Most EFFECTIVE military training programs

[Coyote]

I guess "efficient" can be seen in a number of different ways.

I see it as able to take ordinary people and turn them into good troopers, without the need for radioactive spiders, genetically altered nanowhatsits or being raised by wolves. To that I'd say the ordinary Basic Training in "Space: Above and Beyond" was pretty good.

[TheMuffinKing]

You only get some hints about the training, but what about the Genetic Infantryman training in 2000AD's Rogue Trooper, it seems pretty effective.

I thought they were vat grown and trained via simulation or something in the tank?

I'm going to speculate on training for the Aliens Colonial Marines. In my opinion, based on what I saw in the movie, the colonial marines seem to be at least as well trained as 1980's army or marine enlisted, though not necessarily as disciplined. Given their equipment and presumed duties as a rapid reaction force for the colonies I'll go out on a limb and say they would probably do much better against a conventional similar force.

[Adrian Laguna]

Give Cadians or Imperial Guard the equivalent of Space Marine equipment, including the power armor, and they'll be just as badass and killy even without the decades of inhuman training and the superhuman modifications.

Space Marine training doesn't last decades, it lasts one to one a half, and it's hardly inhuman. Like I said, the primary difference is that it lasts all fucking day, every day. But Space Marines are capable of sustaining that thanks to advanced mental conditioning. It's not like in the Freehold where the training only works because the author says it does. Everything done to and by Space Marines is well justified by the nature and technology available to the setting.

[Samuel]

Sadly, space marine training isn't something that can be widely expanded or adopted due to the high tech requirements involved for gear, geneseeds, etc.

Interestingly, the rationale wasn't technobabble. UNSC High Command wanted their supersoldiers right then, and refused to allow any more delays, including further testing. They were perfectly aware that they would lose more children that way, but the bueracracy wanted results.

In a way, much more realistic than any technobabble explanation.

Doesn't the training period take 6 years? How would a couple more weeks make a difference?

[Black Admiral]

Interestingly, the rationale wasn't technobabble. UNSC High Command wanted their supersoldiers right then, and refused to allow any more delays, including further testing. They were perfectly aware that they would lose more children that way, but the bueracracy wanted results.

In a way, much more realistic than any technobabble explanation.

Doesn't the training period take 6 years? How would a couple more weeks make a difference?

It would've taken a lot longer than a few weeks to improve the augmentation procedures; for one thing, the procedures were basically bleeding edge stuff, so we're talking very little (if any) practical experience, and for another, the UNSC Medical Corps really didn't have any ideas how to reduce the danger from the procedures.

[Peptuck]

Interestingly, the rationale wasn't technobabble. UNSC High Command wanted their supersoldiers right then, and refused to allow any more delays, including further testing. They were perfectly aware that they would lose more children that way, but the bueracracy wanted results.

In a way, much more realistic than any technobabble explanation.

Doesn't the training period take 6 years? How would a couple more weeks make a difference?

The tests and improvements would have taken a lot more time to have any real results. The Spartan-III program, which used better and more survivable enhancements, didn't start until a decade later. Arguably, the S-IIs were just testing for the creation of the S-IIIs, which were mass-produced, cheaper supersoldiers. They were able to get several hundred viable troops per batch instead of a couple dozen.

[Sidewinder]

I'm going to speculate on training for the Aliens Colonial Marines. In my opinion, based on what I saw in the movie, the colonial marines seem to be at least as well trained as 1980's army or marine enlisted, though not necessarily as disciplined.

Discipline is a VERY IMPORTANT part of military training; the point is to have soldiers (or marines, in this case) who will FOLLOW ORDERS. The lack of discipline exhibited by the marines in 'Aliens' is a strong sign that their training program was NOT effective.

Given their equipment and presumed duties as a rapid reaction force for the colonies I'll go out on a limb and say they would probably do much better against a conventional similar force.

