Most EFFECTIVE military training programs

[Bilbo]

The trouble with that is that their ammo supplies were limited as hell. We also don't know how sensitive the defense guns would have been to severe atmospheric disturbances, since they apparently tracked motion.

Ammo was the same as indoors. Being outdoors gives you range on them and a better chance at defense in depth. Inside you are limited to the choke points made by the structure. Out side you can set a perimeter, I also remember they have flares (or was that just cuz the second drop ship had em?) that would make nice booby traps too, to light up an approaching enemy.

Regurdless, rather have the range than the structure. Start engaging at max effective range with the weapons.

If not for the airvents and drop ceiling that everyone was too dumb to think about being indoors gives you the ability to create killzones where you can mincemeat the xenoes.

Unfortunately the colony was designed as an office building more than a colony. The only real structural features of the whole place was the exterior walls. Meaning if there had been an accident early in the colonies history before the outer air was breathable everyone in the colony would have died. If you cannot seal any area well enough to keep xenoes from easily crawying in then you certainly are not somewhere that can be made airtight.

[SylasGaunt]

If not for the airvents and drop ceiling that everyone was too dumb to think about being indoors gives you the ability to create killzones where you can mincemeat the xenoes.

Unfortunately the colony was designed as an office building more than a colony. The only real structural features of the whole place was the exterior walls. Meaning if there had been an accident early in the colonies history before the outer air was breathable everyone in the colony would have died. If you cannot seal any area well enough to keep xenoes from easily crawying in then you certainly are not somewhere that can be made airtight.

IIRC one of the problems that doesn't get mentioned in the movie, I think it was the novelization but I'm not sure, is that the Colonists had modified the colony buildings as they went which meant it didn't match up exactly with their plans. Ripley also suggests this when they're picking up the incoming Xenos in command.

[Bilbo]

If not for the airvents and drop ceiling that everyone was too dumb to think about being indoors gives you the ability to create killzones where you can mincemeat the xenoes.

Unfortunately the colony was designed as an office building more than a colony. The only real structural features of the whole place was the exterior walls. Meaning if there had been an accident early in the colonies history before the outer air was breathable everyone in the colony would have died. If you cannot seal any area well enough to keep xenoes from easily crawying in then you certainly are not somewhere that can be made airtight.

IIRC one of the problems that doesn't get mentioned in the movie, I think it was the novelization but I'm not sure, is that the Colonists had modified the colony buildings as they went which meant it didn't match up exactly with their plans. Ripley also suggests this when they're picking up the incoming Xenos in command.

She does say "we missed something, something not in the plans" maybe they edited out a line where she says the colonists must have made changes.

I would love to have someone explain blast doors that can be bypassed via drop ceillings and 4ft x 4ft air vents.

[TheMuffinKing]

She does say "we missed something, something not in the plans" maybe they edited out a line where she says the colonists must have made changes.

I would love to have someone explain blast doors that can be bypassed via drop ceillings and 4ft x 4ft air vents.

Pure speculation, but maybe they went around and found an exterior ventilation outlet. During the escape from the med-lab/control towards the end of the movie the marines and aliens traveled through huge ass ducts. Heck the facility has huge airways as evidenced by Newt's hideaway too. Keeping this in mind I don't think it would be a huge stretch of the imagination for those passages to be utilized. As for the floor portions, your guess is as good as mine.

[Shadowtraveler]

I would love to have someone explain blast doors that can be bypassed via drop ceillings and 4ft x 4ft air vents.

Those definately were not blast doors.

[Zixinus]

So, what can be considered to be a effective training program that doesn't involve brain-implants?
What is it that could only be done in sci-fi but would significantly offer better training compared to modern-day?

For example, does Starfleet use holowhaits to give fairly realistic combat simulations if they can simulate injury well enough, although I wonder whether they realise it.

Also, it must be considered that in what warfare are soldiers trained. Even modern-day elite units specialise in certain tasks (that obviously doesn't mean they can't do other task). The marines focus on amphibious warfare, the SAS is primarily an anti-terror unit, etc.

