To the religious: Why do you have faith?

[Wicked Pilot]

You know what? Its none of your goddamn business what someone chooses to believe.

You know what? This is a discussion board, you come here to discuss. I don't go around to people's homes, knock on their door, and tell them they're going to be eaten my fire breathing dragon if they don't believe in him.

You have taken a stand strikingly similar to the organized religions that you profess to hate.

What, by pointing that you have to be irrational to hold irrational beliefs? It's one thing to believe in stupid irrational things as a kid, hell I once believed in Santa and Jesus, but to choose to believe in such stupid bullshit as an adult is down right inexcusable. I will say this in no unequivocal terms; adults who believe in stupid things are stupid.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Oh, sore subject for me here... but I'll put in a word anyway, and hope for the best.

Why do I have faith? Well, first off, I can't give you a reason for that directly. By definition (Biblical definition, anyway) faith is the belief in things not seen. So if I could point to something and say, "That's why." that would not be faith. It would be misinterpretation of a natural event, or worse. But I can tell you what points me in the direction of faith, at least:

There have been times, in my life, where things have gone so well for me, or alternately, so badly for me, and done one or the other with such consistency over an extended period of time, that the run of either "good luck" or "bad luck" stretched credulity.

Based on these simply unrealistic runs of wildly exaggerated probability, I have come to have faith in two things:

1) Some kind of intelligence is running the show, and
2) This supernatural intelligence, were he human, would be one sadistic sonofabitch with a truly fucked up sense of humor.

Of course, intellect and logic demand that neither of the above statements are true; but there are times when experience demands an explanation that logic simply cannot provide at the time. Thus, we are left with imagination, and the mind's desire to anthropomorphize the mathematics of everyday life. We are left with faith.

[haas mark]

Why do you have faith?

(no offense to verilon, et al) Because they're fearful fools (unless their religion is one like deism which has no real issue with science)

Question was why do YOU have faith.. not determine for yourselves based on logic and science why WE have faith..

[Durandal]

Why do I have faith? Well, first off, I can't give you a reason for that directly. By definition (Biblical definition, anyway) faith is the belief in things not seen. So if I could point to something and say, "That's why." that would not be faith.

I think you're misunderstanding faith. You can point to some event in your life as a reason to have faith. The crux is whether or not your reasons are independently verifiable. If they are not, then you're taking that experience on faith. If those conditions and experiences are independently verifiable and objective, then it's simple reasoning.

[kojikun]

yeah but i dont have faith so i cant answer that question properly. :p just my two cents tho.

[Darth Wong]

I have faith because of the personal experiences I have had, not because I was brought up a certain way...which I declare because some of you think that people can only have faith because they're brainwashed or were never given any freedom of thought at home.

*Pre-emptive strike against atheists detected*

Wow, you never heard of God or the name "Jesus" until you were an adult? Oh wait, you're not saying you were not raised in a religious environment; you're just saying that you don't think it affected you. Riiight ...

[Darth Wong]

You know what? Its none of your goddamn business what someone chooses to believe.

Nobody forced you to talk about it. But to talk about it in public and then shriek that no one can comment because it's none of their business is fucking stupid.

You have taken a stand strikingly similar to the organized religions that you profess to hate.

Oh really? How is WP's assertion that religion is irrational similar to the stand of organized religions? I would love to know.

[Sonnenburg]

Why do you have faith?

(no offense to verilon, et al) Because they're fearful fools (unless their religion is one like deism which has no real issue with science)

Thanks for adding "no offense." I'll see you all back in the Off Topic board.

[The Dark]

You know what? Its none of your goddamn business what someone chooses to believe.

Nobody forced you to talk about it. But to talk about it in public and then shriek that no one can comment because it's none of their business is fucking stupid.

I think the main reason he's complaining is because FireNexus specifically requested no atheists respond, suggesting he was trying to get a serious discussion started without forcing the religious people onto the defensive. Instead, some of the more rabid atheists leapt in and ignored that request, showing a lack of respect both for us and for FireNexus. That is rather irritating, that some people hold that much hatred of religion that they can't even respect someone enough to allow opinions to be voiced unchallenged in a thread specifically created for that purpose.