The marines would EPIC FAIL against a similar conventional force, because they do NOT have the right types and numbers of equipment.

What do I mean? Let's compare the Sulaco's complement of marines to a Wasp class amphibious assault ship's; that's fair, considering both are large warships designed to transport marines to where the fight is.

The Wasp carries 1,894 marines out of a Marine Expeditionary Unit's 2,200 marines; PLUS numerous aircraft, the standard complement being six AV-8B ground attack aircraft, four AH-1W attack helicopters, 12 CH-46 and three CH-53 cargo helicopters, and three UH-1N utility helicopters; PLUS up to three LCACs for transporting the marines' vehicles, up to and including MAIN BATTLE TANKS.

Command Element (CE)

The CE is comprised of the commanding officer and supporting staff -- about 200 Marines and Sailors. It provides the command and coordination essential for effective planning and execution of operations and synchronizes the actions of each element within the MEU.

Ground Combat Element (GCE)

The GCE, about 1,200 strong, is built around an infantry battalion and provides the over-land combat power for the MEU. Assets inherent within the standard infantry battalion include medium and heavy machine guns, mortars, combined anti-armor teams (CAAT) and scout snipers. While assigned to the MEU, the unit, designated "Battalion Landing Team," is reinforced with light armored reconnaissance vehicles (LAV), tanks, artillery, combat engineers and assault amphibian vehicles (AAV).

Logistics Combat Element (LCE)

About 300 Marines and Sailors of the LCE provide combat support such as supply; maintenance; transportation; explosive ordnance disposal; military police; water production and distribution; engineering; medical and dental services; fuel storage and distribution; and other services to the deployed MEU. The LCE gives the MEU the ability to support itself for 15 days in austere expeditionary environments.

Aviation Combat Element (ACE)

The ACE is a composite squadron that provides the MEU medium to heavy lift capability, assault support and close air support (CAS). Although the aviation element carries the name of the Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron assigned to the MEU, its assets include CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift helicopters, CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift helicopters, AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter gunships, UH-1N Huey utility helicopters and AV-8B Harrier jump jets. With a force strength of approximately 500, the ACE includes air traffic control, aircraft maintenance/support and aviation logistics/supply capabilities.

The Sulaco's marines had NONE of the goodies mentioned, i.e., artillery (I know they're useless indoors, but the shells can be used as IEDs to help defend the marines' position); ADDITIONAL armored vehicles to replace the wrecked APC; specialized personnel such as ADDITIONAL pilots (Bishop had to fly the spare dropship by remote, FROM THE GROUND, because the Sulaco didn't have a spare pilot onboard, playing video games or something while monitoring the radio in case the marines call for help), military police (onboard, to stop Vasquez from castrating Hudson for making an ass of himself; offboard, to keep an eye on Burke), and medics.

[Shroom Man 777]

How were the Colonial Marines undisciplined? Just because they had Ruthless 80s Homoerotic Bantering?

They were sent to search and rescue a remote outpost on the fringes of civilized space, an outpost with a population in the few dozens. I don't blame them for NOT having nearly two thousand troopers aboard.

Would you send a Wasp-class ship full of two thousand US Marines to - say - an abandoned Antarctic research facility that was sending a distress signal? No, your rescue party would be composed of a few dozen men tops.

As for artillery, they had a space warship in orbit and Hudson said that they had stuff like phased plasma phalanxes, tactical smart bombs, and sonic-electronic ball breakers and knives and sharp sticks.

Course, that doesn't excuse the fact that the entire bunch of Marines was it - without anyone else on board the Sulaco when they went down.

[Darth Hoth]

Out of curiosity, how does the Galactic Empire's training regime stack up to the others mentioned here? I'm not sure how much information on Imperial training their is, though I recall its discussed a bit in those books with the Suncrusher. Are their any more detailed accounts?

