Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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article wrote: Working on a shoestring budget, researchers have found no reason why a low-cost approach to nuclear fusion won't work.

President-elect Barack Obama's pick for energy secretary has said he's aware of the approach, known as inertial electrostatic confinement fusion or Polywell fusion - and although it's probably not on his radar screen right now, it just might show up in the future.

For decades, scientists have been trying to figure out how to harness the power of the nuclear reaction that sets the sun ablaze. Fusion involves smashing the nuclei of lighter elements together to produce heavier elements, plus an excess burst of energy. The sun turns hydrogen into helium. Thermonuclear bombs do something similar with different isotopes of hydrogen.

The mainstream approaches to commercial fusion would involve heating up plasma inside a doughnut-shaped magnetic bottle known as a tokamak, or using lasers to blast tiny bits of deuterium and tritium. The former approach is being followed for the $13 billion international ITER project, and the latter would be used by multibillion-dollar experiments such as the National Ignition Facility in the U.S. or HiPER in Britain.

Then there's the $1.8 million (yes, million) project that's just been wrapped up at EMC2 Fusion Development Corp. in Santa Fe, N.M. The experiment, funded by the U.S. Navy, was aimed at verifying some interesting results that the late physicist Robert Bussard coaxed out of a high-voltage inertial electrostatic contraption known as WB-6. (The "WB" stands for Wiffle Ball, which describes the shape of the device and its magnetic field.)

An EMC2 team headed by Los Alamos researcher Richard Nebel (who's on leave from his federal lab job) picked up the baton from Bussard and tried to duplicate the results. The team has turned in its final report, and it's been double-checked by a peer-review panel, Nebel told me today. Although he couldn't go into the details, he said the verdict was positive.

"There's nothing in there that suggests this will not work," Nebel said. "That's a very different statement from saying that it will work."

By and large, the EMC2 results fit Bussard's theoretical predictions, Nebel said. That could mean Polywell fusion would actually lead to a power-generating reaction. But based on the 10-month, shoestring-budget experiment, the team can't rule out the possibility that a different phenomenon is causing the observed effects.

"If you want to say something absolutely, you have to say there's no other explanation," Nebel said. The review board agreed with that conservative assessment, he said.

The good news, from Nebel's standpoint, is that the WB-7 experiment hasn't ruled out the possibility that Polywell fusion could actually serve as a low-cost, long-term energy solution. "If this thing was absolutely dead in the water, we would have found out," he said.

If Polywell pans out, nuclear fusion could be done more cheaply and more safely than it could ever be done in a tokamak or a laser blaster. The process might be able to produce power without throwing off loads of radioactive byproducts. It might even use helium-3 mined from the moon. "We don't want to oversell this," Nebel said, "but this is pretty interesting stuff, and if it works, it's huge."

The idea is still way out of the mainstream, however. In his new book about the frustrating fusion quest, "Sun in a Bottle," Charles Seife says that WB-7 and similar contraptions, known generically as fusors, aren't good candidates for power-generating fusion - even though they've attracted "something of a cult following."

"The equations of plasma physics strongly imply that fusorlike devices are very unlikely ever to produce more energy than they consume," Seife writes. "Nature's inexorable energy-draining powers are too hard to overcome."

Nebel is well aware of the naysayers. In fact, that's one reason why he's being so circumspect about the results of the WB-7 experiment. When I mentioned that he'd probably like to avoid the kind of controversy and embarrassment that came in the wake of 1989's notorious cold-fusion claims, Nebel laughed and added, "That's well-put."

Despite the skepticism, Nebel and his colleagues have already drawn up a plan for the next step: an 18-month program to build and test a larger fusor prototype. "We're shopping that around inside the DOD [Department of Defense], and we'll see what happens," he said.

Nebel said some private-sector ventures are also interested in what EMC2 is up to, and that may suggest a backup plan in case the Pentagon isn't interesting in following up on WB-7.

For the time being, Nebel said his five-person team is getting by on some small-scale contracts from the Defense Department (including these three). "I've got enough to cover the people we've got, and that's about it," he said. "What we're doing with these contracts is trying to get prepared for the next step."

He's also waiting to see what the Obama administration will bring. Will the White House support EMC2's low-cost, under-the-radar fusion research program alongside ITER and the National Ignition Facility? "We just don't know," Nebel said.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 18741.aspx

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted already, there's one guy on this forum with a link to the Polywell site that led me to the reactor design a year or two ago
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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I find this very interesting. If it turns out to be true and this thing can generate more power than it consumes then functional fusion reactors may be not too far away.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

Post by Starglider »

In other fusion news, construction has finally started on the ITER reactor complex, after only oh a decade or so of idiotic political wrangling (and that's after the design had been finalised).

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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Although he couldn't go into the details, he said the verdict was positive.

