An Eye for an Eye....

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An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Broomstick »

When you read the following story ask yourself

1) Is this justice... or revenge?

2) Is this the sort of punishment a judicial system should be passing out for such a crime?
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- An Iranian woman, blinded by a jilted stalker who threw acid in her face, has persuaded a court to sentence him to be blinded with acid himself under Islamic law demanding an eye for an eye.

Ameneh Bahrami refused to accept "blood money." She insisted instead that her attacker suffer a fate similar to her own "so people like him would realize they do not have the right to throw acid in girls' faces," she told the Tehran Provincial Court.

Her attacker, a 27-year-old man identified in court papers as Majid, admitted throwing acid in her face in November 2004, blinding and disfiguring her. He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

He has until early this week to appeal the sentence.

Doctors say there is no chance Bahrami will recover her vision, despite repeated operations, including medical care in Spain partially paid for by Iran's reformist former president, Mohammed Khatami, who was in power when the attack took place.

Majid said he was still willing to marry Bahrami, but she ruled out the possibility and urged that he remain locked up.

"I am not willing to get blood money from the defendant, who is still thinking about destroying me and wants to take my eyes out," she told the court. "How could he pretend to be in love? If they let this guy go free, he will definitely kill me."

Bahrami told the court that Majid's mother had repeatedly tried to arrange a marriage between the two after Majid met Bahrami at university.

She rejected the offer, not even sure at first who the suitor was. Her friends told her he was a man who had once harassed her in class, leading to an argument between them.

But he refused to accept her rejection, she said, going to her workplace and threatening her.

Finally, she lied and told him she had married someone else and that "it would be better all around if he would leave [her] alone."

She told the court that she reported the conversation to police, saying he had threatened her with "burning for the rest of my life" -- but they said they could not act until a crime had been committed.

Two days later, on November 2, 2004, as she was walking home from work, she became aware of a man following her. She slowed, then stopped to let him pass.

"When the person came close, I realized that it was Majid," she said. "Everything happened in a second. He was holding a red container in his hand. He looked into my eyes for a second and threw the contents of the red container into my face."

Bahrami knew exactly what was happening, she said.

"At that moment, I saw in my mind the face of two sisters who years ago had the same thing happen to them. I thought, 'Oh, my God -- acid.' "

Passers-by tried to wash the acid off Bahrami, then took her to Labafinejad Hospital.

"They did everything possible for me," she said of the doctors and nurses there.

Then, one day, they asked her to sign papers allowing them to operate on her.

"I said, 'Do you want to take my eyes out?' The doctor cried and left."

They did want to remove her eyes surgically, she learned, for fear they would become infected, potentially leading to a fatal infection of her brain.

But she refused to allow it, both because she was not sure she could handle it psychologically, and because she thought her death would be easier for her family to bear.

"If I had died, my family would probably be sad for a year and mourn my death, and then they would get used to it," she told the court. "But now every day they look at me and see that I am slowly wasting away."

The three-judge panel ruled unanimously on November 26 that Majid should be blinded with acid and forced to pay compensation for the injuries to Bahrami's face, hands and body caused by the acid.

That was what she had demanded earlier in the trial. But she did not ask for his face to be disfigured, as hers was.

"Of course, only blind him and take his eyes, because I cannot behave the way he did and ask for acid to be thrown in his face," she said. "Because that would be [a] savage, barbaric act. Only take away his sight so that his eyes will become like mine. I am not saying this from a selfish motive. This is what society demands."

Attacking women and girls by throwing acid in their faces is sufficiently common in countries such as Bangladesh and Cambodia that groups have been formed to fight it. Human rights organizations have condemned the practice in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is not clear how often such attacks take place in Iran.

Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only countries that consider eye-gouging to be a legitimate judicial punishment, Human Rights Watch has said
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Surlethe »

There's something satisfying about this: the creepy fuck gets what's coming to him. Turning over this case in my head I'm inclined to think that this punishment is justified, just as I would think that the death penalty is warranted for a serial killer. But when considering whether such punishments ought to be commonplace in a judicial system, one must consider the possibility of failure, as well as judicial system biases -- that's the basis for an argument against an American death penalty, for instance: claiming that the error rate is too high to condone widespread use of capital punishment.

Is this justice? I think so. Is it revenge? Yes, too. Are the two necessarily opposed to each other, or should justice include a revenge component?
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by fuzzymillipede »

Well, I can't say I feel sorry for that guy. Still, that sentence is pretty barbaric. To those who know more about legal things than I, what kind of sentence could he expect had this happened in the USA?
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Rye »

My initial instinct is to have him killed and his organs harvested, rather than blinded, after all, a blind person will have to be looked after by everyone else. This will create another dependant that the world would be better off without. I agree with Surlethe's considerations about how common such things should be, and I have to agree not much. If you sentence someone to this punishment, I see no reason why, upon the emergence of new, exonerating evidence after the event, you shouldn't be sentenced to the same punishment. If you're so sure it's the right judgement, you will brave that risk, won't you?