It isn't really consistent. Some show it as reasonable and efficient, then you have things like Traviss' crap or that one shitty comic that go all sadist (the comic had an officer throw down a weapon with 3 shots in it in front of a group of 4 men, survivor got to enter stormtrooper boot camp, Traviss over rules previous publications and makes it sadistic to play up the poor abused clones bit)

Hah! There is much worse out there. CompForce training, according to Wookiee at least, makes Freehold look sane and downright competent; supposedly, 2/3s of the applicants die in Basic! Of course, Wookiee may be bullshitting, and the original WEG source (ISB) was Rebel propaganda in-universe, so I would take it with a grain of salt, but still. . .

And then there is of course Royal Guardsman training, with an attrition ratio of some 80-90 % (meaning, "dead," not quit or medical discharge), when they supposedly start with the best material the Empire's top squads has, and needlessly sadistic and murderous exercises. . .

[Sidewinder]

How were the Colonial Marines undisciplined?

The marines OPENLY QUESTION the officers' competency; this is NOT encouraged in REAL militaries, and is often punished because an officer MUST have the confidence of his/her subordinates, and if a newbie overhears the veterans griping that their commander is a jackass, the newbie might think, "If my commander is a jackass, maybe I should ignore the orders he gives me, because those orders might get me killed."

They were sent to search and rescue a remote outpost on the fringes of civilized space, an outpost with a population in the few dozens. I don't blame them for NOT having nearly two thousand troopers aboard.

Would you send a Wasp-class ship full of two thousand US Marines to - say - an abandoned Antarctic research facility that was sending a distress signal?

At the very least, I'd bring several medics to treat whoever I find there; one of those medics will stay WITH THE APC to take care of casualties that need medevac, with the APC as an improvised ambulance. And if I do NOT need to bring the amphibious assault ship's entire complement of marines, I'd use a smaller ship.

According to Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual, the Sulaco can carry "up to eight UD4L Cheyenne dropships and has sufficient life support capabilities for 90 crew and passengers (with up to 2,000 possible in hibernation for short term trips)." That means they could've brought an ADDITIONAL aircrew for the second dropship.

As for artillery, they had a space warship in orbit and Hudson said that they had stuff like phased plasma phalanxes, tactical smart bombs, and sonic-electronic ball breakers and knives and sharp sticks.

It seems likely that their negligence on the ground is based on Starfleet's mentality that space vessels come first. They've probably eliminated all "unnecessary" heavy ground weapons from their arsenal because they assume they will always enjoy space and air superiority over every battlefield. Perhaps they feel that if they don't enjoy space and air superiority over the battlefield, then a ground battle is hopeless and there's no point equipping their ground troops with anything heavier than what they already have. Even time-tested devices like mortars (which were still in use by the Klingons, and by the more balanced Federation military of Kirk's era) seem to be absent from the Federation's current ground forces' arsenals. But this is an extremely dangerous mentality; ground forces can not and should not be designed around the assumption that aircraft will be able to take the place of artillery and heavy support weapons. What if their aircraft are stymied by electrical storms, sensor jamming and poor visibility, or anti-aircraft fire? What if their aircraft are called away to fight air or space battles elsewhere? What if air superiority is being hotly contested? What if they've lost air superiority? If sensor jamming, electrical storms or interdictor fields prevent transporter evacuation, are the ground troops simply abandoned? Left to die, with enemy artillery pounding down on them?

Then there's the fact that the dropship was PARKED after dropping off the marines, instead of taking off again so the crew could scan for anyone/anything suspicious outside the colony compound (according to 'Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual', the dropship is heavily armed so it could serve as a gunship and provide close air support).

Course, that doesn't excuse the fact that the entire bunch of Marines was it - without anyone else on board the Sulaco when they went down.

Again, there should've been someone aboard the ship, taking care of the ship in case an out-of-control asteroid/satellite/shuttle crashes into it, monitoring transmissions in case she receives a distress signal coming from SOMEWHERE ELSE, and serving as an improvised spy satellite by using her sensors to scan areas of interest for the marines.

