George Bush Pushes Midnight MalRegulations in final days

[Alyeska]

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That Grizzly bear was killed near Lincoln Montana. Identical geography to Glacier Park (except no Glaciers in the high mountains).

Original picture location, credit due to UDAP website.

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A lucky man with only a minor mauling by a Grizzly.

And your telling me that those who wish to defend themselves against such animals are paranoid?

[Broomstick]

This would merely beg the question of why I'd want to go to a park where there's a decent chance I'll get mauled for minding my own business.

No one is forced to go to these parks.

Actually, I wish more of the yahoos had your attitude. Then they'd stay out of the parks, too. These are wilderness areas, they aren't safe, they're wild.

[Alyeska]

Just to reinforce what nature is all about.

Frances Frost, 30, female January 2, 2001 This Canmore, Alberta resident was killed by a cougar while skiing on Cascade Fire Road just north of Banff National Park in Alberta

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Killed while skiing (probably cross country) in the middle of the winter.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Frankly, bears dont hunt people (well, Polar Bears might) and dont usually attack people unless that person does something stupid like surprise the bear, or improperly handle food. That being said, as broomstick said, these are not safe places. Nature is not safe, and to be perfectly blunt we enter those areas at our own risk. We have wiped out bears and most other predators everywhere but these places, and as far as I am concerned some idiot getting mauled due to their own stupidity is just fine.

The cost of a hundred bears being shot by jumpy tourists per anum is a price not justified by the cost of saving maybe 2 people a year. Out population can sustain 2 per year (I would prefer it if we decreased the surplus population anyway. Call me Ebenezer...) but the bear population cannot sustain 100.

Sorry but the scanvengers prey on ranchers shit. You may not eat meant, IDK, but I do along with others and we like our eggs and chickens and beef. Want to change that; good luck...I've eaten Coyote, not good meat. So in the scheme of things, they're fucked.

That does not give them the right to wipe out predators. Especially not in protected areas. Nor are these animals killed for those reasons throughout most of the US. Wolves in AZ were hunted to extirpation not due to ranching, but to artificially increase elk populations for hunters. Hell, throughout most of the US, the ranchers LEASE the land they use from the feds. They dont own it, and are poaching, killing the predators illegally.

I do eat meat, but you know what, I am fine with the prices going up a little bit because the rancher has to raise them to make up for the minuscule losses from predation, or the increased cost of training an angry llama or a few sheep dogs.

You want to know how often a wolf pack eats something as large as an adult cow? Almost never. And coyote are scavengers. They take out the sick and injured sheep and can be deterred by a big shaggy dog.

At the end of the day though, entire ecosystems break down because we fuck with predators populations. The reason we HAVE to hunt ungulates to maintain healthy watersheds is because we have wiped out predators and introduced non-native plants.

In the end you pathetic apologism for the rape of the natural world doesnt hold much water.

At what point do we see them as noble creatures? In survival school, we ate them...yummie and yuckie all at the same time; yet I was hungry.

Eating an animal when you have nothing else is one thing, hunting them for the purpose of driving them to extinction is another matter.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ghetto edit: If most of the fatalities are due to reckless and idiotic driving, use photo enforcement and slap very very prohibitive fines on violators. We are talking in the Thousands of Dollars range. Problem solved. Post a nice big sign warning people that speeding and offroading carries stiff fines and the possibility of time in a federal prison. They will drive nice then.

Of course that only applies to national parks and not state and federal trust land.

[Mr Bean]

Frankly, bears dont hunt people (well, Polar Bears might)

Polar bears do, and unlike Sharks it seems they like the taste of people just fine. Or at least according to a few NG stories I've read and a quick google search gave me half a dozen blog level notes. I don't have hard science on this or any study to point to but I've been hearing it for years now that Polar bears are the only bears and one of the few animals period that will actively hunt humans. It's been noted that animals like Tiger's avoid humans until such time as they kill one and then begin actively hunting humans as an additional food source. And we all know sharks almost never eat even if they do kill Human's (Exceptions, feeding frenzies and the like) they might take a leg but they don't come back to eat the rest of you.

Meanwhile Polar bears(According to what I've read) don't prefer us to Seals, but they will attack and eat humans if hungry enough and will finish us off, unlike Brown or Grizzly bears who will simply kill us if provoked.

*Edit, let me say that jail time is not going to stop offroaders, even large fines, why? They figure they can beat it in court. Automatic impounding works wonders however in NC, if you went muding in one of the national parks in North Carolina where I spent part of my youth the Park Rangers were kind enough to inform us that along with a large find they also seized you car/jeep/truck and sold it. The Park got the money from the sale, the state got the fine money. So they were active in hunting down such people.

[Alyrium Denryle]

*Edit, let me say that jail time is not going to stop offroaders, even large fines, why? They figure they can beat it in court. Automatic impounding works wonders however in NC, if you went muding in one of the national parks in North Carolina where I spent part of my youth the Park Rangers were kind enough to inform us that along with a large find they also seized you car/jeep/truck and sold it. The Park got the money from the sale, the state got the fine money. So they were active in hunting down such people.

