Cerebrate keeps spawning, despite Overlord shortage

[Mr. Coffee]

I dunno, Servo, after 17 it was probably like slinging a hotdog and a cup of yogurt down a fucking hallway.

[Oskuro]

Ok, maybe I'm an insensitive prick, but can't help but think of the following quote:

You guys are horribly insensitive, know that? You're mising the big picture. If stupid people stopped making stupid babies, what would we sell on the black market?

Linky

[Kanastrous]

I dunno, Servo, after 17 it was probably like slinging a hotdog and a cup of yogurt down a fucking hallway.

Bastard.

I'm wiping coffee off my monitor.

[Chardok]

RISE FROM YOU GRAVE.....


from HERE

#18 signed, sealed, and delivered. - Please, someone stop this insanity, NOW.

ROGERS, Ark. – An Arkansas woman has given birth to her 18th child. Michelle Duggar delivered the baby girl by Caesarean section Thursday at Mercy Medical Center in Rogers. The baby, named Jordyn-Grace Makiya Duggar, weighed 7 pounds, 3 ounces and was 20 inches long.

"The ultimate Christmas gift from God," said Jim Bob Duggar, the father of the 18 children. "She's just absolutely beautiful, like her mom and her sisters."

The Duggars now have 10 sons and eight daughters.

Jim Bob Duggar said Michelle started having contractions Wednesday night. She needed the C-section, her third, because the baby was lying sideways. Jim Bob said both baby and mother were doing well Thursday night.

"We both would love to have more," he said.

The cable network TLC broadcasts a weekly show about the Duggars, called "17 Kids and Counting." Chris Finnegan of TLC — which handles public relations for the Duggar family — said the show's name would be updated to account for the latest addition to the family. He said TLC also will air a show Monday on the baby's delivery.

Jim Bob Duggar is 43, a year older than his wife. Their oldest child, Joshua, is 20.

The other Duggar children, in between Joshua and Jordyn-Grace, are Jana, 18; John-David, 18; Jill, 17; Jessa, 16; Jinger, 14; Joseph, 13; Josiah, 12; Joy-Anna, 11; Jeremiah, 9; Jedidiah, 9; Jason, 8; James, 7; Justin, 6; Jackson, 4; Johannah, 3; and Jennifer, 1.

"Our whole family is excited about Jordyn's addition to our family," Jim Bob Duggar said. "She's just perfect in every way."

(This version CORRECTS the name of the Duggars' TLC show to '17 Kids and Counting,' not 'Seventeen and Counting.'))

[KrauserKrauser]

I cannot watch this show with my girlfriend. She has a wierd fascination with it, it just makes me say innapropriate things about their sexuality and mental state. She has to watch it when I'm not around because I ruin the experience.

They had an episode where the Duggars went to a Creation Science Museum. It would have been comedy gold if not for the fact that these kids believe in this shit 100% with statements like "Humans and Dinosaurs definitely lived together" and "The Earth is definitely only 6000 years old" along with this gem "Evolution doesn't really make sense, Creation definitely makes more sense, I mean, look at the science." Coming from their 6-17 year old kids, that just makes me sad.

What's worse is when my girlfriend reminded me that Sarah Palin also supports Creationism, which made me groan even more.

Then the oldest, Josh, proposed to his girlfriend of I think less than a year and they were so happy!!!! Except for the fact that they are saving their first kiss for their wedding day and all they can do is hold hands and never be alone together. That's right, engaged and still need a chaperone at all times. Watching them sit in a car with another person there staring into each other's eyes and constantly saying "I love you honey" made me want to retch. Just go ahead and fuck already, you are already disobeying a vast number of biblical tennets, why not that one?

[Broomstick]

What really bugs me about this is that the longer these people keep shitting out kids, the more likely birth defects are. Forty one is too old to be having kids, IMO, and greatly increases the likelihood of defects such as Downs Syndrome, among others.

Right, because women should be forcibly sterilized at 35 to prevent such things [/sarcasm]

The problem isn’t so much advancing age as that if a child is diagnosed pre-birth with severe defects she’ll insist on carrying it to term regardless of any consequences. I don’t think we should automatically abort because of a birth defect (admittedly, being married to someone with a birth defect does color my opinion) but that option should be on the table. There are, after all, things MUCH worse than Downs Syndrome out there.