[Renegade]

To actually attempt to answer the question posted... The Astartes have it (unless Vader is Using his Jedi/Sith training.)

You can choose whatever weapon sets you like, an Imperial Spacemarine is impervious to all but the most devastating of weapons and (according to the novels) can best a hundred mortal men in close combat. They are conditioned to ignore fear, pain, and physical trauma. Even naked and armed with a stick (WW1 bolt-action rifle) the Adeptus Astartes would prevail.

[Uraniun235]

Yeah but they're not even human any more, I mean I could write a story in which people's brains are transferred into super-advanced war robots and call that the ultimate training but it's not really the case, is it? Being "impervious to all but the most devastating of weapons" doesn't take training, it takes superadvanced technology and a lot of surgery and a generous heaping of writer's fiat.

[PainRack]

To actually attempt to answer the question posted... The Astartes have it (unless Vader is Using his Jedi/Sith training.)

You can choose whatever weapon sets you like, an Imperial Spacemarine is impervious to all but the most devastating of weapons and (according to the novels) can best a hundred mortal men in close combat. They are conditioned to ignore fear, pain, and physical trauma. Even naked and armed with a stick (WW1 bolt-action rifle) the Adeptus Astartes would prevail.

Except that their failure rate, even prior to the geneseed implants is extremely high.

[Connor MacLeod]

Part of the thing with the failure rate though is how obsessively they screen applicants and the crudity in which they do it. They only take those who are the best warriors (as boys) prior to implantation, ,and then of that they only take those who are not only the most genetically compatible with the implants but also those who are free of mutation. Then there's issues like sanity, taint, loyalty and indoctrination, on top of all the killer training. And then you have cases like the Blood Ravens where they will kill a recruit if the recruit can't stand the pain and wants to die instead.

In practice its not much better/worse than the SPARTAN training in Halo (at leas in terms of effectiveness) and can only be justified insofar as there ARE threats in 40K that could require such men, and they represent an elite force rather than main-line forces.

I vaguely recall that during the Pre-Heresy/Heresy era they were less rigorous.

[Shadowtraveler]

Not really. The Death Guard serf in Flight of the Eisenstein (set pre-Heresy) was a failed recruit, and was noted to be unusual since the training usually killed anyone who failed. It may just be that particular legion, though.

[andrewgpaul]

It could be Legion-dependent. The main character in Descent of Angels gets implanted and inducted into the Dark Angels legion, despite being years older than usual for recruits. It points out that, even though he's huge for normal men, he makes a rather wimpy Space Marine.

[Imperial Overlord]

Not really. The Death Guard serf in Flight of the Eisenstein (set pre-Heresy) was a failed recruit, and was noted to be unusual since the training usually killed anyone who failed. It may just be that particular legion, though.

It's pretty common. Most chapters crew their ships with chapter serfs (the washouts who live) and servitors.


Sauron Cyborgs would do well in this competition, for the same reasons that Astartes would. They're another bunch of genetically engineered, biomechanically augmented super soldiers with extensive training.

[Samuel]

So, what can be considered to be a effective training program that doesn't involve brain-implants?
What is it that could only be done in sci-fi but would significantly offer better training compared to modern-day?

For example, does Starfleet use holowhaits to give fairly realistic combat simulations if they can simulate injury well enough, although I wonder whether they realise it.

Also, it must be considered that in what warfare are soldiers trained. Even modern-day elite units specialise in certain tasks (that obviously doesn't mean they can't do other task). The marines focus on amphibious warfare, the SAS is primarily an anti-terror unit, etc.

If it was feasible,modern militaries would be using it.

[Bilbo]

When determining effective shouldnt recruit versus trained soldier ratios appply? If a program creates the uber soldier but there are a couple dozen if not more washouts in the process then the training if not that effective.

