Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

...Because from the sounds of it you could end up listening to it for a long time.
New Scientist wrote: Space elevator trips could be agonisingly slow

* 00:00 09 December 2008 by Rachel Courtland
* For similar stories, visit the Spaceflight Topic Guide

The simple act of climbing could throw space elevators off track and potentially into harm's way, a new study suggests. Fixing the problem could require agonisingly slow trips lasting nearly a month or the careful choreography of multiple climbers.

Space elevators have been proposed as a cheap alternative to expensive rocket launches to send cargo, and perhaps even humans, into space.

The elevators would be made of a cable (also called a tether or ribbon) that would be anchored to the Earth's surface and balanced by a counter-weight in space. Lasers on Earth would beam power to "climbers" that would crawl up the tether with their cargo.

But the concept has been stuck on the ground floor for decades, not least because current materials are not strong enough to handle the strain on the tether. Carbon nanotubes may work, but they need to be longer and purer than those manufactured today.

Even with adequate materials, space elevators might be highly unstable. Gravitational tugs from the Moon and Sun, as well as pressure from gusts of solar wind, could shake the tether, potentially causing the elevator to crash into nearby satellites or space junk. ThrustersMovie Camera might be needed to keep the tether in line.

Now, it seems that the act of climbing itself could also cause the tether to wobble.

Earth's spin

The culprit is the Coriolis force, which deflects objects that are moving in a rotating system. On Earth, the planet's rotation sets up a Coriolis force that deflects air currents and water.

In this study, the space elevator would stand vertically from a point on Earth's equator. As the climber ascended, its motion would cause the Coriolis force to pull the climber, and thus the cable, in the opposite direction of Earth's rotation.

This would pull the elevator away from its vertical resting position, causing it to oscillate back and forth like a pendulum, say mechanical engineers Arun Misra of McGill University in Montreal, Canada, and Stephen Cohen, now at MDA Space.
Wrong orbits

The motion of cargo up the elevator might only cause the cable to wobble back and forth by a fraction of a degree, says Misra.

But the tether's swing could either boost or reduce the velocity of any spacecraft exiting the elevator. That could send them into orbits that are tens of kilometres too high or too low, Misra says, adding that significant amounts of fuel might be needed to correct the problem.

"Because it's a huge structure, this small deviation can make large errors in the orbit that will be reached by the payload," Misra told New Scientist.

The wobbles induced by climbing cargo might also help send the elevator into harm's way.
Slow crawl

The faster a climber goes, the larger the effect, Misra told New Scientist, so the simplest way to minimise a climber's effect on the cable is to slow its ascent.

Slowing the climb would allow the space elevator to be drawn back to its stable point, perfectly vertical above the Earth's equator. But this could also make trips into orbit agonisingly slow, adding nine days or more to a climb that – at several hundred kilometres per hour – might already take about 15 days.

Alternatively, the speed of climbs might be fine-tuned as the trip progresses, Misra says. Multiple climbers could also be sent up the tether at the same time, in a carefully orchestrated ballet.

"I think we are finding that building a space elevator is a lot more complicated than simply stringing up a ribbon and whizzing up and down it," says Anders Jorgensen of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology in Socorro, US, who has studied space elevator stability.
Speed limit

"Needing to impose a particular climber schedule and speed could have implications for the economical viability of a space elevator, so it is a very important question to answer," Jorgensen says.

"Traffic-phasing will likely play a role," agrees David Lang, a consultant based in Seattle, Washington, who has also studied the effects of climbers.

But other methods, involving coupled space elevators arranged side by side or one-way traffic that occasionally reverses direction, might also help. "I would say that it is too early to establish the best way to do this," Lang told New Scientist.
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I've never understood why there was so much optimism for the idea of space elevators, maybe I haven't looked into the idea enough, but I've never understood how anyone can think that, at any time in the near future, we could be building something twenty thousand miles tall to haul massive quantities of stuff into orbit. Made out of incredibly expensive material at that.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Junghalli »

Sikon wrote a pretty good critique of space elevators as an orbit-lift concept a while back. Basically, they're far from what sci fi geeks tend to crack them up to be.

Personally, I think scramjet/rocket hybrid craft are a much more promising avenue for SSTO flight.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Kanastrous »

Ha!