Even if the eldest few children are working instead of being in school, how can they possibly afford to keep multiplying?

I wonder what the father does that allows him to support this. The obvious answer would be a high level position at Wal-Mart seeing how that's the economic engine in that part of the state.

Well, clearly some of their ability to raise a small army can be attributed to a budget, buying bulk, and the ease of handing down clothes from one child to another.

Another factor is idiots who give them free stuff as they gush about how wonderful this family is. Of course, if the Duggers were non-white and non-Christian they’d be roundly condemned for having so many children, but being Jeebus followers and lily-complected it’s all OK

Then the oldest, Josh, proposed to his girlfriend of I think less than a year and they were so happy!!!! Except for the fact that they are saving their first kiss for their wedding day and all they can do is hold hands and never be alone together. That's right, engaged and still need a chaperone at all times. Watching them sit in a car with another person there staring into each other's eyes and constantly saying "I love you honey" made me want to retch. Just go ahead and fuck already, you are already disobeying a vast number of biblical tennets, why not that one?

I realize the concept is mind-blowing but that sort of “courting” used to be the standard, even in North America. Granted, that was some time ago (about 100 to 150 years) but historically it’s nothing special. In fact, in many parts of the world today newlyweds don’t even have that much contact. What’s weird is that it’s not mainstream America.

Frankly, though, I wonder how much more this woman’s uterus can take. She’s had children, what, about every 9-10 months? 3 C-sections? I’m surprised the delivering doc hasn’t taken pity on the poor organ, put it out of its misery, and removed it yet..

The frightening thing is that menopause may not hit until her 50’s. I believe the oldest unassisted reproduction birth was to a 56 year old woman. This woman could be chucking out babies for another decade unless the Invisible Sky Pixie strikes down her generative organs.

[Pelranius]

Well, some of the older kids could support the family by getting jobs of their own. A extra few thousand can go a long way when you're buying in bulk.

I do wonder what will happen once one of the kids goes of and adapts to the real world. With at least 18 kids, someone is bound to adapt some sense sooner or later.

[Guardsman Bass]

I wonder - with that many kids so close in age, are they actually starting to get a slight economic benefit from it right now? Four of those kids plus the 20-year-old are 16 and over; even if they only worked part-time jobs, that would probably amount to a decent chunk of income (although I doubt they need it, if they own a 7,000 square foot house).

EDIT: Crap! Pelranius beat me to the punch.

[The Romulan Republic]

Seems a lot of wild claims have been tossed around here, like inbreeding (perhaps a joke), and, for that matter, fundimentalist. Yes, the family talks about God. Yes, given the homeschool they're likely fundis. But is their anything in that article that clearly demonstrates they are more fundimentalist than the average Christian?

(Yes, I read the post about how the went to the Creation "Science" museum and believed it all, but that was after a series of unsubstantiated assumptions that they were fundimentalist).

And weemadando: Fuck off. Yes, these kids deserve to die of preventable diseases because their mom had too many of them.

[Edi]

Seems a lot of wild claims have been tossed around here, like inbreeding (perhaps a joke), and, for that matter, fundimentalist. Yes, the family talks about God. Yes, given the homeschool they're likely fundis. But is their anything in that article that clearly demonstrates they are more fundimentalist than the average Christian?

(Yes, I read the post about how the went to the Creation "Science" museum and believed it all, but that was after a series of unsubstantiated assumptions that they were fundimentalist).

And weemadando: Fuck off. Yes, these kids deserve to die of preventable diseases because their mom had too many of them.

Get off that high horse. Any time you have a family in the US or other western country that has kids in the double digit numbers, they are 95% certain to be religious fundamentalists of one stripe or another. The US far more religious and religiously fundamentalist than any other country in the West. When you then add home schooling into it, that's an even stronger indication. So the assumption that they are fundamentalists was more than justified.

The inbreeding comment is rather obviously the sort of common derision toward religious fundamentalists that appears here. The only thing out of line is if Ando wishes them death, but the fact remains that if they do catch something contagious, it's likely going to hit them all if they are not vaccinated. How many it would kill and what it would do otherwise is up for question.

But you can stop screeching right now.