The judgement by the courts is a matter of revenge and justice, and that's the way it should be in any legal system to be honest; reform is important but so is punishment, and punishment is revenge with an adult's seal of approval, little more.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Broomstick »

fuzzymillipede wrote:Well, I can't say I feel sorry for that guy. Still, that sentence is pretty barbaric. To those who know more about legal things than I, what kind of sentence could he expect had this happened in the USA?
In the US? Jail time and fine - which might be considerable. This might be considered attempted murder, depending on the details of the circumstances.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Kanastrous »

It's impossible to know from the reportage, but from another story I read it sounds as though her attacker might be (maybe) clinically nutty, himself.

That's about the only thing that restrains me from shrugging it off as rough justice for someone who's got it coming.

In the US I imagine charges like assault, battery, maybe assault-with-a-deadly (for the use of the acid), malicious wounding and yeah, maybe attempted murder.


*edit* one thing that stuck out to me, in that other report, was the mention of her injuries' severity being worse because in the ER they didn't immediately disrobe her and wash her down.

Tell me it's just a coincidence, that a female patient is denied immediate effective treatment requiring her to strip, when the ER happens to be located in an Islamic Republic.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Bilbo »

Kanastrous wrote:It's impossible to know from the reportage, but from another story I read it sounds as though her attacker might be (maybe) clinically nutty, himself.

That's about the only thing that restrains me from shrugging it off as rough justice for someone who's got it coming.

In the US I imagine charges like assault, battery, maybe assault-with-a-deadly (for the use of the acid), malicious wounding and yeah, maybe attempted murder.


*edit* one thing that stuck out to me, in that other report, was the mention of her injuries' severity being worse because in the ER they didn't immediately disrobe her and wash her down.

Tell me it's just a coincidence, that a female patient is denied immediate effective treatment requiring her to strip, when the ER happens to be located in an Islamic Republic.
That and he would never receive parole. The victim could just show up for the parole hearing and sit there forcing the board to look at her while considering if he deserves to get out early.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

I don't really see this as being a morally appropriate punishment. Just because one guy's an asshole doesn't mean society needs to do the exact same thing back to them. In the interests of public, safety, he certainly ought to be removed, but anything more than that, plus monetary compensation, is bizarre and unnecessarily cruel. I don't think if someone gets beaten to death we ought to have a bunch of corrections officers beat the inmate too. The whole Lex Talonis thing is based on the idea that one really bad action somehow justifies repeating it to the same extreme.

Making the victim feel better and compensated is certainly part of the justice system, but it's not the only concern. Personally, I support more of a public safety approach, quarantine approach in these situations. I don't think we ought to be just as violent to them as they happened to be in respect for some abstract sense of cosmic balance.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Even in the US, where we have the death penalty, someone who is convicted of a capital crime that involved him (or her) brutally rape, torture and kill a victim isn't put through the same thing the victim was. If anything, we might say that state-sanctioned execution is rather clinical in intent (if not precisely in practice).

That isn't to say that there may not be an excruciating death (electrocution gone wrong, etc.), but we also don't drag someone into a public venue and make a spectacle of it. The family of the victim may attend the execution, but they do not get to push the button or throw the switch.

Here, might this eye-removal be satisfying to the victim? It seems she isn't out for personal gratification in this man's judicial disfigurement, but the victim also isn't the one carrying out the punishment herself. Someone else has to do it. Why should that person have to perform an act of retribution and have blood on his hands? Or in this case, a man's sight. Leaving aside that the wrong person may be suffer at the hands of a vengeful court's bizarre punishment.
"Of course, only blind him and take his eyes, because I cannot behave the way he did and ask for acid to be thrown in his face," she said. "Because that would be [a] savage, barbaric act. Only take away his sight so that his eyes will become like mine. I am not saying this from a selfish motive. This is what society demands."
Hardly savage, indeed: "only blind him and take his eyes." While I sympathize with this woman, I find this attitude monstrous. I'd prefer that we supposedly civilized humans not act like savages and the Iranian justice system is pretty damn savage. Stoning of adulterers, etc. There's little to admire there.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by mr friendly guy »

I saw this article in our paper today. The guy pretty much admitted he did it, so its not likely they got the wrong person by mistake.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Solauren »

Is an organ transplant a viable solution to the woman's situtation?

if so, I'm in favor of forced donation from the offender.


As for the morality of the situtation, and all that.