When the training sucess ratio drops below a certain point then you start to wonder how much luck plays into surviving the training.

Also cost should matter. If it costs a billion dollars to train the uber soldier or a hundred thousand to train a good soldier then I am going with the good soldier. Him and his 10,000 buddies are going to mob the lone uber soldier.

[Hawkwings]

Results also matter. If you wash out a million recruits and get 100 soldiers, but then those 100 soldiers kill a couple billion enemies and win the war, is that effective training?

[Darth Ruinus]

Results also matter. If you wash out a million recruits and get 100 soldiers, but then those 100 soldiers kill a couple billion enemies and win the war, is that effective training?

You can't base the effectiveness of the program on whether you win the war or not. For instance, in your example, say they didn't win the war, but each soldier still killed billions of enemies, does this mean the training is not effective? No, they could have lost for a variety of reasons, your ships are too slow, the enemy could afford those losses etc etc.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No he is pointing out that the marine in question was holding his weapon wrong long before he was grabbed which is what caused him to torch his buddies when he was grabbed. If he had kept his finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard which is how you are supposed to hold a weapon every second of every day except when you are pulling said trigger this would not have happened.

Guess that makes you the fucking moron.

Not really. In a violent situation like that accidents can still happen even if someone is following the rules. Which is what Consequence has been saying this entire time. Now, unless you can tell me that the marine in question had his finger in the trigger guard prior to being attacked then you don't have jack and shit...and jack left town, motherfucker.

[consequences]

Just so we're clear, you're holding people responsible for shit they do while actively being grabbed. That's all I really need to know, you're a fucking moron.

No he is pointing out that the marine in question was holding his weapon wrong long before he was grabbed which is what caused him to torch his buddies when he was grabbed. If he had kept his finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard which is how you are supposed to hold a weapon every second of every day except when you are pulling said trigger this would not have happened.

Guess that makes you the fucking moron.

Wow, managed to miss this one. Point out where Dietrich had her weapon pointed down enough to achieve a blue on blue, before the armor plated killing machine started yanking her towards the ceiling(incidentally also turning her slightly to bring Frost within her potential line of fire). In fact, the marines' weapons discipline wasn't bad at all before they made contact, and they looked to be making damned sure that they weren't going to accidentally shoot each other(weapons pointed upwards, especially when crossing behind another marine).

I'd do a frame by frame check on the trigger guard, but I'm working off of a frakking On-Demand movie right now which means I can't even pause the thing without her hands on the flamer being obscured.

So kindly piss off unless you have something useful, relevant, and based on the facts at hand to present.

[Bilbo]

Just so we're clear, you're holding people responsible for shit they do while actively being grabbed. That's all I really need to know, you're a fucking moron.

No he is pointing out that the marine in question was holding his weapon wrong long before he was grabbed which is what caused him to torch his buddies when he was grabbed. If he had kept his finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard which is how you are supposed to hold a weapon every second of every day except when you are pulling said trigger this would not have happened.

Guess that makes you the fucking moron.

Wow, managed to miss this one. Point out where Dietrich had her weapon pointed down enough to achieve a blue on blue, before the armor plated killing machine started yanking her towards the ceiling(incidentally also turning her slightly to bring Frost within her potential line of fire). In fact, the marines' weapons discipline wasn't bad at all before they made contact, and they looked to be making damned sure that they weren't going to accidentally shoot each other(weapons pointed upwards, especially when crossing behind another marine).

I'd do a frame by frame check on the trigger guard, but I'm working off of a frakking On-Demand movie right now which means I can't even pause the thing without her hands on the flamer being obscured.

So kindly piss off unless you have something useful, relevant, and based on the facts at hand to present.

Yep, fire discipline SOOO good that the heavy machingunners both disobeyed ordered and rearmed their weapons. SOOO good that a marine nearly gunned down a small child.

Yep these guys are the ELITE and show excellent discipline.

