What sort of extremes can Jedi ignore?

[Darth Hoth]

It is possible that the air did some of it; having his hands dismembered would reasonably disrupt the concentration a Jedi requires to maintain an artificial environment of breathable air.

[Havok]

This seems stupid to me. Are we really arguing that Jedi can concentrate on cooling and detoxifying air while in the midst of a half an hour duel to the death while using all their other Force abilities as well. Have any Jedi ever shown this ability? Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome. The thought that they are projecting fields and slowing down air molecules so they will be cool enough to breathe or whatever, when they are hopping around like rabbits and have no time nor idea which cubic meter of air to focus on to breathe is, frankly, retarded.

[Darth Hoth]

Connor said it earlier in this thread; I do not own The Complete Locations, so I cannot verify independently. But if it was an inherent ability, why did it cease working later on, what with the air damaging his lungs?

[PainRack]

This seems stupid to me. Are we really arguing that Jedi can concentrate on cooling and detoxifying air while in the midst of a half an hour duel to the death while using all their other Force abilities as well. Have any Jedi ever shown this ability? Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome. The thought that they are projecting fields and slowing down air molecules so they will be cool enough to breathe or whatever, when they are hopping around like rabbits and have no time nor idea which cubic meter of air to focus on to breathe is, frankly, retarded.

Force Protection.

[Ender]

This seems stupid to me. Are we really arguing that Jedi can concentrate on cooling and detoxifying air while in the midst of a half an hour duel to the death while using all their other Force abilities as well. Have any Jedi ever shown this ability? Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome. The thought that they are projecting fields and slowing down air molecules so they will be cool enough to breathe or whatever, when they are hopping around like rabbits and have no time nor idea which cubic meter of air to focus on to breathe is, frankly, retarded.

So thinking they are actively using supernatural abilities to aid their survival is retarded, but the idea that through conditioning their flesh will just naturally not be burned off in an 1800 K environment is perfectly logical? Do you also subscribe to the belief that humans naturally have metal prongs growing out of their spine?

[Havok]

This seems stupid to me. Are we really arguing that Jedi can concentrate on cooling and detoxifying air while in the midst of a half an hour duel to the death while using all their other Force abilities as well. Have any Jedi ever shown this ability? Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome. The thought that they are projecting fields and slowing down air molecules so they will be cool enough to breathe or whatever, when they are hopping around like rabbits and have no time nor idea which cubic meter of air to focus on to breathe is, frankly, retarded.

So thinking they are actively using supernatural abilities to aid their survival is retarded, but the idea that through conditioning their flesh will just naturally not be burned off in an 1800 K environment is perfectly logical?

Actively? Yes. Passively, as in a natural i.e. provided by being strong in the Force, or through decades of conditioning self defenses that are basically instinctive, and act as a general defense in all environments. Not at all. And since we SEE them within feet of the lava and their skin is NOT burning off, until Anakin is within inches of it, there does need to be some explanation, logical or not. I find passive instinctive defenses less retarded than active defenses that require concentration.

Do you also subscribe to the belief that humans naturally have metal prongs growing out of their spine?

The hell are you talking about?

[Havok]

Connor said it earlier in this thread; I do not own The Complete Locations, so I cannot verify independently. But if it was an inherent ability, why did it cease working later on, what with the air damaging his lungs?

Thanks. I must have glossed over that part of his post. I have The Complete Locations, so I will read when I get home.

[Darth Yoshi]

Do you also subscribe to the belief that humans naturally have metal prongs growing out of their spine?

The hell are you talking about?

I think he's referring to when Darkstar claimed that Vader's metal implants in ROTJ were natural.

I think it's more likely that they simply created a buffer of sorts around their mouths and noses, so that once the air actually enters their respiratory tracts, it's already cooled down to a tolerable temperature. It'd be much easier than dissipating the heat after the air has already entered the lungs.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This seems stupid to me. Are we really arguing that Jedi can concentrate on cooling and detoxifying air while in the midst of a half an hour duel to the death while using all their other Force abilities as well. Have any Jedi ever shown this ability? Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome. The thought that they are projecting fields and slowing down air molecules so they will be cool enough to breathe or whatever, when they are hopping around like rabbits and have no time nor idea which cubic meter of air to focus on to breathe is, frankly, retarded.

So thinking they are actively using supernatural abilities to aid their survival is retarded, but the idea that through conditioning their flesh will just naturally not be burned off in an 1800 K environment is perfectly logical?

Actively? Yes. Passively, as in a natural i.e. provided by being strong in the Force, or through decades of conditioning self defenses that are basically instinctive, and act as a general defense in all environments. Not at all. And since we SEE them within feet of the lava and their skin is NOT burning off, until Anakin is within inches of it, there does need to be some explanation, logical or not. I find passive instinctive defenses less retarded than active defenses that require concentration.