[Durandal]

You know what? Its none of your goddamn business what someone chooses to believe.

Nobody forced you to talk about it. But to talk about it in public and then shriek that no one can comment because it's none of their business is fucking stupid.

I think the main reason he's complaining is because FireNexus specifically requested no atheists respond, suggesting he was trying to get a serious discussion started without forcing the religious people onto the defensive. Instead, some of the more rabid atheists leapt in and ignored that request, showing a lack of respect both for us and for FireNexus. That is rather irritating, that some people hold that much hatred of religion that they can't even respect someone enough to allow opinions to be voiced unchallenged in a thread specifically created for that purpose.

Remember Rob Wilson's "military people only" thread about Star Trek's ground forces? It's naive to think that if you tell certain people to stay out of a thread in a public forum that they will do so.

Furthermore, I simply contributed the reasons why I had faith when I had it, which I thought were pertinent to the discussion. Just because there is no reason to have faith is no reason to get pissy.

[XPViking]

Remember Rob Wilson's "military people only" thread about Star Trek's ground forces? It's naive to think that if you tell certain people to stay out of a thread in a public forum that they will do so. -Durandal

You're right Durandal. It probably was naive. But I interpreted FireNexus' request as a genuine line of inquiry, not as a prelude for some members to listen to voices from the Peanut gallery.

XPViking

[haas mark]

Remember Rob Wilson's "military people only" thread about Star Trek's ground forces? It's naive to think that if you tell certain people to stay out of a thread in a public forum that they will do so. -Durandal

You're right Durandal. It probably was naive. But I interpreted FireNexus' request as a genuine line of inquiry, not as a prelude for some members to listen to voices from the Peanut gallery.

XPViking

However, we must also look at the fact that some people (ie, Durandal) did not in fact start an arguement, simply stated their opinions and left it at that. BUT, it must be looked at that it was asked why we have faith.. not why we shouldn't, and not why we don't (because these points have been made countless times before).

[Darth Wong]

Durandal did have faith at one time. His personal story is honest and sincere, and I see no reason to blast it because it violates some local Thought Police rule. Perhaps the thread starter should have said "nothing that might possibly annoy any religious person" as a ground rule, just to prevent this sort of horrid intrusion

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Why do I have faith? Well, first off, I can't give you a reason for that directly. By definition (Biblical definition, anyway) faith is the belief in things not seen. So if I could point to something and say, "That's why." that would not be faith.

I think you're misunderstanding faith. You can point to some event in your life as a reason to have faith. The crux is whether or not your reasons are independently verifiable. If they are not, then you're taking that experience on faith. If those conditions and experiences are independently verifiable and objective, then it's simple reasoning.

Um... exactly. You did notice that I mentioned my experience with what some would call "extreme luck"? Well, there it is. Circumstances and situations outside a controlled environment bear a certain amount of unpredictability. But when events begin to turn out negatively (or positively) with near-perfect consistency over an absurdly extended period of time, it stretches one's logic. (Probably something about the law of averages or whatever, I don't know). Anyway, the other problem with this situation is that, because it is real life and not a controlled experiment, it is unpredictable, and for the most part non-repeatable. This is why only faith can explain the cause -- in my case, at least, I am not well-versed enough in chaos theory or advanced mathematics or whatever to adequately apply the kind of logic necessary to explain it. Therefore, I turn to faith.

[Durandal]

Chaos theory is a phycisist's way of saying, "Aw fuck."
Basically chaos theory states that some systems are extremely sensitive to their initial conditions. The equations used to predict the outcome in that system are such that I would get a radically different output if I entered 1.00000000000000000001 as opposed to 1.00000000000000000002. The weather is a perfect example and is, in fact, how chaos theory came about.