[Typhonis 1]

Why did they surrender all of their magazines to one man to begin with instead of securing them indiviually in case they needed them? Also what about spare magazines? Isn't the typical loadout today one in the rifle and six backups for an M-16?

[TheMuffinKing]

Why did they surrender all of their magazines to one man to begin with instead of securing them indiviually in case they needed them? Also what about spare magazines? Isn't the typical loadout today one in the rifle and six backups for an M-16?

I'm guessing they did this due to the unknown (to the marines) nature of the threat. They probably figured they could consolidate their ammo and leave it with one guy because they would encounter all the colonists huddled together, not a hive of alien killing machines. Granted this does not excuse what they did, even the green Lt. should have exercised better judgment. As for loadouts, I thought each force tailored it to the situation, granted in my experience I did have six mags in pouches and one for my rifle though I was in the USAF.

Does the Colonial marines tech manual shed more light on the subject? I don't have a copy.

As an aside, I figure the Marines could have done no worse if Lt. Gorman were to rely more on Sgt. Apone's leadership and experience. The Lt. could have remained in charge and overseen the operation from the APC but could also have granted tactical command to Apone. I figure Sgt. Apone would be able to issue orders more easily by being closer and not having interference. At the very least I think he could have orchestrated a more controlled withdrawal while suffering less casualties in the process.

We could speculate on this all day I suppose, especially since we have members with pertinent tactical experience at the fire team level. I know this is going OT, but wasn't Aliens supposed to be a Vietnam allegory, especially concerning the missteps and disasters caused by inexperienced leadership and stuff?

[Bilbo]

Why did they surrender all of their magazines to one man to begin with instead of securing them indiviually in case they needed them? Also what about spare magazines? Isn't the typical loadout today one in the rifle and six backups for an M-16?

I'm guessing they did this due to the unknown (to the marines) nature of the threat. They probably figured they could consolidate their ammo and leave it with one guy because they would encounter all the colonists huddled together, not a hive of alien killing machines. Granted this does not excuse what they did, even the green Lt. should have exercised better judgment. As for loadouts, I thought each force tailored it to the situation, granted in my experience I did have six mags in pouches and one for my rifle though I was in the USAF.

Does the Colonial marines tech manual shed more light on the subject? I don't have a copy.

As an aside, I figure the Marines could have done no worse if Lt. Gorman were to rely more on Sgt. Apone's leadership and experience. The Lt. could have remained in charge and overseen the operation from the APC but could also have granted tactical command to Apone. I figure Sgt. Apone would be able to issue orders more easily by being closer and not having interference. At the very least I think he could have orchestrated a more controlled withdrawal while suffering less casualties in the process.

We could speculate on this all day I suppose, especially since we have members with pertinent tactical experience at the fire team level. I know this is going OT, but wasn't Aliens supposed to be a Vietnam allegory, especially concerning the missteps and disasters caused by inexperienced leadership and stuff?

One guy got all the magazines because that is what the LT said. "Apone we can't have any firing in there. I want you to collect all the magazines."

One item that does not make sense is the comm system. Apone had a hard time hearing the Lt which is part of why he died. He was paying atttention to mike and not to his surroundings. Yet everything set up with the APC suggests that this is a fairly normal or planned practice. Which leads to the question how is this supposed to work in combat? This is a firefight with only one side firing weapons and some guys yelling and its enough to limit communication. In a major firefight with a real enemy I cannot imagine how Apone would have heard anything at all.

[Darth Ruinus]

The reactor may have been causing interference.

[Bilbo]

The reactor may have been causing interference.

Which means we can travel acorss the galaxy but we cannot make a radio that works near a reactor, or we are too stupid to take the radios that will work even though we know from looking at the blueprints that we will be going into the basement of a giant reactor.

Who do the Colonial Marines normally fight? They threw around the term "bughunt" enough to suggest that dealing with hostile alien wildlife is fairly common for them. But in the Alien universe are there other intelligent species that humanity fights? Or has humanity taken itslf into the stars and is still fighting itself?