CrossoverManiac's little calculation...

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, CM, your "evidence" for negative mass hypermatter is disproven by canonical evidence. When starships with repulsorlifts land, they kick up dust and stuff, PROVING that they do not operate on the basis of "negative mass," which would not affect anything outside of the starship. Thanks for playing.

[Darth Wong]

And I notice you ignored the other, larger point in which I noted both your hypocrisy in recognizing positive/negative mass cancellation here but in relation to your own theory, or your idiotic assumption that if it were possible, it would happen all the time because you assume no one would ever design safeguards to prevent it.

Why would they want to prevent it? If hypermatter has a negative mass, then it would work just like a repulsorlift. So long it could be done it a controlled manner, it would be useful.

If it was done in a controller manner, there would be no catastrophic cancellation of the ship's mass as you theorize. So once again, your point is moot.

All you're trying to do is change the subject away from the laughable failure of your argument.

[Crossover_Maniac]

CM's latest trick: Trying to disprove a fictional technology by pointing out that it can't perform an unrelated phenomenon.

Ender already pointed out that the real mass component would stay at slower than light while the imaginary mass must constantly move faster than c. Shifting all of the hypermatter to imaginary mass still leaves you the same problem as before. Before, SW never attempted to explain how it worked. It obviously works even if it wouldn't work the way the books say it would. Warp drive can't work without negative energy 10 billion times greater than the amount of energy in the universe if you could somehow cover matter into negative energy. If it wasn't for the fictious 'subspace', there would be no warp drive.

[Darth Wong]

CM's latest trick: Trying to disprove a fictional technology by pointing out that it can't perform an unrelated phenomenon.

Ender already pointed out that the real mass component would stay at slower than light while the imaginary mass must constantly move faster than c. Shifting all of the hypermatter to imaginary mass still leaves you the same problem as before.

If the magnitude of the vector stays the same, then the total mass/energy of the ship is arguably unchanged.

Before, SW never attempted to explain how it worked. It obviously works even if it wouldn't work the way the books say it would.

Nevertheless, you must provide a reason why it wouldn't work, and by the standards of sci-fi, a goofy explanation which works only from a purely mathematical sense is quite frankly pretty good.

Warp drive can't work without negative energy 10 billion times greater than the amount of energy in the universe if you could somehow cover matter into negative energy. If it wasn't for the fictious 'subspace', there would be no warp drive.

Of course, which is why we accept that in both SW and ST, they have a way of cheaply making gravity. How does this support your argument that they can't possibly use hypermatter as specified in the official literature even though it requires LESS bullshit than subspace? At least the math has some semblance of meaning; subspace is just a meaningless filler term.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, another possibility is that it dumps a quantity of hyperspace mass/energy equal to its entire realspace mass into realspace in the form of neutrinos or some other form of particle or EM radiation each time it does a hyperspace jump, thus replacing its realspace mass with this waste. This would help explain why a large warship uses up more energy in a single jump than an entire planetary civilization produces over millenia.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And I notice you ignored the other, larger point in which I noted both your hypocrisy in recognizing positive/negative mass cancellation here but in relation to your own theory, or your idiotic assumption that if it were possible, it would happen all the time because you assume no one would ever design safeguards to prevent it.

Why would they want to prevent it? If hypermatter has a negative mass, then it would work just like a repulsorlift. So long it could be done it a controlled manner, it would be useful.

If it was done in a controller manner, there would be no catastrophic cancellation of the ship's mass as you theorize. So once again, your point is moot.

All you're trying to do is change the subject away from the laughable failure of your argument.

I did not change the subject. That's a lie. If SW ships use hypermatter to change its mass into an imaginary value, it still has to get rid of its real mass and has to give its hypermatter a negative value to cancel out the positive mass. If it doesn't use that method, then it's a moot point.

[Darth Wong]

If it was done in a controller manner, there would be no catastrophic cancellation of the ship's mass as you theorize. So once again, your point is moot.

All you're trying to do is change the subject away from the laughable failure of your argument.

I did not change the subject. That's a lie. If SW ships use hypermatter to change its mass into an imaginary value, it still has to get rid of its real mass and has to give its hypermatter a negative value to cancel out the positive mass. If it doesn't use that method, then it's a moot point.

Explain why you feel it must work that way, particularly with reference to the bit about how it has to go negative. I've already pointed out that the magnitude of the vector doesn't change, so why must it go negative?