[XPViking]

Durandal did have faith at one time. His personal story is honest and sincere, and I see no reason to blast it because it violates some local Thought Police rule. Perhaps the thread starter should have said "nothing that might possibly annoy any religious person" as a ground rule, just to prevent this sort of horrid intrusion - Darth Wong

Don't play this "thought police" game with me, Darth Wong. You know exactly what I mean when I said "genuine line of inquiry" as opposed to "Peanut gallery". Durandal's story fits the bill since he is basically sharing his experience. Wicked Pilot's comments (his first one in this thread) is just to inflame, causing religious people to be on the defensive and less willing to share. Let's review the comments here:

I've never understood having faith. so, I'm asking every religious person I can: Why do you have faith, in order to better understand. So far, most have either said they don't know or that it gives them hope.

And to non-religious (atheists, agonstics, etc.): Don't answer. You'll just parrot what I would think, anyway. I want the viewpoint of the faithful, here. - FireNexus

Seems like a genuine line of inquiry to me. Seems like the thrust of his post was to invite people who have faith to share the experiences as to why they do.

When I was Christian, I had faith mainly because of fear. Up until the fourth grade, I'd simply gone to Sunday School, but from fifth grade on, I was in Catholic school, so I was reminded every day that I was a horrible person by default who needed saving. It got to the point where I literally burst out in tears during class because the teacher told me that I couldn't go to confession because I hadn't taken a special class, so I had to live with all of my sins even longer. Not to mention that I was the only Catholic kid in class who couldn't confess, so I felt alienated as well.

Basically, I only had faith just in case there really was a God, so I wouldn't go to Hell. - Durandal

Although Durandal doesn't have faith now, his story does answer the main point of FireNexus' post. Nothing wrong with that.

At least if you were brainwashed, you have an excuse as to why you believe in such childish things. I see you have none such. - Wicked Pilot (responding to Arthur Dent)

Wicked Pilot didn't share any kind of story but yet commented on Arthur Dent. No story from Wicked Pilot but an attack. Wonder why religious people are on the defensive.

Now this thread has degenerated.

XPViking

[haas mark]

Durandal did have faith at one time. His personal story is honest and sincere, and I see no reason to blast it because it violates some local Thought Police rule. Perhaps the thread starter should have said "nothing that might possibly annoy any religious person" as a ground rule, just to prevent this sort of horrid intrusion

<-- Was not trying to blast it, just saying that it wasn't necessary to point out (again) why faith is unreasonable.

[Wicked Pilot]

Wicked Pilot's comments (his first one in this thread) is just to inflame, causing religious people to be on the defensive and less willing to share.

You obviousily never did read my first comments on this thread. Go back and try again.

Wicked Pilot didn't share any kind of story but yet commented on Arthur Dent. No story from Wicked Pilot but an attack. Wonder why religious people are on the defensive.

Did you even read AuthurDent's post? If I may be able to quite DW here: "*Pre-emptive strike against atheists detected*"

[XPViking]

The Dark, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but are you just simply a Deist? - Wicked Pilot

Fair enough.

I have faith because of the personal experiences I have had, not because I was brought up a certain way...which I declare because some of you think that people can only have faith because they're brainwashed or were never given any freedom of thought at home. - Arthur Dent

Like you say, it could have been a premptive strike. Looks like both sides were trigger-happy. I suppose Arthur should have stopped after the first 21 words. On the other hand, the last part of Arthur's post could have just been overlooked too.

XPViking

[Wicked Pilot]

Fair enough. But do I see you sharing your own story?

I have shared it elsewhere. I could post it again if anyone is interested.

You asked a genuine question but then later attacked Arthur.

AuthurDent is an asshole, he deserves what he gets.

Does that really change the whole point of what I've said?

Probably not, so let me clarify. My beef is with AD, not anyone else posting on this thread. It was not my intention to come here flaming, hence the first post. My problem is with AD, not you XPViking, not you Howedar, nor anyone else here.
I hope you'll take that for what it's worth, and that's all I have to say about that.