[The Romulan Republic]

Get off that high horse. Any time you have a family in the US or other western country that has kids in the double digit numbers, they are 95% certain to be religious fundamentalists of one stripe or another.

Probably true. I wouldn't know the statistics, but I'm not going to argue it.

However, I was merely pointing out that people were making claims without evidence. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sometimes seems to me that demands for evidence are sometimes lower when it comes to topics like bashing religious people.

The US far more religious and religiously fundamentalist than any other country in the West. When you then add home schooling into it, that's an even stronger indication. So the assumption that they are fundamentalists was more than justified.

I am fully aware of how much of the US is dominated by fundimentalism. However, regarding homeschooling, I was homeschooled for part or all of Grades 1, 2, 4, and 7, for non-religious reasons. Perhaps I'm the exception to the norm, but I don't consider homeschooling, in and of itself, to be evidence of fundimentalism.

Combined with the rest though, its not too unreasonable an assumption I'll concede.

The inbreeding comment is rather obviously the sort of common derision toward religious fundamentalists that appears here. The only thing out of line is if Ando wishes them death, but the fact remains that if they do catch something contagious, it's likely going to hit them all if they are not vaccinated. How many it would kill and what it would do otherwise is up for question.

No doubt, though of course their's no reason to assume that these kids won't be vaccinated.

But you can stop screeching right now.

I would hardly call it screeching. But I'm probably making to big an issue out of it, so I'll drop it now.

[Kitsune]

It may have already been asked but will ask here.....

Saw the other day a public ad campaign that you should get your children vaccinated?

Where does it come from that you should not vaccinate your children?

[The Romulan Republic]

It may have already been asked but will ask here.....

Saw the other day a public ad campaign that you should get your children vaccinated?

Where does it come from that you should not vaccinate your children?

Don't some religions have no vaccination rules?

Plus their's the secular fear of medical side-effects.

[Edi]

It may have already been asked but will ask here.....

Saw the other day a public ad campaign that you should get your children vaccinated?

Where does it come from that you should not vaccinate your children?

Mostly from morons who think they know better than medical professionals and believe conspiracy theory bullshit. Else religious objections. Unless there is a legitimate medical reason not to take a vaccine for the basic stuff, it should be done.

I have a friend who nearly lost one child due to an allergic reaction to a vaccine and it was a near thing and another got a severe reaction, so with that kind of family history, there are actually legitimate grounds to be suspicious or even outright refuse. But most of the anti-vaccine crowd? No excuse.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

Where does it come from that you should not vaccinate your children?

There have been a bunch of 'studies' that establish links between vaccination and things like autism. They've pretty much been universally discredited (the British doctor responsible for one of the more recent ones is actually facing criminal charges for falsifying his results and thus threatening the health and safety of the nation, IIRC), but as always seems to be the case, the study linking vaccination and whichever condition is in vogue for that moment gets truckloads of media attention, and the multiple studies showing that it's bullshit get none. People therefore assume that those anti-vaccination studies are right because they're to lazy to do their own research and let the media do their thinking for them.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I am fully aware of how much of the US is dominated by fundimentalism. However, regarding homeschooling, I was homeschooled for part or all of Grades 1, 2, 4, and 7, for non-religious reasons. Perhaps I'm the exception to the norm, but I don't consider homeschooling, in and of itself, to be evidence of fundimentalism.

Combined with the rest though, its not too unreasonable an assumption I'll concede.

To add just a little bit more, they went to the fucking creation museum. You know, that place that needs to be vaporized by an asteroid.

[Coyote]

The anti-vaccination movement picked up steam with two events: the idea that most of the disease we vaccinate against have been "beaten", and that the vaccines cause autism.

The reason they think the diseases are beaten is because we vaccinate, hence we don't see the diseases much any more, hence there's no need to vaccine, basically-- a sort of 'victim of one's own success' type thing. The autism thing has been floating around for a bit, but there was a recent death of a little girl who had a bunch of vaccines given to her and she had some sort of allergic reaction to one of them and something happened-- I don't remember if she died or did, in fact, become autistic... it's an endless spool of anecdotal tales about people who know someone who's best friend's cousin's college roommate had a kid that 'went autistic' after a vaccine.