[Sidewinder]

See, here is the problem, what if there are soldiers from a sci-fi universe that, say always fight in combat suits that have radios. They are trained to rely on them in most situations.

And what if the soldiers LOSE the radios, e.g., the radio fell out because the soldier carelessly left a pocket open; the radio antenna broke off because the soldier bumped into something; the radio gets shot or torn off in battle; or the radio becomes USELESS because of jamming, background radiation, or terrain (see dead zones)? If the soldiers are competent, they'd have backup forms of communication, like hand signals or something; at the very least, they'd have runners moving back and forth to deliver messages.

[Shroom Man 777]

Then again, with overt Corporate fucking around, I really don't think we can fault the Marines for bitching that their new CO (what happened to their old one) is some inexperienced corporate stooge.

There were a lot of things wrong with the whole mission in Aliens, but I can't fault the troopers for it. A lot of it was due to Corporate fucking around and higher-up decisions the grunts had no say in. Isn't it supposed to be an allegory for the Vietnam War, but with acid-bleeding aliens instead of Charlies?

As for the lack of heavy ground artillery, it's not easy to bring tanks and crap aboard a space craft. Tanks and howitzers are heavy, and their mission was a relatively light reconnaissance one - the James Cameron equivalent of sending an Away Team of Redshirts to scope around with quadrucorder. At least in the Aliens-verse, their equivalent of Redshirts with quadrucorders come with APCs and gunships and heavy machine guns and stuff.

And those gunships were heavily armed. Just look at it TRANSFORM midair and have wings with obscene quantities of missile pods flip out of its fuselage!

[Shadowtraveler]

And then there is of course Royal Guardsman training, with an attrition ratio of some 80-90 % (meaning, "dead," not quit or medical discharge), when they supposedly start with the best material the Empire's top squads has, and needlessly sadistic and murderous exercises. . .

This one makes sense, as they are Palpatine's bodyguards and Palpatine is a jerk. Remember that even though he's a Sith Lord, he can't just flip out whenever he's in danger; it would blow his cover as an old and benevolent ex-senator.

[Shroom Man 777]

The sadistic and murderous exercises might be to help attune them to the Dark Side. So, even if they're not Force sensitives, they'll still subscribe to Sith behavior and other Sithy things Palpatine might approve of if their training turns them into brutalized psychopaths or something.

For all we know, they could be decked out in tattoos like Darth Maul.

[Thanas]

For all we know, they could be decked out in tattoos like Darth Maul.

They are not, as Crimson Empire proves.

[Darth Hoth]

This one makes sense, as they are Palpatine's bodyguards and Palpatine is a jerk. Remember that even though he's a Sith Lord, he can't just flip out whenever he's in danger; it would blow his cover as an old and benevolent ex-senator.

If you have to waste 90 % of your best ub3r l33t commandos in order to get the bodyguards you want, it is at the very least wasteful. One visit by Vader at the facility had him kill the best guy for the [&convert=lulz]inspiration of the others[/lulz].

The sadistic and murderous exercises might be to help attune them to the Dark Side. So, even if they're not Force sensitives, they'll still subscribe to Sith behavior and other Sithy things Palpatine might approve of if their training turns them into brutalized psychopaths or something.

Supposedly, Guardsmen are Force-sensitive, though they receive only rudimentary training in using it.

[FOG3]

I'm going to speculate on training for the Aliens Colonial Marines. In my opinion, based on what I saw in the movie, the colonial marines seem to be at least as well trained as 1980's army or marine enlisted, though not necessarily as disciplined.

Really?

These are the guys that let loose full auto on Newt, aka the little girl, as she dashes across a hallway and miss.

These are the guys that upon contact with the enemy that involved being grabbed from behind start panicing and causing friendly fire issues that arguably are more damaging then what the enemy actually is responsible for. Sorry, but the guys that are lit on fire including IIRC the sargeant aren't the xenomorph's fault.