"There's nothing in there that suggests this will not work," Nebel said. "That's a very different statement from saying that it will work."
The article contradicted itself. That's not a positive verdict; he's saying something like, "the underlying physics is sound, and the engineering is within the realm of possibility. One could quite easily make the same statement about the tokamak.
The process might be able to produce power without throwing off loads of radioactive byproducts.
Not likely. A heavy neutron flux is the natural byproduct of hydrogen fusion.
Starglider wrote:In other fusion news, construction has finally started on the ITER reactor complex, after only oh a decade or so of idiotic political wrangling (and that's after the design had been finalised).
Took a long e-fucking-nough time. We shouldn't have to waste time with political wrangling; my current sentiment is to hand nuclear fusion over to the military to develop as fast as possible, like the Manhattan Project. That way you completely avoid all of this negotiation bullshit.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Wow, I didn't know Bussard had died. Over a year ago too.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Surlethe wrote:
The process might be able to produce power without throwing off loads of radioactive byproducts.
Not likely. A heavy neutron flux is the natural byproduct of hydrogen fusion.
I'm pretty sure that line is referring to Bussard's claim that Polywell is efficient enough to enable practical aneutronic (boron) fusion. Of course the reactor size would have to be larger than that of a DT reactor of the same power output.
Surlethe wrote:We shouldn't have to waste time with political wrangling; my current sentiment is to hand nuclear fusion over to the military to develop as fast as possible, like the Manhattan Project. That way you completely avoid all of this negotiation bullshit.
ITER is projected to cost 5 billion euros, assuming no nasty surprises or cost overruns. No individual European military could afford that and the track record on international military co-operation is even worse than for civil projects. The only military that could is the US DoD, which runs into three problems; budgets are likely to shrink even as US military hardware needs large-scale replacement, the DoE has juridistiction over all nuclear research, and the US already has a major investment into inertial-laser fusion (e.g. the NIF).
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

Post by Zixinus »

Wow. Passing peer-review is a mayor step in the right direction, even if this might be a step in the wrong direction.

Oh and.... I've told you so! I'VE TOLD YOU ALL!

Sorry, I had to say that.
I find this very interesting. If it turns out to be true and this thing can generate more power than it consumes then functional fusion reactors may be not too far away.
That might have been me. This might be a good time to look back over the polywell forums but meh. I can't be bothered and I wasn't contributing anything really meaningful anyway. A google search will look up something sooner or later.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Isn't electrostatic confinement impossible by the laplace equation?
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Feil wrote:Isn't electrostatic confinement impossible by the laplace equation?
Static electrostatic confinement is impossible. If the fields are allowed to be dynamic, it can confine.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Feil wrote:Isn't electrostatic confinement impossible by the laplace equation?
Polywell doesn't use electrostatic confinement as such, it uses a series of magnetic mirrors in a pseudospherical arrangement to confine a cloud of electrons, which then attract and hence accelerate the ions.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Surlethe wrote: Not likely. A heavy neutron flux is the natural byproduct of hydrogen fusion.
As I recall, Dr. Bussard was recommending proton-boron fusion, which produces no neutrons.

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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Starglider wrote:I'm pretty sure that line is referring to Bussard's claim that Polywell is efficient enough to enable practical aneutronic (boron) fusion. Of course the reactor size would have to be larger than that of a DT reactor of the same power output.
Really? I did not know that. (By the way, thanks, Dave, for the link.) My sources note that an HB fusion reaction only gives off 8.7 MeV, while a DT gives off 17.4 MeV. So an HB reactor would have to be 'twice as large'.
Surlethe wrote:We shouldn't have to waste time with political wrangling; my current sentiment is to hand nuclear fusion over to the military to develop as fast as possible, like the Manhattan Project. That way you completely avoid all of this negotiation bullshit.
ITER is projected to cost 5 billion euros, assuming no nasty surprises or cost overruns. No individual European military could afford that and the track record on international military co-operation is even worse than for civil projects. The only military that could is the US DoD, which runs into three problems; budgets are likely to shrink even as US military hardware needs large-scale replacement, the DoE has juridistiction over all nuclear research, and the US already has a major investment into inertial-laser fusion (e.g. the NIF).
$8 billion is enough that the US military budget can absorb it. The problems are practical, as you point out; I just don't know of any other organization that has the organizational capabilities and budget to really launch into a breakneck, no-holds-barred effort to get some form of fusion to work.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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My sources note that an HB fusion reaction only gives off 8.7 MeV, while a DT gives off 17.4 MeV. So an HB reactor would have to be 'twice as large'.
Actually, there is one point you miss:

D-T gives energy in the form of neutrons, thus heat that you have to convert into energy trough some kind of heat cycle. About 30-40% of the reactor output is turned into usable electricity (some of which would go back to the Polywell).

H-B gives energy in the form of charged Helium particles that could be slown down by electromagnetic deceleration, thus cutting out the many middle-men that comes with a heat cycles. This form is much more efficient because of that.

D-T also will require far more neutron shielding than H-B does (H-B does produce SOME neutrons).

So, H-B based reactor might be actually smaller due to the fact that it will not require turbines and generator.