I've been working on a sort of die-hard-on-a-beanstalk (not really, but close enough for log) project, and an early worry was, could the scripted action reasonably fit into what I'd assumed would be no more than a two-or-three hour ride.

That won't be a problem, any more.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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How much would a beanstalk cost to build and maintain, anyway?
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Formless »

I thought the advantage with space elevators was the fact that they allowed more efficient lifting of cargo, NOT passengers? Old news, I would say.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Ariphaos »

Formless wrote:I thought the advantage with space elevators was the fact that they allowed more efficient lifting of cargo, NOT passengers? Old news, I would say.
Indeed, I didn't read anything in here that was not already known about - everyone knows it is going to be a slow ascent. In fact, there was discussion elsewhere about using the elevator's wobble to our advantage in interplanetary transfers.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Ender »

Meh, I like linear accelerators better anyways. Admittedly, part of that is the supervillian "hollow out a mountain and fill it with high tech gadgetry" charm the idea has, but still, it is tech we have now where as a space elevator is generations off.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Ender wrote:Meh, I like linear accelerators better anyways. Admittedly, part of that is the supervillian "hollow out a mountain and fill it with high tech gadgetry" charm the idea has, but still, it is tech we have now where as a space elevator is generations off.
I thought the engineering of linear accelerators was currently as beyond us as space elevators? Besides, wouldn't they be less energy efficient?
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Aranfan »

Last I heard, the Space Elevator was only ten-to-twenty years away. Did I hear wrongly?
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Ender »

Formless wrote:
Ender wrote:Meh, I like linear accelerators better anyways. Admittedly, part of that is the supervillian "hollow out a mountain and fill it with high tech gadgetry" charm the idea has, but still, it is tech we have now where as a space elevator is generations off.
I thought the engineering of linear accelerators was currently as beyond us as space elevators? Besides, wouldn't they be less energy efficient?
Last time it came up there was a discussion of accelerators (both centrifugal and linear) I thought one was within our reach and the other was only a few years out if we put our minds to it, where as space elevators were generations off.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Ender »

Aranfan wrote:Last I heard, the Space Elevator was only ten-to-twenty years away. Did I hear wrongly?
Like fusion, it has been 10-20 years out since someone came up with it.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Ender wrote:
Aranfan wrote:Last I heard, the Space Elevator was only ten-to-twenty years away. Did I hear wrongly?
Like fusion, it has been 10-20 years out since someone came up with it.

When the idea behind space elevators came up decades (1969 to be precise) ago they thought it might take 100+ years to build one and require so much in resources its not even funny. Now they say once they solve 1 or 2 problems they could therotically build one in 10 to 20 years. Which is what they said 10 to 20 years ago :D Those few problems climber tech and the ability to mass produce carbon nanotubes have yet to be solved.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Garlak »

Sorry... what exactly would a linear accelerator do? How/Why are mountains involved?

Why is it being compared to space elevators? Are they similar in function, or in scope?
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Garlak wrote:Sorry... what exactly would a linear accelerator do? How/Why are mountains involved?

Why is it being compared to space elevators? Are they similar in function, or in scope?
Basically what it does is use a giant ring made of magnets to accelerate a payload to 6 miles per sec or so. Once it reaches sufficient velocity it is launched out and into orbit. For none living cargo you could use higher accelerations to achieve a faster launch time. But if I rember right even lower accelerations and speeds as it goes through the curves in the circuit would exceed human limits.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by PeZook »

Friction would be a huge problem for linear accelerators. You know, sometimes I think that instead of building gigantic megastructures, we should just buy a crapload of superheavy rockets and build up our space infrastructure. Once it's self-sufficient, we won't need to carry cargo into orbit anymore, save for passengers.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Junghalli »

I've heard that the problem with using mass drivers is the perigee of the orbit would be the level of the mass driver (on the surface). Can anybody comment on that?

As far the space elevator, it involves creating immense quantities of the most crazy strong material known to science. I really doubt it'll be practical within 20 years, and I honestly have doubts about whether it would ever really be worth the effort.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Junghalli wrote:I've heard that the problem with using mass drivers is the perigee of the orbit would be the level of the mass driver (on the surface). Can anybody comment on that?
Yeah. It makes as much sense as saying that rockets won't work because the trajectory of a rocket will eventually intersect the Earth. There's no reason why a mass driver projectile couldn't use an apogee kick, just like rockets.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Well, if we are talking about really heavy lifting necessary for space mining infrastructure`s development then nothing short of anti gravity drive beats Orion nuclear pulse rockets which could be built with today's technology wasn`t those pesky politics that get in a way.