Do you also subscribe to the belief that humans naturally have metal prongs growing out of their spine?

The hell are you talking about?

There is no amount of conditioning a person can attain such that they will be protected from a temperature that is ~1800 degrees kelvin, and the toxic corrosive gasses that close to a lava flow for that sustained a period.

That lava had so many dissolved gasses that the second the shields on the installation went down, it destabilized and started to destroy the facility. We are not talking pepper spray. We are talking about shit that makes mustard gas look like air freshener. Hydrogen sulfide for example. In the environment they were in and the resulting concentration which would have been well over 1000 ppm, would have caused them to collapse immediately and die.

Then there is the temperature... yeah. They can withstand being in temperatures hot enough to catch their clothes on fire due to "conditioning". Bullshit.

Parsimony DEMANDS that the force be used, because there is no other option.

[Connor MacLeod]

Havokeff is baiscally just proposing what amounts to a passive absorption/retransmission "shielding" system, since we know Jedi not using the Force are basically normal people (they can be beat up, hurt, etc, like normal people.) and not superhuman (within the limits of a given species at least.) I mean if you bloody well think about it, Jedi are basically flesh and blood squishy organics. Human Jedi are born from human parents, and are mostly made of water, and so on and so forth. So there's not really much innate there (or "training") can do to improve on that short of some magical forceefield mechanism. (In effect htat posits a Jedi hs some sor tof super-man like skin-effect "Shield" providing protection, though there have to be limits to how "passive" it can be since Jedi are demonstrably not invulnerable.)

The whole point of contention seems to be whether its "active" or "passive" which seems bloody stupid to me, given that Obi-Wan pretty much clarifies tha tthe Force is instinctively applied way back in ANH. Its pretty much going to be running on automatic so long as the Jedi is touching the forcee. (and there is where the trouble lies, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Its possible for Jedi to get their concentration broken, like when Windu got his hand sliced off in ROTS.)

In any case, the heat is just parrt of it, since there's also stuff in the atmosphere itself that can be dangerous to inhale (apart from burning yourself or anything corrosive.)

[Havok]

There is no amount of conditioning a person can attain such that they will be protected from a temperature that is ~1800 degrees kelvin, and the toxic corrosive gasses that close to a lava flow for that sustained a period.

That lava had so many dissolved gasses that the second the shields on the installation went down, it destabilized and started to destroy the facility. We are not talking pepper spray. We are talking about shit that makes mustard gas look like air freshener. Hydrogen sulfide for example. In the environment they were in and the resulting concentration which would have been well over 1000 ppm, would have caused them to collapse immediately and die.

Then there is the temperature... yeah. They can withstand being in temperatures hot enough to catch their clothes on fire due to "conditioning". Bullshit.

Parsimony DEMANDS that the force be used, because there is no other option.

Rereading what I wrote in the first post on this page, I see where the confusion is. The sentence should have read;
"Doesn't it make more sense that the Jedi are just naturally, or through training, have a greater resistance to pain, toxins and physical damage because they are using the Force to shield themselves and that they both would have needed time to heel after the fight regardless of the outcome."
Or something similar to that. I apologize for that. Didn't mean to insinuate that they could physically make their bodies more resistant to fire and extreme heat. When I say "conditioning" I mean conditioning their abilities in the Force to handle more extreme conditions than normal folk, which is obviously what they do, and is what I correctly stated in my response to Ender.

My contention with the argument is as Connor stated, passive not active. As I said, the thought of them actively and consciously filtering the air of toxins and cooling it, while doing everything else they are doing, and when they aren't in the same spot for more than seconds and especially for people that need to make open sesame motions just to open doors, strikes me as retarded.

[lordofFNORD]

My contention with the argument is as Connor stated, passive not active. As I said, the thought of them actively and consciously filtering the air of toxins and cooling it, while doing everything else they are doing, and when they aren't in the same spot for more than seconds and especially for people that need to make open sesame motions just to open doors, strikes me as retarded.

Its pretty much going to be running on automatic so long as the Jedi is touching the forcee. (and there is where the trouble lies, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Its possible for Jedi to get their concentration broken, like when Windu got his hand sliced off in ROTS.)

It could be something like "muscle memory" or balance. You don't have to think about standing up or walking, but intense pain (eg from getting body parts cut off) can prevent it.

[Darth Hoth]

Depictions differ; Force techniques that are "simple" and "intuitive," such as Luke Skywalker's Force-assisted aim in the final moments of the Rebel attack on the Death Star, appear to be mostly instinctual, as do such things as increased reflexes, &c. More advanced techniques, such as the more difficult variants of tele- or psychokinesis, as well as healing, scrying and most other "specialised" disciplines, tend to require greater concentration and active effort on part of the user. As for the "shielding" the two employed on Mustafar, it could be either.