Quite frankly, if the situtation is that bad, acid throwing in face, that groups are forming to fight it, well, clearly, an example needs to be sent and said. If blinding this asshole will do that, I'm all for it.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Broomstick »

One of the reasons this sort of acid attack continues to occur is that the perpetrators do it with little or no penalty - if a consequence of throwing acid in a woman's face is the loss of your own sight then such a penalty may have a deterrent effect.

The next question is whether or not the end - deterrence - justifies the means - destroying someone's eyes.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Kanastrous »

It will make the victim feel better and it offers a degree of deterrence impress me as adequate reasons for this to move forward. Not to mention that inactivating this guy's eyeballs virtually guarantees against future offenses.

People who run around dumping buckets of acid over their fellow citizens don't promise to be terribly useful to the society at large, so the perpetrator's future ability to contribute to society doesn't seem like a big concern.

At the moment he attacked his victim he demonstrated his regard for the health and safety of others. I don't personally believe that an individual has innate claim to better treatment than he offers his fellows.

FS, this hardly equates with 'stoning of adulterers,' or even bears mention in the same paragraph. 'Stoning of adulterers' is double homicide over breach-of-contract and (maybe sometimes) emotional distress. The eyeball matter is pretty alien to modern Western practice, but still falls far short of that.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Darth Onasi »

No human being or any other animal for that matter deserves such a fate.
However I'm of the opinion that if you commit such a vicious crime, you forfeit your rights as a living entity. I wouldn't necesarilly advocate a punishment that exactly mirrors the crime over simply killing them and removing the scum from the world, but I certainly won't decry it either. Fuck him.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Kanastrous »

Darth Onasi wrote:No human being or any other animal for that matter deserves such a fate.
Okay.
Darth Onasi wrote:However I'm of the opinion that if you commit such a vicious crime, you forfeit your rights as a living entity. I wouldn't necesarilly advocate a punishment that exactly mirrors the crime over simply killing them and removing the scum from the world, but I certainly won't decry it either. Fuck him.
The two statements are difficult to reconcile. He doesn't deserve the punishment, but in spite of that you still believe he should receive it?
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Surlethe »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't really see this as being a morally appropriate punishment. Just because one guy's an asshole doesn't mean society needs to do the exact same thing back to them.
Why?
In the interests of public, safety, he certainly ought to be removed, but anything more than that, plus monetary compensation, is bizarre and unnecessarily cruel.
Why?
I don't think if someone gets beaten to death we ought to have a bunch of corrections officers beat the inmate too. The whole Lex Talonis thing is based on the idea that one really bad action somehow justifies repeating it to the same extreme.
It's based on the notion of fairness: if you treat others poorly, you should expect to be treated as poorly.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Kanastrous »

Surlethe wrote: It's based on the notion of fairness: if you treat others poorly, you should expect to be treated as poorly.
I think some people twist that into the idea that by punishing someone, you make yourself morally interchangeable, with them.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Darth Onasi »

Kanastrous wrote:The two statements are difficult to reconcile. He doesn't deserve the punishment, but in spite of that you still believe he should receive it?
No, I mean that I personally wouldn't punish him that way, or call for that sort of punishment as I feel that a civilised justice system should not resort to the vulgar methods of criminals and should simply terminate them (of course only if the crime is that major, in this case I think it is. Depriving someone of sight in such a vicious way deserves nothing less).
However, I do think he fully deserves it.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Blinding him is purely retributive, and, unlike many punishments, actively prevents him from contributing to the society which he has harmed. Harsh revenge has never been shown to act as a reliable deterrent (See: Post-Renaissance England, where public hangings of thieves resulted in numerous pickpocketings from audience members) and therefore there is no purpose to this sort of punishment - which, being unorthodox, which likely have no small risk or cost involved - aside from the victim's emotional well-being. It will neither recompensate her no repair the damage to society. It is therefore not justice of any sort.

The inability of the perpetrator to re-offend is negated by his inability to repair this breach against society.

I would further argue that 'permanent' justice (such as capital punishment, or permanent blinding or castration) should never be embarked upon by a society, if only because of the dehumanizing philosophy that this implies.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

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Kanastrous wrote:FS, this hardly equates with 'stoning of adulterers,' or even bears mention in the same paragraph. 'Stoning of adulterers' is double homicide over breach-of-contract and (maybe sometimes) emotional distress. The eyeball matter is pretty alien to modern Western practice, but still falls far short of that.
I inserted that merely to emphasize what I see as a barbaric system of justice in Iran, be it disfigurement of criminals (including the amputation of thieves' hands and feet), execution of children and the like, but it may well not be appropriate here.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:I would further argue that 'permanent' justice (such as capital punishment, or permanent blinding or castration) should never be embarked upon by a society, if only because of the dehumanizing philosophy that this implies.
I agree with this. I have no problem imprisoning him, taking away his liberty. But I cannot bring myself to advocate such penalties as removal of his eyes. And I wonder, how do they intend to proceed with this? Is he going to have his eyes surgically removed by some doctor while strapped to an operating table, after being put under anesthesia? Or is someone going to pluck them out with a hook? The entire affair is horrifying.

