Shocking News: Keanu Reeves Stars in Mediocre Sci-Fi Film

[Admiral Valdemar]

My opposition to eco-terrorism and violent pro-life terrorists demonstrates my ideology? All it says is that I oppose violent extremists on both sides of the political spectrum.

With respect, the ecological menace here is humanity, the one's displaying arrogance also our kind. The European colonists did not give the natives the choice Klaatu did, nor did they have have the possibility to cause the harm we can now. While two wrongs don't make a right, in this instance the other options were wasted.

[Bilbo]

It's not arrogance when you can actually pull it off.

So the European colonists who pushed aside the natives were not arrogant?

Wouldn't know, never met the guys (okay, chances are I DID at some point in my long and chequered career but that's beside the point).
They were however NOT arrogant in assuming they COULD eventually push aside the natives, because that is exactly what happened.
And they had a hell of a lot LESS of a tech advantage than the movie Aliens did.
When you outgun your opponent to the point where it would require an act of God for them not to lose assuming you'll win is not arrogance.

The arrogance is not in thinking you will win the fight. The arrogance comes from holding a superior attitude and "knowing" that you are in the right and your actions are justified. That is what I meant. Not that they were arrogant for thinking they could win. They were arrogant for their righteous attitude that their superior technology meant they were in the right and justified in deciding if humanity should live or die by their rules.

European colonists arrogantly convinced themself that the new land was their right and the locals be damned.

[Bilbo]

My opposition to eco-terrorism and violent pro-life terrorists demonstrates my ideology? All it says is that I oppose violent extremists on both sides of the political spectrum.

With respect, the ecological menace here is humanity, the one's displaying arrogance also our kind. The European colonists did not give the natives the choice Klaatu did, nor did they have have the possibility to cause the harm we can now. While two wrongs don't make a right, in this instance the other options were wasted.

Completely alter your way of life so that possibly billions will die or we will kill all of you. Quite a choice.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Completely alter your way of life so that possibly billions will die or we will kill all of you. Quite a choice.

Strawman. Show where humanity accomodating Klaatu's ideals means "possibly billions will die". We never heard him out, ergo, you cannot conclude the alternative was just as bad as the final option. Not to put too fine a point on it, but any species in overshoot faces die-off sooner or later. It is either controlled, or chaotic, but the end result is the excess fat gets trimmed. That's if we go it alone. Klaatu's technology would be far more capable of helping up be sustainable, or at the very least, allow a gentle decline curve.

[Bilbo]

Completely alter your way of life so that possibly billions will die or we will kill all of you. Quite a choice.

Strawman. Show where humanity accomodating Klaatu's ideals means "possibly billions will die". We never heard him out, ergo, you cannot conclude the alternative was just as bad as the final option. Not to put too fine a point on it, but any species in overshoot faces die-off sooner or later. It is either controlled, or chaotic, but the end result is the excess fat gets trimmed. That's if we go it alone. Klaatu's technology would be far more capable of helping up be sustainable, or at the very least, allow a gentle decline curve.

Look at our planet. There is no one person in charge and under the best of circumstances we can rarely agree on anything. There is no chance that we are going to agree much less be able to implement any sort of immediate planet wide "green-pprogram".

[Darth Ruinus]

Look at our planet. There is no one person in charge and under the best of circumstances we can rarely agree on anything. There is no chance that we are going to agree much less be able to implement any sort of immediate planet wide "green-pprogram".

If super-advanced aliens with nifty high tech weapons told us very nicely to do something, we'd do it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I agree, and that's the point of Cleese's discussion with Klaatu. Only at the brink of despair will people take command and change their ways. We can see this kind of shift happening today with respect to capitalism. If we saw the events of TDTESS and it wasn't some covered up government incident, then people may consider the alternatives to carrying on as we are. It will be the second renaissance.

[Bilbo]

I agree, and that's the point of Cleese's discussion with Klaatu. Only at the brink of despair will people take command and change their ways. We can see this kind of shift happening today with respect to capitalism. If we saw the events of TDTESS and it wasn't some covered up government incident, then people may consider the alternatives to carrying on as we are. It will be the second renaissance.