If space elevator turns out to be so slow that it takes month for climber to reach orbit then amount of cargo put into orbit seems very limited not to mention astronomical costs and huge difficulties needed to be solved to build the thing.

IMO instead of space elevator I`d better like to see that money spent on building huge coilgun or railgun running the side of some high mountain to shoot cargo to orbit. That way amount of cargo shot into space basically would be limited by available electric power and maintenance/cooldown periods between each shot.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Sky Captain wrote: IMO instead of space elevator I`d better like to see that money spent on building huge coilgun or railgun running the side of some high mountain to shoot cargo to orbit. That way amount of cargo shot into space basically would be limited by available electric power and maintenance/cooldown periods between each shot.
Just like it's limited today by available launch slots and rocket fuel...

Really, hollowing out mountains to build railguns? Construction costs seem really mind-blowing compared to just launching a fuckload of rockets...
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Sky Captain »

PeZook wrote:
Sky Captain wrote: IMO instead of space elevator I`d better like to see that money spent on building huge coilgun or railgun running the side of some high mountain to shoot cargo to orbit. That way amount of cargo shot into space basically would be limited by available electric power and maintenance/cooldown periods between each shot.
Just like it's limited today by available launch slots and rocket fuel...

Really, hollowing out mountains to build railguns? Construction costs seem really mind-blowing compared to just launching a fuckload of rockets...
Some time ago I read paper discussing the possibilities of electromagnetic space launch (unfortunately lost the link) and it was said cost to build the thing would be somewhere between 10 - 15 billion Euros. Basically large capital cost which would pay back during the thousands of launches.

I don`t know how much the heavy lift rocket will cost when mass produced, but given the complicated machinery built to extreme tolerances which go into rocket I can`t imagine rockets getting cheap.

On the other hand electromagnetic launcher once it`s paid itself of could provide relatively cheap cargo launch on daily basis and the launcher itself could potentially last for decades if designed correctly.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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Could you link that paper? The key is single launch cost.

Especially since the mass driver's payload would still need a rocket to give it an apogee kick. Making classic rockets partially or fully reuseable is one possibility to reduce per-launch cost.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Formless »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Rockets are expensive due to the extreme tolerances in current designs, but that is only because rockets are expensive, forcing them to shave down on the mass, thus needing custom parts for everything to make the most out of every launch.

If there were more launches, they could afford to waste a bit more on each launch, letting them to use off the shelf parts to slash the price down significantly.

Take a look at this link for the argument worded much better and in detail: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/rocketaday.html
Um... don't you mean rocket parts make rockets expensive? This statement is pretty circular as it stands, but I'm pretty sure it is a mistake, given the context.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

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PeZook wrote:Could you link that paper? The key is single launch cost.

Especially since the mass driver's payload would still need a rocket to give it an apogee kick. Making classic rockets partially or fully reuseable is one possibility to reduce per-launch cost.
Couldn`t find the original, but some googling turned up something very similar

http://research.lifeboat.com/ieee.em.pdf

In this case launcher cost was estimated around 1,3 billion $ and payload cost around 500 $/kg assuming launcher lifetime is 10 000 shots.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Nephtys »

Linear accelerators don't HAVE to be built into a mountain. They can be built across a flat stretch of anywhere with stable environmental conditions (for maintenance purposes) and fire loads at any open patch of horizon, since escape velocity is a scalar quantity, you can just have it shoot off in any which way.

Construction Costs are likely to be pretty huge for a dozens-plus kilometers long accelerator though.
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Re: Travelling to orbit? Hope you like elevator music

Post by Junghalli »

Nephtys wrote:Construction Costs are likely to be pretty huge for a dozens-plus kilometers long accelerator though.
Would that really be necessary? I remember reading that a mass driver on the moon would have to be less than 200 meters long. Sure, Earth has higher gravity and an atmosphere, but I don't think that's going to make for two orders of magnitude worth of difference.

BTW, how much delta V would be needed for the apogee kick?
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