This blinded woman is fortunate she wasn't merely raped. She may have been hung for it.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Broomstick »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:I agree with this. I have no problem imprisoning him, taking away his liberty. But I cannot bring myself to advocate such penalties as removal of his eyes. And I wonder, how do they intend to proceed with this? Is he going to have his eyes surgically removed by some doctor while strapped to an operating table, after being put under anesthesia? Or is someone going to pluck them out with a hook? The entire affair is horrifying.
Apparently, one option was to throw acid in his face, in a reenactment of what he did to his victim. Really, there's no guarantee of any sort of anesthetic or painkiller for this felon.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Kanastrous »

^ I didn't post that; FS did. Credit where it's due.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

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Kanastrous wrote:^ I didn't post that; FS did. Credit where it's due.
Broomstick's just doing that to keep us on our toes here. ;)

And please, Call me Drone. Or Jackass, whatever is warranted. "FS" is so impersonal-sounding, somehow. :P
Broomstick wrote:Apparently, one option was to throw acid in his face, in a reenactment of what he did to his victim. Really, there's no guarantee of any sort of anesthetic or painkiller for this felon.
Yeah, I don't expect so.

Speaking of "eye for an eye," I wonder, are rapists in Iran raped themselves, or are they just executed?

Sometimes, they are flogged and thrown over a cliff:

(Warning, picture men in nooses at the link)
Iran: Two youths to be flogged and cast off a cliff

Tehran, 10 Jan. (AKI) - Iran's supreme court has confirmed that two youths, found guilty of rape will receive 100 lashes each before being cast off a cliff - an ancient Islamic punishment - local media reported. The reports named the youths as Tayeb and Yazdan.

"This is a chilling sentence," said Iranian human rights activist and lawyer Mohammad Ali Dadkhah.

"Iranian jurisprudence allows alternative punishments to those prescribed by Islamic law, but many judges ignore them, " Dadhkhah said.

Iranian magistrates in recent weeks sentenced several people to punishments that had been in abeyance, he said. As recently as last week in Iranian Balochistan, five minority Sunnis had their hands and feet amputated, he noted.

All five Sunnis were found guilty of the crime of 'moharebeh' or enmity towards Allah. The highly vague definition of 'enemy of God' ranges from homosexuals and drug traffickers to supporters or members of armed groups opposed to the regime.

Iran in the past two days hanged seven people for drug trafficking. In 2007, it executed at least 297 people, according to campaign group Amnesty International.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

Post by Stuart »

Broomstick wrote: Apparently, one option was to throw acid in his face, in a reenactment of what he did to his victim. Really, there's no guarantee of any sort of anesthetic or painkiller for this felon.
If it puts a stop to the current epidemic of acid-throwing then it's justified. The original article understates what's going on, in Bangladesh, acid attacks are so common there is a special government department to handle the situation. The most usual situation is a woman is approached in a market or other public location and propositioned. If she refuses, the man throws acid in her face because she "insulted his honor". If she accepts, she gets the acid for "immorality" - after the horizontal jogging of course. Another common case is a woman gets a micro-loan from one of the foundations that give such loans to set up a small business. Then, her husband demands the money (usually for drinking or womanizing) and if she refuses to hand it over, she gets a faceful of acid (and then divorced). Nor is this restricted to Islamic countries although the problem is at its worst there. Cambodia is also suffering from an epidemic of acid attacks on women, there they have the charming habit of keeping the woman prisoner for several hours to make sure her face is completely destroyed..

Just for once, I approve of something an Iranian Court has decided. There's no doubt this slimeball is guilty, give him the same treatment he gave his victim, then let him spend the rest of his miserable life begging on the streets. Let him serve as an object lesson to anyone else who has an ideas in this direction.

A different approach in one country I worked in also worked well. Normally the ladies of negotiable virtue carry knives (very sensible, at the range they need such weapons, a knife is much better than a gun). Then, a few of the girls started carrying bottles of acid in their bags and it was only a question of time before one such girl used it on another in a cat-fight. This led to some of the pimps carrying the stuff as well. So, the police sent out word by way of the grapevine. They'd be doing spot-checks of people at random. Anybody caught carrying a bottle of acid would be required to drink it. The first carrier they caught was a particularly nasty pimp and the police were as good as their word. Stopped the problem stone dead.
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Re: An Eye for an Eye....

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FSTargetDrone wrote:
[...]Iran's supreme court has confirmed that two youths, found guilty of rape will receive 100 lashes each before being cast off a cliff [...]
For some bizarre reason, this description amuses me. Does that make me a bad person? :P
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