That said, the reactor and vacuum chamber will be larger than would be required for a breakeven D-T structure.
$8 billion is enough that the US military budget can absorb it. The problems are practical, as you point out; I just don't know of any other organization that has the organizational capabilities and budget to really launch into a breakneck, no-holds-barred effort to get some form of fusion to work.
ITER, while capable theoretically capable of producing break even, has no military potential. It's simply far too large. The reason why the Navy is/was interested in Polywell is that it could replace existing fission reactors, possibly with smaller ones that you could put into smaller vessels.

The main purpose of ITER is plasma research, which is where the Tokamak designs excelled at.

The main charm in Polywell is its cheapness (you could theoretically run the thing with copper instead of superconductors) and (theoretically) relatively small size. You could plug this in into an existing oil/coal power plant and possibly some Navy ships.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Surlethe wrote:My sources note that an HB fusion reaction only gives off 8.7 MeV, while a DT gives off 17.4 MeV. So an HB reactor would have to be 'twice as large'.
It's much more complicated than that. The HB reaction has a peak cross section (reaction rate) of only a third of the DT reaction at the same pressure, and that's at ten times the ion energy (temperature). Ions moving an order of magnitude faster are much harder to confine and radiate energy away quicker. Energy-positive HB fusion is basically impossible with mainstream confinement techniques (magnetic and laser-inertial - the most optimistic studies still show three orders of magnitude less power density than DT) and only the optimistic and frankly untested claims about how well Polywell scales with size make it seem viable at all.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Surlethe wrote:
Starglider wrote:I'm pretty sure that line is referring to Bussard's claim that Polywell is efficient enough to enable practical aneutronic (boron) fusion. Of course the reactor size would have to be larger than that of a DT reactor of the same power output.
Really? I did not know that. (By the way, thanks, Dave, for the link.) My sources note that an HB fusion reaction only gives off 8.7 MeV, while a DT gives off 17.4 MeV. So an HB reactor would have to be 'twice as large'.
The polywell design scales by a factor of 7 however.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Ender wrote:The polywell design scales by a factor of 7 however.
The relevant (paraphrased) quote is;
Bussard claimed that, assuming superconductors are used for the coils, the only significant energy loss channel is through electron losses proportional to the surface area. He also claimed that the density would scale with the square of the field (constant beta conditions), and the maximum attainable magnetic field would scale with the radius (technological constraints). Under those assumptions, the fusion power produced would scale with the seventh power of the radius, and the energy gain would scale with the fifth power.
However as I understand it this model is highly optimistic even compared to typical glowing fusion research projections (no pun intended...).
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Ok, so in Dr. Bussard's presentation to Google in 2005, he claimed (IIRC) single stage to low earth orbit for $25/kg. How, exactly, would this work? Is he planning on spraying ions out the back end or what?
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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He had plans for a Polywell-based rocket engine, I think using charged particles to heat water. That's for the low-impulse, high-thrust version. You can do it with D-T too, using neutrons to heat the water, I think.

I have the papers somewhere on my computer, I can put it on Megaupload or something if you ask.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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So it'd be a steam powered rocket ship? Why not use LH2 like traditional designs such as NERVA?
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Zixinus wrote:He had plans for a Polywell-based rocket engine, I think using charged particles to heat water. That's for the low-impulse, high-thrust version. You can do it with D-T too, using neutrons to heat the water, I think.

I have the papers somewhere on my computer, I can put it on Megaupload or something if you ask.
ARe the papers on the arXiv.org archives?
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:So it'd be a steam powered rocket ship? Why not use LH2 like traditional designs such as NERVA?
Possibly because the thermal stress challenges would be even more formidable with a cryogenic propellant, plus there's the handling difficulties and explosion risk?
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Since everyone so politely asked here are the papers I have on my HDD.

The papers are called Quiet Electric Discharge (I think there might be some level of irony there, somewhere).

Links:

Paper one: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4WX5PC8W
Two: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OAXXES3Q
Three: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9F2VDEOA

I'm not sure which is which, as I didn't quite read them and when I did, it was a long time ago.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Starglider wrote:
Possibly because the thermal stress challenges would be even more formidable with a cryogenic propellant, plus there's the handling difficulties and explosion risk?
Actually, looking over the concepts now, it would depend on your engine's mission profile. You get a higher Isp from hydrogen, but better thrust from water. Ammonia is another option, and least that doesn't have the issues of being voluminous and super explosive like hydrogen.

I prefer the idea of being able to say "steam powered rocket ship" anyway. Ah, steampunk...
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Starglider wrote:
Possibly because the thermal stress challenges would be even more formidable with a cryogenic propellant, plus there's the handling difficulties and explosion risk?
Actually, looking over the concepts now, it would depend on your engine's mission profile. You get a higher Isp from hydrogen, but better thrust from water. Ammonia is another option, and least that doesn't have the issues of being voluminous and super explosive like hydrogen.

I prefer the idea of being able to say "steam powered rocket ship" anyway. Ah, steampunk...
Water disassociates into oxygen which will corrode your engine bell. Rather large negative there.
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Re: Polywell Fusion Reactor passes peer review

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Ender wrote: Water disassociates into oxygen which will corrode your engine bell. Rather large negative there.
That is one factor I'd consider making ammonia a more preferable option over the other two.
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