[UltraViolence83]

I'm what I like to call myself "relatively agnostic," so I don't know if I should post in a thread for religious people, but I think some of my beliefs can be construed as "faith."

I've looked into metaphysics a good deal, and to my very mild shock I noticed there were many things consistant with it in my old perception of the universe before I looked into it. I've also had personal experiences like The Dark had, though I don't know if it was divine intervention, or my own will that allowed certain unlikely coincidences to come together.

[jegs2]

I've never understood having faith. so, I'm asking every religious person I can: Why do you have faith, in order to better understand. So far, most have either said they don't know or that it gives them hope.

And to non-religious (atheists, agonstics, etc.): Don't answer. You'll just parrot what I would think, anyway. I want the viewpoint of the faithful, here.

The best I've ever been able to explain about Christian faith is how we explain "true love" in terms of long-term commitment and the giving of one's self to another (i.e. marriage). For instance, you cannot scientifically and conclusively prove that a woman loves you before you commit to marriage. Rather you must have faith in her love (vice her marrying because of money or something else besides true love), and you must demonstrate that faith through the act of marriage. Only after the commitment of marriage does one see whether or not his faith was ill placed. So it is with faith in Christ -- one cannot see the fruits of faith until one has exercised that faith. So far as Biblical verses on faith, here are some examples:


John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
(NIV)

Here is an example of faith with which Jesus was impressed:


Matt 8:5-10
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."
8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
(NIV)

I used the example of "true love" (also Agape in ancient Greek) to demonstrate faith, although I think the above example was more effective. I hope that helps answer your question.

[Biddybot]

To you faithful who may be having trouble articulating why you believe, the following fictional conversation from a novel I'm just coincidently reading might be of interest:



'"What is she like, your mother?"

"She's a very sweet person," he said. "She always was. Sweet, quiet, somewhat stoical. Of course being helpless has tended to...she's very religious. She prays a great deal. There's no doubt in my mind that her belief in God and in the hereafter has kept her from going mad."

"Do you believe in God?"

He smiled. "How could I not believe in the God who's kept my mother from going mad?"

"You might believe in him as a force in your mother's mind without believing in him as a reality."

"That's true, of course, but I suppose I don't choose to differentiate. No. That's not true. The truth is that I'm wary of religious arguments. I've heard one too many. A thousand too many. All through school, amongst my friends who've left the Church and haven't, and so on. So I tend to not meet a question like that head on, as I should."

He was so decent. So honest. His decency and honesty were painful to her, as they must be to him.

"The truth," he said, "is that I have chosen to believe in Him. I'm not sure even that's true. I believe in Him and I choose not to challenge my own belief. Because if I found that my challenge was successful...I would feel myself totally alone. And then I would know despair."'

--from 'Looking For Mr. Goodbar', by Judith Rossner

[Durandal]

"The truth," he said, "is that I have chosen to believe in Him. I'm not sure even that's true. I believe in Him and I choose not to challenge my own belief. Because if I found that my challenge was successful...I would feel myself totally alone. And then I would know despair."'

--from 'Looking For Mr. Goodbar', by Judith Rossner

In other words, this guy has faith because he'd be miserable without it. I'd like to see how "miserable" the average person would be without faith if he hadn't been indoctrinated into it since birth. This kind of instilled dependence of faith shows just how insipid and despicable Christian indoctrination is. It's done to such an extent that you can't find a purpose for yourself in life without it. This is done by downplaying the love of your fellow man in comparison to God's love, so that you need this fictional love to survive because the love of your family and friends isn't good enough.

[ArthurDent]

AuthurDent is an asshole, he deserves what he gets.

I'm so hurt by that callous attack.

Probably not, so let me clarify. My beef is with AD, not anyone else posting on this thread. It was not my intention to come here flaming, hence the first post. My problem is with AD, not you XPViking, not you Howedar, nor anyone else here.

What beef would that be, anyway? You don't like me because I enforce the rules as established at SB or because of what I said here?