Wrong. The arguement only works after Klaatu has begun his attack. To say that humanity will suddenly do as they are told before a massive demonstration is assuming the carrot works even without using the stick. That is not human nature. Humanity would not agree to do this as a whole especially in any respectable timeframe. Who would be in charge? The UN? Don't make me laugh, 9 times out of 10 the organization is a joke and no one with a real brain would accept the UN as anything more than the barest concept of a unified world government. So it would be decades before we decided how to rule ourselves in a unified manner which would have to happen before we could implement what the aliens wanted. I am sure that would fail any time requirement the aliens had.

Anyone who knows an ounce about human nature would know this which mean Klaatu knew this long before he took his trip which also means he knew that he was coming to destroy humanity and we got lucky that he merely chose to criple humanity.

BTW, unless the aliens show up to save us his crippling us will destroy the ecosystem. Millions of trees around the world would be cut down within days in cold climates to warm homes. Billions would starve and the rest woudl be forced to deforest massive amounts of the planet. We would be pushed back to steam power. So a planet currently populated by 6.7 billion would be pushed down to a tech level equal to something in the 1800's when the planets population was less than 1.2 billion. Billions would starve, millions more would freeze to death, society everywhere except the most primative tribal regions would crumble and in its attempts to survive humanity would deforest a very large percentage of the planet and probably drive a huge number of species to extinction.

The actions of Klaatu and his allies are those of genocidal monsters. If humanity made it to the stars centuries later one can fully expect a war of retribution or at the very least attempts to bring this group of murderous bastards to justice somehow.

[Gil Hamilton]

I've got a question, Bilbo. Have you actually went out and seen the movie or are you basing all this on what I and Valdemar have said and are looking for any excuse to make the aliens monsters?

By the end of the movie, when Klaatu turns off all electrical based technology on Earth (we don't know for how long, as much as we know, it could have been for just two hours like in the original movie), the Nano Plague Apocalypse (according to a military display) covered a triangular area with points in Pittsburgh, Washington D.C., and Manhattan. It was at that point that, Klaatu called off Nano Plague Apocalypse. What's interesting is that we DON'T know what the cause of the power outage at the end of the film actually way. On thinking about it, Klaatu wasn't sure if he could stop the GORT swarm and keep in mind the swarm stops at the exact same moment every other electrical system on the planet goes down. The world wide power failure could have been his disabling every electrical system everywhere in order to ensure none of the Nano Plague survived.

That said, Klaatu directly states that for humanity's survival, sacrifices had to be made. That sacrifice may well be every electrical system on the planet being burned out. However, for your rant, it assumes that Klaatu's people are just going to pick up and leave, which is clearly not what they are going to do. The Earth is under new management and the arbiter Klaatu had decided humanity could mature into a responsible species after all, so chances are now the glowy orbs are going to come back and humanity will rebuild under alien supervision. Yeah, alot of people are probably going to die in the interim, assuming that the galactic civilizations don't simply start restoring power now that GORT had been aborted. However, being conquered and becoming a rehabilitation project for space aliens is a hell of alot better than all humans, everywhere, being exterminated.

[Bilbo]

However, being conquered and becoming a rehabilitation project for space aliens is a hell of alot better than all humans, everywhere, being exterminated.

Better would have been them taking their fucking high horse and staying the fuck away from our planet. Every death in the movie is THEIR fault. Every person who dies after the movie ends is THEIR fault.

None of this would have happened if Klaatu and pricks had not come long. Further we only have the words of Klaatu that most advanced people destroy themself as justification for their actions. Klaatu and company had nothing other than a guess based on the actions of other sentient species to know whether or not humanity would survive.

Like I said before Klaatu and company are no better than the European settlers who came to the Americas feeling they had the right take over and do what they want.

[Gil Hamilton]

Better would have been them taking their fucking high horse and staying the fuck away from our planet. Every death in the movie is THEIR fault. Every person who dies after the movie ends is THEIR fault.

