself
To quote Clancy
People we be terrifed if the Goverment suddly started doing what they said they would

[Darth Wong]

Randy Weaver was a completely useless waste of flesh, and the only reason to "remember" him is to realize that the world is better with him out of it.

Not only was he an Aryan Nations member, general white supremacist, and all-around belligerent asshole, but when cornered by the authorities, he demonstrated that he was a shitty father by using his wife and kid as human shields. Why did he choose to put them in danger, hmm? Patriotism? Righteous fervour? Of course not. Simple self-obsession and fear: "they won't shoot at me if I'm in this cabin with my wife and kid, so I'll stay right here and keep them with me." If he had done nothing wrong as his defenders mindlessly insist, then he should have taken his chances in the court system rather than taking chances with his family's life.

[RayCav of ASVS]

Randy Weaver was a completely useless waste of flesh, and the only reason to "remember" him is to realize that the world is better with him out of it.

Not only was he an Aryan Nations member, general white supremacist, and all-around belligerent asshole, but when cornered by the authorities, he demonstrated that he was a shitty father by using his wife and kid as human shields. Why did he choose to put them in danger, hmm? Patriotism? Righteous fervour? Of course not. Simple self-obsession and fear: "they won't shoot at me if I'm in this cabin with my wife and kid, so I'll stay right here and keep them with me." If he had done nothing wrong as his defenders mindlessly insist, then he should have taken his chances in the court system rather than taking chances with his family's life.

Well, Mike, it only sounds as if Weaver took a page from the Starfleet Handbook of Battle Tactics

Seriously, though, I don't think that excuses two deaths, especially when it wasn't Weaver, but I'd like to hear more information regarding whether it was truly intentional or accidental.

[MKSheppard]

Seriously, though, I don't think that excuses two deaths, especially when it wasn't Weaver, but I'd like to hear more information regarding whether it was truly intentional or accidental.

Well, fuck, this worthless waste of flesh



He's managed to escape MANSLAUGHTER charges for his actions that
resulted in the death of Vicki Weaver.

It's something that always happens....whenever a FEDERAL agent shoots
someone for NO REASON, manslaughter charges are never done, even when
an FBI agent shot a kid RIGHT BETWEEN THE FUCKING EYES with an M-16
for the crime of unbuckling his seatbelt in Maryland.

[RayCav of ASVS]

Randy Weaver was a completely useless waste of flesh, and the only reason to "remember" him is to realize that the world is better with him out of it.

Not only was he an Aryan Nations member, general white supremacist, and all-around belligerent asshole, but when cornered by the authorities, he demonstrated that he was a shitty father by using his wife and kid as human shields. Why did he choose to put them in danger, hmm? Patriotism? Righteous fervour? Of course not. Simple self-obsession and fear: "they won't shoot at me if I'm in this cabin with my wife and kid, so I'll stay right here and keep them with me." If he had done nothing wrong as his defenders mindlessly insist, then he should have taken his chances in the court system rather than taking chances with his family's life.

Well, Mike, it only sounds as if Weaver took a page from the Starfleet Handbook of Battle Tactics

Seriously, though, I don't think that excuses two deaths, especially when it wasn't Weaver, but I'd like to hear more information regarding whether it was truly intentional or accidental.

Actually, I'd like to change it to ONE death...Sammy or whoever deserved it, if only for going out hunting with a gun when he damn well knew there were better armed federal agents out there

[RayCav of ASVS]

Randy Weaver was a completely useless waste of flesh, and the only reason to "remember" him is to realize that the world is better with him out of it.

Not only was he an Aryan Nations member, general white supremacist, and all-around belligerent asshole, but when cornered by the authorities, he demonstrated that he was a shitty father by using his wife and kid as human shields. Why did he choose to put them in danger, hmm? Patriotism? Righteous fervour? Of course not. Simple self-obsession and fear: "they won't shoot at me if I'm in this cabin with my wife and kid, so I'll stay right here and keep them with me." If he had done nothing wrong as his defenders mindlessly insist, then he should have taken his chances in the court system rather than taking chances with his family's life.

Well, Mike, it only sounds as if Weaver took a page from the Starfleet Handbook of Battle Tactics

Seriously, though, I don't think that excuses two deaths, especially when it wasn't Weaver, but I'd like to hear more information regarding whether it was truly intentional or accidental.

Actually, I'd like to change it to ONE death...Sammy or whoever deserved it, if only for going out hunting with a gun when he damn well knew there were better armed federal agents out there

Like I said, tactics taken from Starfleet....