PS. You ARE changing the subject. You had originally claimed, among other laughable items, that the Death Star might use positive and negative masses to cancel out the recoil of its beam without cancelling out its energy. Rather than concede that this makes no sense whatsoever since the negative mass would simply cancel out positive mass in the beam, you simply stopped talking about and started claiming that hypermatter can't possibly be complex mass.

[SirNitram]

I'll throw in some points.

1) The Death Star can jump to lightspeed, and numerous accounts(Not to mention visuals) show this is an action where it accelerates to a speed very near c. This shows that the engines can easily withstand the recoil, even if we ignore the insane mass of a ship that big.

2) Superlaser technology is repeatedly stated to be an extension of turbolaser technology, and no turbolaser causes the metal of a ship's hull to react catastrophically, disproving this moronic idea.

3) Hypermatter most likely does have complex mass. Why? Because Hypermatter in RL(Made from particles called Hyperions) has complex mass.

4) I hardly find Ender a prime candidate to explain where the excess mass of 'complex mass' goes, as he needed the point explained to him. If you suddenly know where the mass is, I suggest you go tell some scientists how you found that out, they'd pay you good money for figuring out that mystery.

5) Since the quote in the Ep II ICS says the ship's complex mass, not the fuel, it would be suggested the level of technology in SW is capable of playing with the mass of normal matter. One could argue this is unrealistic, but it is sci-fi, things like that can happen. And thinking about this possibility nicely cleans up a number of very difficult subjects of technology in SW.

[Darth Wong]

I like the way Trekkies scream "it might work out in numbers, but there's no way to make it work in reality!" despite having crowed triumphantly for years that Alcubierre's warp drive makes Trek realistic, even though it DOESN'T work out, even in numbers

[SirNitram]

I like the way Trekkies scream "it might work out in numbers, but there's no way to make it work in reality!" despite having crowed triumphantly for years that Alcubierre's warp drive makes Trek realistic, even though it DOESN'T work out, even in numbers

Usual hypocrisy. It's funny, though. If it's undefined magic, it's alright, but the instant we start quantifying the capabilities, we're evil, evil men. Of course, the fact that quantifying things inevitably leads to Wars being more advanced might have to do with it..

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not to thread hijack, but what was the deal with Alcubierre's warp anyway?

[SirNitram]

Not to thread hijack, but what was the deal with Alcubierre's warp anyway?

As far as I understood it, you wrap negative energy around a ship and it warps timespace around you, allowing you to pull your destination to you. Except negative energy has never been proven to exist.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh, that. And is this information about hypermatter and hyperspace from the ICS or what?

I don't remember it going into detail about the roles, I just remember it mentioning the hypermatter cores.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Not to thread hijack, but what was the deal with Alcubierre's warp anyway?

As far as I understood it, you wrap negative energy around a ship and it warps timespace around you, allowing you to pull your destination to you. Except negative energy has never been proven to exist.

Neither has imaginary mass.

[SirNitram]

Not to thread hijack, but what was the deal with Alcubierre's warp anyway?

As far as I understood it, you wrap negative energy around a ship and it warps timespace around you, allowing you to pull your destination to you. Except negative energy has never been proven to exist.

Neither has imaginary mass.

Complex mass has.

[SirNitram]

Oh, that. And is this information about hypermatter and hyperspace from the ICS or what?

I don't remember it going into detail about the roles, I just remember it mentioning the hypermatter cores.

There's a brief quote in the ICS talking about how the hyperdrive manipulates the complex mass of the ship to allow the jump. The correlation between RL hypermatter and SW hypermatter is mostly conjecture, but so far it checks out: Extra-dense matter.

[Darth Wong]

Not to thread hijack, but what was the deal with Alcubierre's warp anyway?

As far as I understood it, you wrap negative energy around a ship and it warps timespace around you, allowing you to pull your destination to you. Except negative energy has never been proven to exist.

Neither has imaginary mass.

Precisely: neither negative mass or imaginary mass have been observed; they are both mathematical abstractions.

This is why you are introducing not one, but TWO new phenomena in order for your "convert imaginary mass into negative mass" theory to work. One new phenomenon is necessary, unless you've got some better idea to explain hyperdrive. But two is a waste of time and unjustifiable.

PS. I don't see you ranting about wormholes the same way you rant about hyperdrives.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Precisely: neither negative mass or imaginary mass have been observed; they are both mathematical abstractions.