None of this would have happened if Klaatu and pricks had not come long. Further we only have the words of Klaatu that most advanced people destroy themself as justification for their actions. Klaatu and company had nothing other than a guess based on the actions of other sentient species to know whether or not humanity would survive.

Like I said before Klaatu and company are no better than the European settlers who came to the Americas feeling they had the right take over and do what they want.

That analogy is still flawed. Aboriginal natives would have kept on going if European colonists had never arrived and North America itself would have been just fine. Without intervention, in this case, humanity would have likely become extinct no matter what happened. However, WITH intervention, even if humanity was still likely to be brought to a full stop, the Earth would have remained something that could have been rehabilitated. That's not a guess, really. Presumably, they actually have experience in the matter, both dealing with nascent species and sifting through the ruins of civilizations that failed to survive to maturity. Observation tell them that humanity most likely was going to destroy itself. Hell, we ourselves know they are almost certainly right unless we get our shit together. They weren't interested in enslaving us, or robbing us, or murdering us in the Glorious Name of Glowing Space Squid Jesus. Their goal was to salvage what could actually be salvaged, with or without humanity's survival.

That's a damn marked difference between them and European colonists. Note that if their plan had actually gone ahead (you know, without us shooting their ambassador and then attempt to take him prisoner against his will in the name of the National Security, then repeatedly attacking the alien's ship and sentry), humanity WOULD have survived. Had you watched the movie, before Klaatu kicked off Nano Plague Apocalypse, you'd know that every single instance of someone dying was Klaatu acting in self-defense, because the people involved were trying to kill him, and in the one case where there where the person was in whole enough shape, the alien even stopped to save the police officers life. I don't understand your position. You seem to be bending over backwards to make them evil mustache twirling conquering aliens. This isn't Mars Attacks, you know, and their actions weren't personal. It was clear that their first choice was for humanity to grow the fuck up and become good citizens of the galaxy, who took care of the planets in their care and could be dealt with as adults. Klaatu even did it when he got the opportunity, because no matter how disgusted he was with the state of humanity, there was clear sorrow in it (well, as much sorrow as Keanu Reeves is capable of emoting).

You really can't see the clear difference there before them and Conquistadors?

[Sidewinder]

This isn't Mars Attacks, you know, and their actions weren't personal. It was clear that their first choice was for humanity to grow the fuck up and become good citizens of the galaxy, who took care of the planets in their care and could be dealt with as adults.

The actions of Osama bin Laden & Co. weren't personal, either. It's clear that their first choice was for everyone on Earth to stop being infidels or athiests and become good Muslims, who obeyed Allah's dictates, gave to charity and performed good deeds according to those dictates, and could be dealt with as Muslims. Does that justify them setting off terror bombs all over the planet? Stoning to death women who were victims of rape or incest?

[Gil Hamilton]

The actions of Osama bin Laden & Co. weren't personal, either. It's clear that their first choice was for everyone on Earth to stop being infidels or athiests and become good Muslims, who obeyed Allah's dictates, gave to charity and performed good deeds according to those dictates, and could be dealt with as Muslims. Does that justify them setting off terror bombs all over the planet? Stoning to death women who were victims of rape or incest?

Alright, what the hell is it with people here making bad analogies? The difference is that there is nothing wrong with being an infidel or being an atheist. There IS something wrong with destroying what is apparently a very rare and important resource that is necessary for the continuation of life. There is something wrong with being blindly violent and aggressively destructive. This isn't a matter of ideology or religion or anything. They didn't come to the point of wanting to clear out humanity because it was different than them or violated their own personal ideology. They came to the point of clearing out humanity because in actual, real terms, it wasn't going to survive anyway, but the biosphere of Earth might have pulled through if they intervened.

If you are going to try and make a comparison to history, why don't you try actually finding a situation or group that is actually has something to do with the one we are discussing? Or, let me guess, you haven't actually seen the source material either, so you don't actually know what the aliens were actually about.