[MKSheppard]

Like I said, tactics taken from Starfleet....

You have to remember, it was a 14 year old boy, and that they DID NOT
KNOW of the federal agents on their property, until the Feds shot their
dog....for the horrible crime of barking at intruders.

On August 21, 1992, the siege began in earnest. Six U.S. marshals, armed and camouflaged, went onto Weaver's property to conduct undercover surveillance. When Weaver's dogs started barking, they shot one of them.

Weaver's 25-year-old friend Kevin Harris and 14-year-old son Sammy and saw the dog die. Sammy Weaver fired his gun towards the agents as his dad yelled for him to come back to the cabin. "I'm coming, Dad," were Sammy Weaver's last words before he was shot in the back and killed by a U.S. marshal.

Kevin Harris, witnessing the agents' killing of the dog and child, fired at the agents in self-defense, killing one of them.

...

On August 22, 1992, Randy Weaver went to see his son's body
in the shack where it lay. He was shot and wounded from behind
by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi. As Weaver struggled back to his house,
Horiuchi assassinated his wife Vicki as she stood in the doorway,
holding their 10-month-old baby.

Although the feds later claimed Vicki Weaver's killing was an
accident, the New York Times reported in 1993 that an internal
FBI report justified the killing by saying she put herself in danger.
Horiuchi testified in court that he was an accurate shot at 200 yards.

Everything about the federal government's actions in this case
is sickening, but possibly the worst was their taunting of the
Weaver family after Vicki Weaver's murder: "Good morning, Mrs.
Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?"
That was one of the FBI's tactics revealed in court records,
reported by Jerry Seper in the Washington Times in
September 1993.

http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby1.htm

The incident led to one of the most intensive internal reviews
of an FBI investigation ever. Attorney General Janet Reno
established a Justice Department task force to investigate the
events at Ruby Ridge. The task force concluded in a 1994 report
that the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team overreacted to the threat of
violence and instituted a shoot-on-sight policy that violated
bureau guidelines and Fourth Amendment restrictions on police
power. The FBI disciplined 12 agents and employees, including
Larry Potts, then the head of its criminal division and now its
deputy director, for their roles in the operation.

The following document, which is contained in theattached files,
is the full text of the task force's unreleased 542-page report,
which was obtained by LEXIS COUNSEL CONNECT.

In the hard copy of this document, some material has been
deleted and marked by the word "Garrity," apparently referring to
U.S. Supreme Court opinion Garrity v. New Jersey (1967). Under
Garrity, government employees must be granted immunity from
criminal prosecution if they provide information during an
administrative investigation.

[CorSec]

Randy Weaver was a completely useless waste of flesh, and the only reason to "remember" him is to realize that the world is better with him out of it.

Actually, Randy and the two youngest children are still alive.

Not only was he an Aryan Nations member, general white supremacist, and all-around belligerent asshole, but when cornered by the authorities, he demonstrated that he was a shitty father by using his wife and kid as human shields. Why did he choose to put them in danger, hmm? Patriotism? Righteous fervour? Of course not. Simple self-obsession and fear: "they won't shoot at me if I'm in this cabin with my wife and kid, so I'll stay right here and keep them with me." If he had done nothing wrong as his defenders mindlessly insist, then he should have taken his chances in the court system rather than taking chances with his family's life.

I won't disagree that he's a supremecist asshole - but despite his beligerence, the on-site commanders made some dumb ass decisions regarding how to apprehend him.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_o ... dy_weaver/

For the totally bored, that's a concise article containing as much of the story as you'll find in one place.[/url]

[MKSheppard]

I won't disagree that he's a supremecist asshole - but despite his beligerence, the on-site commanders made some dumb ass decisions regarding how to apprehend him.

Actually, Randy isn't a white supremacist.

He's a white SEPARATIST.

The difference is vital.

See, SUPREMACISTS, like the late Willie Pierce of the National Alliance,
want to simply kill or drive out the "mud people".

SEPARATISTS, like randy was, don't give a shit, they just don't want to be
NEAR them. Why the hell do you think he was on that mountain?

[CorSec]

Tomayto, tomahto.

[Mr. B]

Good riddance. People like this guy are the reason militia groups and White suprematist/seperatist (sp) have gotten more support. He became a martyr to the white trash.

[Pablo Sanchez]

This seems like a terrible action, but it needs to be remember that Weaver was a heavily armed social malcontent who hated the government. If they had sent a squad car to apprehend him, what do you think would have happened?