I remember in Israel there was a social program (I think run by volunteers) who helped kids raised in fundamentalist Jewish households make transition to secular life. It's like the Duggars situation writ large, there-- whole communities popping out dozens or more bratlings, but sooner or later, some of those family members are going to bolt. They have a hell of a time adjusting, sometimes...

Does DEATH or any of the other Israelis watching this subject have a line on this? I think it was in the Jerusalem Report or a supplement in Ha'aretz a few years back... I'd be curious to know what th epercentage is of kids who grow up to leave fundy households, and if it corresponds to any data in the US...

[Kodiak]

I remember in Israel there was a social program (I think run by volunteers) who helped kids raised in fundamentalist Jewish households make transition to secular life. It's like the Duggars situation writ large, there-- whole communities popping out dozens or more bratlings, but sooner or later, some of those family members are going to bolt. They have a hell of a time adjusting, sometimes...

Does DEATH or any of the other Israelis watching this subject have a line on this? I think it was in the Jerusalem Report or a supplement in Ha'aretz a few years back... I'd be curious to know what th epercentage is of kids who grow up to leave fundy households, and if it corresponds to any data in the US...

They have a similar program in Utah for the "Lost Boys", young men who are forced out of the fundy-polygamist compounds for disagreeing with their father or wanting to learn something besides the Bible. It's hard for them to adjust since the only work they can find is typically manual labor (the result of being home-schooled WITHOUT getting a GED) and they often fall into alcoholism.

[Ekiqa]

They have a similar program in Utah for the "Lost Boys", young men who are forced out of the fundy-polygamist compounds for disagreeing with their father or wanting to learn something besides the Bible. It's hard for them to adjust since the only work they can find is typically manual labor (the result of being home-schooled WITHOUT getting a GED) and they often fall into alcoholism.

Isn't the reason the boys are forced out so that the male elders can have the pick of the young girls?

[Broomstick]

No, it's so the older men can have ALL the women, not just the "pick" of them.

Normal human male:female ratio is 50:50, but in the Mormon Fundies under Jeff Cheeks men were supposed to have a minimum of three wives to get into heaven. That requires a 1:3, minimum male:female ratio. So... what do they do with the "excess" young men?

Throw them out... like garbage. Just literally dump them along the freeway, the same way people abandon unwanted pets. No doubt, some terrible things happen to some of those boys/young men.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I remember in Israel there was a social program (I think run by volunteers) who helped kids raised in fundamentalist Jewish households make transition to secular life. It's like the Duggars situation writ large, there-- whole communities popping out dozens or more bratlings, but sooner or later, some of those family members are going to bolt. They have a hell of a time adjusting, sometimes...

Does DEATH or any of the other Israelis watching this subject have a line on this? I think it was in the Jerusalem Report or a supplement in Ha'aretz a few years back... I'd be curious to know what th epercentage is of kids who grow up to leave Fundy households, and if it corresponds to any data in the US...

Heh, I was discussing this with friends just yesterday. Yes, there are a number of such programs here, run by volunteers or even individuals meant to help religious people who "hozrim beshelah" (going back in question/leaving religion, as opposed to "returning to answer"/becoming religious). It's quite terrible though, the people who grow up in the Haridi (orthodox/fundamental) communities are people who have gone through an "education system" that may exclude math, or english for example, and they don't have the basics for dealing with everyday life.
The example I know of is a genius of a man (youngest qualified Rabbi in Israel ever, aged 20 and some) who didn't know what a credit card was. Or a bank account.
Another example was of someone who eventually came back into an arranged marriage due to not being able to fend for himself without money (as in any money at all. Nadda. Zip. not even a bank account), or a useful education as well as the fact that his entire social structure (friends, family) were inside the religious orthodox community and had ostracized him until he returned.
I don't have any statistics handy, I googles a bit and came with a name for one of the programs called "Dror", although the link is an article in Hebrew.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1012652.html - This Haaretz article has a 25% rate among the youth in moderate religious communities (The examples given were army goers), but that's very different from the Orthodox.

[Qwerty 42]

Wait, wait. She's undergone fifteen natural births? And welcomes more? You guys say what you want about her, but I'm not going to be the one to mess with her.

[eyl]

I don't have any statistics handy, I googles a bit and came with a name for one of the programs called "Dror", although the link is an article in Hebrew.

Dror website (dror, incidently, means "freedom").