I approve of this idea, and it should be implemented

Meanwhile Polar bears(According to what I've read) don't prefer us to Seals, but they will attack and eat humans if hungry enough and will finish us off, unlike Brown or Grizzly bears who will simply kill us if provoked.

Yeah this is pretty much what I am operating on as well. Polar bears are different from most other bears because they are strict carnivores. A grizzly or brown bear is an omnivore. They are happy grazing on berries most of the time, but take an opportunity to eat carrion, or a sick/injured ungulate when they can, and gorge themselves on available fish. Humans get attacked because they dont store food properly, then (or separately) startle or hurt the bear. That is a bad idea

Polar bears are out looking for tasty mammal flesh to consume, and will take humans if hungry enough. And with the ice-caps going the way of the great Auk, they will be getting mighty hungry.

[Alyeska]

Frankly, bears dont hunt people (well, Polar Bears might) and dont usually attack people unless that person does something stupid like surprise the bear, or improperly handle food. That being said, as broomstick said, these are not safe places. Nature is not safe, and to be perfectly blunt we enter those areas at our own risk. We have wiped out bears and most other predators everywhere but these places, and as far as I am concerned some idiot getting mauled due to their own stupidity is just fine.

The cost of a hundred bears being shot by jumpy tourists per anum is a price not justified by the cost of saving maybe 2 people a year. Out population can sustain 2 per year (I would prefer it if we decreased the surplus population anyway. Call me Ebenezer...) but the bear population cannot sustain 100.

The bear popular in Montana is quite healthy. We have a large amount of land outside of Glacier Park and the Grizzly population is doing quite well thank you very much. The people who carry are not jumping at the chance to shoot at anything that moves. If that were the case, we would have dead bears all the time outside of the park. Park authority already makes a point of trying to prevent bear encounters and they will close entire sections of the park down when bear activity increases.

Try getting your facts straight before jumping down an issue AD.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The bear popular in Montana is quite healthy. We have a large amount of land outside of Glacier Park and the Grizzly population is doing quite well thank you very much. The people who carry are not jumping at the chance to shoot at anything that moves. If that were the case, we would have dead bears all the time outside of the park. Park authority already makes a point of trying to prevent bear encounters and they will close entire sections of the park down when bear activity increases.

Try getting your facts straight before jumping down an issue AD.

Try not shifting goal posts. I am referring to Yosimite populations and dont know the mortality rates in Glacier or the population dynamics (age structure and the like) If I did I could run the calculations and determine whether the population will stay healthy myself. What? You think I am stupid enough to make sweeping statements about every bear population? I am guilty perhaps of assuming you understood that I was referring to bears within Yosimite which are where the numbers I use come from.

Montana is IIRC the only state other than alaska which has large brown bear populations outside of national parks. Do you happen to know if the population is managed by state fish and game? Because depending on whether or not their management plan takes into account road kills, jumpy tourists, accidental poisoning etc, the population may not stay healthy for long.

[Erik von Nein]

Aly: Here's a link to Montana's monitoring program for bears - http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/tande/monitoring.html

[Alyeska]

The bear popular in Montana is quite healthy. We have a large amount of land outside of Glacier Park and the Grizzly population is doing quite well thank you very much. The people who carry are not jumping at the chance to shoot at anything that moves. If that were the case, we would have dead bears all the time outside of the park. Park authority already makes a point of trying to prevent bear encounters and they will close entire sections of the park down when bear activity increases.

Try getting your facts straight before jumping down an issue AD.

Try not shifting goal posts. I am referring to Yosimite populations and dont know the mortality rates in Glacier or the population dynamics (age structure and the like) If I did I could run the calculations and determine whether the population will stay healthy myself. What? You think I am stupid enough to make sweeping statements about every bear population? I am guilty perhaps of assuming you understood that I was referring to bears within Yosimite which are where the numbers I use come from.

Montana is IIRC the only state other than alaska which has large brown bear populations outside of national parks. Do you happen to know if the population is managed by state fish and game? Because depending on whether or not their management plan takes into account road kills, jumpy tourists, accidental poisoning etc, the population may not stay healthy for long.

Guess what, the rule your sneering at allows the state to determine the issue. Concealed carry if the state allows it. California is a "May Issue" state with the majority population under departments that rarely issue. Some states ban concealed carry in practical terms.

Grizzly bears are managed and may not be shot for any reason except self defense. Very few Grizzly's are killed at all. The last one I heard about was that one that got hit by a truck in Lincoln.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Grizzly bears are managed and may not be shot for any reason except self defense. Very few Grizzly's are killed at all. The last one I heard about was that one that got hit by a truck in Lincoln.

Then there is no problem in the Montana population. Other populations are managed differently, and not as well.