[MKSheppard]

This seems like a terrible action, but it needs to be remember that Weaver was a heavily armed social malcontent who hated the government. If they had sent a squad car to apprehend him, what do you think would have happened?

I hate the government too, because they do shit like this:



and they never pay for their actions....

Does that mean that they need to send 400+ Federal Agents and obtain
armored vehicles to take me down?

EDIT: That guy in the pic, was shot in the face by an FBI agent with a M-4 Assault Rifle, for the
CRIME of unbuckling his seatbelt.

After he had been shot, the FBI joked around for an hour, with him bleeding
into the pavement before they finally called an ambulance.

To top it all off, the fucking FBI had a goddamn PICTURE of the car that
the bank robber they were looking for was using, and it looked NOTHING
like the car this guy was driving.

And several months later, the FBI review ruled it a "clean shoot".

And you wonder why I wouldn't shed any tears if tomorrow, the FBI Maryland
Branch Office got blown up?

[RayCav of ASVS]

I honestly have to wonder if Wong is going to reply to further messages from this thread, because I would like to see his opinion. To me, Wong's opinion is the last word. But this thread still has a long time to reach the last word.......

[MKSheppard]

http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/file ... 082301.htm

Since publishing yesterday's Whack'em & Stack'em, Sierra Times
has received many inquiries from folks, some wanting to know,
"exactly what IS a Whack'em & Stack'em?"

Let us explain.

This is a term created here at Sierra Times to identify the 'always
justifiable' law enforcement homicide, or fatal police shooting. The
"whack" means to "kill", and the "stack" means to just keep
counting the bodies, and thanking the Good Lord that even
though more people die in the country each year via cop bullets
than in Russia, we can sleep easy knowing there is always a
"good reason" for killing someone.

What we find so fascinating about this lethal art is the methods
the justifications for whack & stacks are laid out to the public, and
how. Of course, there is always a good reason, including the
generic, "the officer(s) thought his/their life was in danger".
We have learned that this usually works as a catch all when ever
a whack & stack is reported. In this whack & stack White Paper,
we will use one of our most recent stories, and show you some
things to look out for whenever there is a whack & stack in your
neck of the woods. (Article in red; our analysis in black)

[Mr Bean]

I must point out Sheppered that the arment of the Russia Thugs VS the Cops is redeciulious. The Avarage Russia Cop carres an old fasion either Six-shooter style Revlover or somthing along the lines of a Glock Low Calibert but large clip gun VS the Avarage Russia Thug who carries an Automatic weapon(Avaible with 100 rounds for less than $100 in some places) and spare Kevlar(Vests are acutaly sold in some stores 49.99 I've heard them go for) not to mention all the Russia Military hardware that is reported "missing" each day

[MKSheppard]

I must point out Sheppered that the arment of the Russia Thugs VS the Cops is redeciulious. The Avarage Russia Cop carres an old fasion either Six-shooter style Revlover or somthing along the lines of a Glock Low Calibert but large clip gun VS the Avarage Russia Thug who carries an Automatic weapon(Avaible with 100 rounds for less than $100 in some places) and spare Kevlar(Vests are acutaly sold in some stores 49.99 I've heard them go for) not to mention all the Russia Military hardware that is reported "missing" each day

It's not about the armament....it's about the number of people killed by cops...

Here in Montgomery County, MD, I've taken to calling our neighboring
county's police force, the Prince George's County, MD police department
"The Nigger Killers", since it seems every other week, they shoot some
black guy to death, and the most ironic thing is, the PG County cops
are mostly black.

[Mr Bean]

Flip it around Sheppered the fact is the Russia Cops are armed with Pea-Shooters VS people with Kevlar vests and carring Automatic Weapons, Half of the Police force is on the Take and the other half wishs they where the Reason the cops don't kill that many people is because they will get killed if they try it

Flip it around Sheppered Check out the POLICE Fatailite Report out of Russia Compared to America

Cops can't go shooting people if thier dead now can they?

[MKSheppard]

Flip it around Sheppered Check out the POLICE Fatailite Report out of Russia Compared to America

Cops can't go shooting people if thier dead now can they?

<SET MARINA O'LEARY MODE>


Hrm. Interesting.


</SET MARINA O'LEARY MODE>


Got a link? I'd like to read up on this.....sounds like the 1920s over
there.....and you are right, EHEHEH, cops can't shoot people if they're
dead.