[Pelranius]

I remember in Israel there was a social program (I think run by volunteers) who helped kids raised in fundamentalist Jewish households make transition to secular life. It's like the Duggars situation writ large, there-- whole communities popping out dozens or more bratlings, but sooner or later, some of those family members are going to bolt. They have a hell of a time adjusting, sometimes...

Does DEATH or any of the other Israelis watching this subject have a line on this? I think it was in the Jerusalem Report or a supplement in Ha'aretz a few years back... I'd be curious to know what th epercentage is of kids who grow up to leave Fundy households, and if it corresponds to any data in the US...

Heh, I was discussing this with friends just yesterday. Yes, there are a number of such programs here, run by volunteers or even individuals meant to help religious people who "hozrim beshelah" (going back in question/leaving religion, as opposed to "returning to answer"/becoming religious). It's quite terrible though, the people who grow up in the Haridi (orthodox/fundamental) communities are people who have gone through an "education system" that may exclude math, or english for example, and they don't have the basics for dealing with everyday life.
The example I know of is a genius of a man (youngest qualified Rabbi in Israel ever, aged 20 and some) who didn't know what a credit card was. Or a bank account.
Another example was of someone who eventually came back into an arranged marriage due to not being able to fend for himself without money (as in any money at all. Nadda. Zip. not even a bank account), or a useful education as well as the fact that his entire social structure (friends, family) were inside the religious orthodox community and had ostracized him until he returned.
I don't have any statistics handy, I googles a bit and came with a name for one of the programs called "Dror", although the link is an article in Hebrew.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1012652.html - This Haaretz article has a 25% rate among the youth in moderate religious communities (The examples given were army goers), but that's very different from the Orthodox.

If those people continue to make up an ever larger percentage of the Israeli population, then where the **** will the IDF draw its conscripts from in the future? Normal Jews and the various Arab groups like the Druze and Beoduins aren't going to stand for shouldering all the responsibility.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I remember in Israel there was a social program (I think run by volunteers) who helped kids raised in fundamentalist Jewish households make transition to secular life. It's like the Duggars situation writ large, there-- whole communities popping out dozens or more bratlings, but sooner or later, some of those family members are going to bolt. They have a hell of a time adjusting, sometimes...

Does DEATH or any of the other Israelis watching this subject have a line on this? I think it was in the Jerusalem Report or a supplement in Ha'aretz a few years back... I'd be curious to know what th epercentage is of kids who grow up to leave Fundy households, and if it corresponds to any data in the US...

Heh, I was discussing this with friends just yesterday. Yes, there are a number of such programs here, run by volunteers or even individuals meant to help religious people who "hozrim beshelah" (going back in question/leaving religion, as opposed to "returning to answer"/becoming religious). It's quite terrible though, the people who grow up in the Haridi (orthodox/fundamental) communities are people who have gone through an "education system" that may exclude math, or english for example, and they don't have the basics for dealing with everyday life.
The example I know of is a genius of a man (youngest qualified Rabbi in Israel ever, aged 20 and some) who didn't know what a credit card was. Or a bank account.
Another example was of someone who eventually came back into an arranged marriage due to not being able to fend for himself without money (as in any money at all. Nadda. Zip. not even a bank account), or a useful education as well as the fact that his entire social structure (friends, family) were inside the religious orthodox community and had ostracized him until he returned.
I don't have any statistics handy, I googles a bit and came with a name for one of the programs called "Dror", although the link is an article in Hebrew.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1012652.html - This Haaretz article has a 25% rate among the youth in moderate religious communities (The examples given were army goers), but that's very different from the Orthodox.

If those people continue to make up an ever larger percentage of the Israeli population, then where the **** will the IDF draw its conscripts from in the future? Normal Jews and the various Arab groups like the Druze and Beoduins aren't going to stand for shouldering all the responsibility.

The fundamentalists have their exemption loophole (that a lot of secular youth take advantage off), although the moderate/strongly religious (but not extremist/fundamental/Haredi/) represent a very large proportion of the combat units. They volunteer a lot and for the tougher combat units, and with a very high level of motivation.
There's the rest of your post (and the issue raised in it), but I'd prefer not to comment on it "here". (I'd be delighted to discuss it from a personal basis, but not on a public venue.)