These are the guys that left their transport unguarded enough something could cover open terrain and slip on board taking out their only manned transport.

These are also the guys whose commanders sent one squad, which to be fair was broken into two fire teams in practice, and one air crew in to deal with something that wiped out an entire colony. Sorry, but how can you cut that to be remotely adequate?

These are also the guys that let the guy who had "I'm-a-mental-casualty-waiting-to-happen" all over him from his first scene through screening. Of course, he had to keep not dying so we could listen to his incessant whining after he became a unofficial mental casualty.

I'd say you're being overly generous.

[consequences]

Wow, how long has it been since you watched the movie?

One of the flamers gets grabbed. He convulsively pulls the trigger, hitting the guy with all the ammo. The ammo explodes, taking out at a rough guess, two additional squad members from the simultaneous flatlining with the explosion. How exactly is this not the xeno's fault?

Then Sergeant Apone gets grabbed while Gorman's distracting him.

The two fuck-offs with the dropship weren't doing their job guarding the thing effectively, but it isn't like they left the thing unmanned.

Miss the part where the Corporation was willing to let them all get eaten to get a specimen?

And how exactly does Hudson scream' I'm gonna be a mental casualty' anyway? Until people have seen combat, you really don't know who's going to fold or not.

[TheMuffinKing]

You guys are right, I guess I was romanticizing the memory of the movie.

A better bet would be training of Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Ghost team. We already know they are trained to be at least as effective as delta force, even though they are typically used in a smaller capacity, what with being a recon team. Granted this is from game experience and not from having read the novels.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

The Imperial Cadre from In Fury Born and Path of the Fury would seem to fit the bill. I don't think it could be argued that the training is efficient (an empire with a population in the tens of trillions can't supply enough people to produce 40,000 of them), but they are effective. People don't get 80% of their company wiped out at the very start of their mission and yet fight their way through several thousand well equipped enemy soldiers, break their way into a heavily fortified compound, rescue the hostages and defeat a counterattack nine times their own strength after running out of ammo if they're being trained by chumps.

[Batman]

That depends on HOW they lost 80% of their company, really. If they lost those to the same forces they afterwards slaughter by the truckload
than that training isn't all that effective either.
40,000 from 10s of trillions doesn't tell us beans without knowing how much of the population actually underwent that training.
40,000 out of a pool of 40,0001 who were actually trained I'd call pretty damned efficient.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

That depends on HOW they lost 80% of their company, really. If they lost those to the same forces they afterwards slaughter by the truckload
than that training isn't all that effective either.

They lost them in an ambush at their drop zone, which from every prior indication was clear (the ambushers had several days to prepare hidden positions beforehand since the drop zone was selected by a traitor working on their side, and they thus knew where the drop commandos would land before the drop commandos had even looked at their maps to start planning). The Cadre blokes had the in universe version of light weapons, whereas the guys they were fighting had heavy weapons in dug in positions and air support. None of which the guys on the ground were supposed to have, and in fact were confirmed not to have by their intelligence dude. Who was the traitor I mentioned earlier, and generally regarded as very competent.

[Black Admiral]

That depends on HOW they lost 80% of their company, really. If they lost those to the same forces they afterwards slaughter by the truckload than that training isn't all that effective either.

The Cadre company was making a stealth insertion, but got ambushed at their drop zone (due to having been sold out by the mission's intel officer) by enemy forces with military-grade combat armour, heavy weapons and air support (none of which they knew about before being targeted by the terrorists' emplaced AA weapons); most of their KIAs were during the drop and initial breakout from their LZ, including all the officers and most of the senior NCOs.

Given that, I'd say the Cadremen and women did pretty well for themselves.

[FOG3]

One of the flamers gets grabbed. He convulsively pulls the trigger, hitting the guy with all the ammo. The ammo explodes, taking out at a rough guess, two additional squad members from the simultaneous flatlining with the explosion. How exactly is this not the xeno's fault?