This is why you are introducing not one, but TWO new phenomena in order for your "convert imaginary mass into negative mass" theory to work. One new phenomenon is necessary, unless you've got some better idea to explain hyperdrive. But two is a waste of time and unjustifiable.

This has nothing to do with the negative and positive superlaser particle theory (I'm given up on that). The fact is that no matter how much or how little hypermatter there is, there is still both an imaginary mass and a real mass component. The real mass can only travel below the speed of light, the imaginary mass can only travel faster than light. If there was no real mass and only an imaginary mass, it could travel faster than light just like a tachyon unless hyperdrive doesn't work that way.

[SirNitram]

Precisely: neither negative mass or imaginary mass have been observed; they are both mathematical abstractions.

This is why you are introducing not one, but TWO new phenomena in order for your "convert imaginary mass into negative mass" theory to work. One new phenomenon is necessary, unless you've got some better idea to explain hyperdrive. But two is a waste of time and unjustifiable.

This has nothing to do with the negative and positive superlaser particle theory (I'm given up on that). The fact is that no matter how much or how little hypermatter there is, there is still both an imaginary mass and a real mass component. The real mass can only travel below the speed of light, the imaginary mass can only travel faster than light. If there was no real mass and only an imaginary mass, it could travel faster than light just like a tachyon unless hyperdrive doesn't work that way.

When was it established the excess mass is tachyonic? I missed that paper.

[Darth Wong]

This has nothing to do with the negative and positive superlaser particle theory (I'm given up on that).

Ah, so you insulted everyone for being stupid and "mentally impaired" if they didn't agree with it, and then you quietly gave up on it without admitting it was NFG?

The fact is that no matter how much or how little hypermatter there is, there is still both an imaginary mass and a real mass component.

What if they can manipulate the phase angle so that it goes to 90 degrees but the magnitude of the vector stays the same? I've been saying this since the very first post on this subject: is there some problem with your reading comprehension?

The real mass can only travel below the speed of light, the imaginary mass can only travel faster than light. If there was no real mass and only an imaginary mass, it could travel faster than light just like a tachyon unless hyperdrive doesn't work that way.

Which is precisely why I have theorized that it works the way I described. And your responses indicate that you either did not read the posts in question or lacked the mental firepower to comprehend them, since you do not attempt to refute them and instead, simply act as though the ideas were never raised in the first place.

[Ender]

CM's latest trick: Trying to disprove a fictional technology by pointing out that it can't perform an unrelated phenomenon.

Ender already pointed out that the real mass component would stay at slower than light while the imaginary mass must constantly move faster than c.

When the FUCK did I say that? I said that if you shifted over allthe mass to tachyonic stuff you would go FTL. How the hell did you make the leap to me sliptting the too apart?

[Darth Wong]

When was it established the excess mass is tachyonic? I missed that paper.

If you put >c numbers into the equations, you get imaginary numbers back. So tachyons are arguably imaginary mass (or they exist in imaginary time, or both). It is therefore assumed (which we have not aggressively contested so far) that imaginary mass must therefore be tachyonic, although I couldn't tell you whether that would actually be the case.

We're talking about some rather oddball theoretical stuff here.

[SirNitram]

When was it established the excess mass is tachyonic? I missed that paper.

If you put >c numbers into the equations, you get imaginary numbers back. So tachyons are arguably imaginary mass (or they exist in imaginary time, or both). It is therefore assumed (which we have not aggressively contested so far) that imaginary mass must therefore be tachyonic, although I couldn't tell you whether that would actually be the case.

We're talking about some rather oddball theoretical stuff here.

Agreed on the oddballness of this. I always thought something with a negative mass was a tachyon, though, since zero mass was energy(And at lightspeed). I simply know people have studied this, and complex mass is what they're calling the mass of stuff that is higher(Or lower) than it should be. The very concept a group can induce this on normal matter is strange.. But no stranger than generating 1e38J.

[Connor MacLeod]

The quote (or at least part of it) in question:

"
"Hyperdrive
Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump
to light-speed without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship."
"

[SirNitram]

The quote (or at least part of it) in question:

"
"Hyperdrive
Hyperdrives adjust faster-than-light "hypermatter" particles to allow a jump
to light-speed without changing the complex mass and energy of the ship."
"

I sit corrected.