[Mr Bean]

I'll hunt around for a online link but the information I gathered on this was of the printed type along with a few History Channel Docmentaries about the Special Forces(Hmm I think its Spanaizta?) are being used for Cop jobs because the Goverment does not trust the police the corruption by the mob is so bad. One thing Clancy did get right was a huge precentage of retired KGB and Miltary fokes did indeed enter into the Mafia inculding, Hmm was it last year? An Assoceated Press report about five hundred RPG style weapons where found on a ship in St. Petersburg that according to the Goverment where from various Military Depots most of which records showed them as still be there and in a few cases even had records that inspectors had verfiyed they where still there


I'll try and find some info but the basic description right now in Russia its just like 1920s EXCEPT, 1. The Hoods are much smarter beacuse they have people who where trained an not just the dumb smukcs who can hold a gun you saw in the 20's, 2. The Corruption is so bad there if it happend in America it probably would lead to a second Revolution, 3. The Crooks have all the Guns and know how to use em

[MKSheppard]

<snip stuff>

No no, you don't have to go hunt around. I believe you. This all ties
in with other stuff I've read about Russia over the years.

Sounds like a great place to make a fast buck.

ObSW: Sounds like Han and Chewie would have a great time in modern
day Mother Russia.

[buzz_knox]

Mr. Bean, the "average Russian cop" is a member of MVD, which is more properly a militia. Their weapons include the 9x18mm Makarov (they do not use revolvers), and AK-pattern assault rifles and submachine guns. They are as well armed as your average infantry unit (minus the heavy weapons) because they are, functionally, infantry. Watch them in action sometime and see how poorly equipped they are.

As for Weaver, the man may be scum but the only thing he did wrong legally was to be entrapped by ATF. They wanted to have an informant so they convinced him to sell two shotguns which were 1/4 inches below the legal length. To insure they had him, they told him where to make the cuts. That's a textbook example of entrapment. Weaver refused to become an informant because those groups routinely kill such people. He arrived at court at the designated time and was told to go home due to a clerical error. Rather than reserving him with papers, the feds instituted a surveillance op that cost somewhere around $1 million dollars. The local sheriff (who knew Weaver) always wondered why they didn't just walk up and talk to him, as he himself had done before.

As for his family, the feds shot his son in the back, then ordered that any adult in sight be shot. The FBI sniper had his cross hairs on Vicky Weaver's head when he shot her. He claimed later that he was aiming at someone else. FBI snipers, however, are required to file an afteraction report, which is to include the sight picture at the moment the shot is fired. His sight picture showed the runner to the left, and Mrs. Weaver in his sights. He was never punished for obstruction of justice or perjury, let alone following an illegal order or for the shooting itself.

[Mr Bean]

Mr. Bean, the "average Russian cop" is a member of MVD, which is more properly a militia. Their weapons include the 9x18mm Makarov (they do not use revolvers), and AK-pattern assault rifles and submachine guns. They are as well armed as your average infantry unit (minus the heavy weapons) because they are, functionally, infantry. Watch them in action sometime and see how poorly equipped they are.

Funny I never saw any Assault Rifles in Evidance or Subs on any of the clothed Policemen overthere and I'd like to know where you get this information as its countrary to what I saw with my own eyes in 97 when I traveled there for a week and what I've read and see on the Documentarys about the Spanaitza having to act as police now-adays due to the rampent corrupition and general piss-poor quality of Russia as it starts getting use to the fact the big bad boogie man(KGB) is no longer there to yank you off the street if you speak up to loud, Well the crimals have been clued in on this the instant the grip start loosing there

Despite the fact I stayed a at a reputable hotel the people I was traveling with still ran into problems with hoods and spent a little more than they should have otherwise making sure they would come home with everything

My Grandmother made the mistake of staying at a *local hotel and spent nearly $200 getting her lugage back, Spring 2000, the bell-man asked for a quote *nice big tip to make sure I don't drop my keys and when she refused the next day after visting the square she came back to find her lugage nicely stacked outside her door emtpy, when she confronted the manager he denined any knoweldge, when she went to the police the flat out told her oh well we've got enough problems, see ended up paying $164 American to the Bell-man to find that lost lugage.

[buzz_knox]

The information I have is from viewing after action video of their well documented raids, and reviewing material from the people who have helped train them. I won't claim this knowledge is superior to actually being there, but I would suggest that even if their weapons are not publicly displayed, this is not dissimilar to most American LE agencies, where heavy ordnance is kept out of sight until needed.