Are you honestly no oblivious to safety protocols, you think "jerked the trigger" puts them in a better light then "freaked out." Where is your trigger finger if you are not ready to shoot, buddy? Here's a hint it's not on the trigger to prevent that exact accidental discharge problem, and if you aren't your training program is seriously lacking.

That still doesn't get around that only went down that way because:
-They lackidasically went in there with zero forethought or planning of their own iniative. When the woman that has been in a bloody freeze capsule so long she doesn't know jack about any of the equipment is pointing out stuff from a cursory examination that's suddenly news to you, you are pathetic.
-They did the whole lets make a guy carry all the ammo business making him a walking grenade themselves. They set that up all by their lonesomes. Plus what kind of confidence they have in their guys does it speak to that they'd do it that way?

Nor does it get around the fact the Xeno only grabbed the guy while that was going down. It's not like it was nibbling on him or anything. You do also realize they only had like 10 guys, so rapidly losing 3 to use your number is not exactly a minor thing.

Then Sergeant Apone gets grabbed while Gorman's distracting him.

With most of his squad around him. To bad they were in disarray because the guy with the flamer freaked out and nailed the ammo guy, thereby allowing a opening for the Sargeant to get nailed thereby increasing the chaos. What part of arguably more damaging, got past you? Or are you arguing the Xenos were actually smart enough to know what a Sargeant is?

The two fuck-offs with the dropship weren't doing their job guarding the thing effectively, but it isn't like they left the thing unmanned.

What's with you and playing the way it would be almost understandable as if it would be the height of incompetance, while playing the height of incompetance if it's not. They were on a landing pad with barren terrain all around aka no real cover/concealment. If they'd locked down the ship and something had managed to get on board while they were off taking a piss or something it would be understandable that they didn't recognize it was there until it was too late. As is they don't really have a excuse.

Miss the part where the Corporation was willing to let them all get eaten to get a specimen?

Miss the problem that to get a specimen somebody actually has to come back? Or did you think the Xeno would nicely call a shuttle down and fly the Sulaco back to Company, all by it's lonesome?

And how exactly does Hudson scream' I'm gonna be a mental casualty' anyway? Until people have seen combat, you really don't know who's going to fold or not.

When your mental fragility is such you're advertisizng it more or less 24/7 in how you walk and talk it's kind of obvious. The guy that can't shut up because he has to reassure himself every few minutes, and is jumpy enough to do things like empty a mag at Newt ain't exactly hiding it well bud. The DIs and DSs are kind of supposed to spot those types and weed them out, you know?

Seems as how you don't think he had Neon signs on him, straight from the script:

His first line:
HUDSON
This floor's freezing.

APONE
Christ. I never saw such a buncha old women. You want me to fetch your slippers, Hudson?

HUDSON
Would you, Sir?

Scene Two:
HUDSON
Hey, Vasquez...you ever been mistaken for a man?

VASQUEZ
No. Have you?

So from the get go what do we have? A POS that is incessantly whining and snarking at his comrades and superiors, in a way that's the real Neon sign. Exactly how much more obvious and disfunctional does he need to be before you think maybe this guy should never have been allowed in front line combat arms, consequences?

[Shadowtraveler]

This one makes sense, as they are Palpatine's bodyguards and Palpatine is a jerk. Remember that even though he's a Sith Lord, he can't just flip out whenever he's in danger; it would blow his cover as an old and benevolent ex-senator.

If you have to waste 90 % of your best ub3r l33t commandos in order to get the bodyguards you want, it is at the very least wasteful. One visit by Vader at the facility had him kill the best guy for the [&convert=lulz]inspiration of the others[/lulz].

I'm not saying it's efficient. I'm saying that Palpatine wanted a few dozen or so ruthless bodyguards that would follow his orders to the letter, and he got them. Efficiency didn't matter to him.