[Bilbo]

Better would have been them taking their fucking high horse and staying the fuck away from our planet. Every death in the movie is THEIR fault. Every person who dies after the movie ends is THEIR fault.

None of this would have happened if Klaatu and pricks had not come long. Further we only have the words of Klaatu that most advanced people destroy themself as justification for their actions. Klaatu and company had nothing other than a guess based on the actions of other sentient species to know whether or not humanity would survive.

Like I said before Klaatu and company are no better than the European settlers who came to the Americas feeling they had the right take over and do what they want.

That analogy is still flawed. Aboriginal natives would have kept on going if European colonists had never arrived and North America itself would have been just fine. Without intervention, in this case, humanity would have likely become extinct no matter what happened. However, WITH intervention, even if humanity was still likely to be brought to a full stop, the Earth would have remained something that could have been rehabilitated. That's not a guess, really. Presumably, they actually have experience in the matter, both dealing with nascent species and sifting through the ruins of civilizations that failed to survive to maturity. Observation tell them that humanity most likely was going to destroy itself. Hell, we ourselves know they are almost certainly right unless we get our shit together. They weren't interested in enslaving us, or robbing us, or murdering us in the Glorious Name of Glowing Space Squid Jesus. Their goal was to salvage what could actually be salvaged, with or without humanity's survival.

That's a damn marked difference between them and European colonists. Note that if their plan had actually gone ahead (you know, without us shooting their ambassador and then attempt to take him prisoner against his will in the name of the National Security, then repeatedly attacking the alien's ship and sentry), humanity WOULD have survived. Had you watched the movie, before Klaatu kicked off Nano Plague Apocalypse, you'd know that every single instance of someone dying was Klaatu acting in self-defense, because the people involved were trying to kill him, and in the one case where there where the person was in whole enough shape, the alien even stopped to save the police officers life. I don't understand your position. You seem to be bending over backwards to make them evil mustache twirling conquering aliens. This isn't Mars Attacks, you know, and their actions weren't personal. It was clear that their first choice was for humanity to grow the fuck up and become good citizens of the galaxy, who took care of the planets in their care and could be dealt with as adults. Klaatu even did it when he got the opportunity, because no matter how disgusted he was with the state of humanity, there was clear sorrow in it (well, as much sorrow as Keanu Reeves is capable of emoting).

You really can't see the clear difference there before them and Conquistadors?

Is it flawed? The Aztecs, Incans, and Mayans were not progressing technologically and were doing extensive damage to the environment. Given time and their lack of technological advancement they could have destroyed their environment. How is that different from what Klaatu and company felt about humans.

[Sidewinder]

The difference is that there is nothing wrong with being an infidel or being an atheist.

So you say. Do you think a Muslim fundamentalist will agree with you?

There IS something wrong with destroying what is apparently a very rare and important resource that is necessary for the continuation of life.

And destroying ANOTHER important resource that is necessary for the continuation of life, i.e., the technology to sow large areas of farmland and reap large amounts of crops, refrigerate or otherwise preserve large amounts of food, transport that food across the globe to whoever lacks it, transport casualties to hospitals with the equipment to treat them, run the medical equipment to keep those people alive, run heaters so people won't freeze to death in cold climates, run air conditioners so people won't die of heat strokes in hot climates, communicate with people across the globe to know what's needed and where it's needed... That's okay?

There is something wrong with being blindly violent and aggressively destructive. This isn't a matter of ideology or religion or anything. They didn't come to the point of wanting to clear out humanity because it was different than them or violated their own personal ideology.

Ecoterrorism isn't an ideology? The idea that it's better to commit GENOCIDE is than to pollute the environment, that's not an ideology?

They came to the point of clearing out humanity because in actual, real terms, it wasn't going to survive anyway, but the biosphere of Earth might have pulled through if they intervened.

And all you have to back that up is Klaatu's ecoterrorist bullshit. Besides, why DID the aliens have to intervene? Do astrologists protest against NASA for ruining Mars' environment with their landers? No, because what happens on Mars has NOTHING to do with what happens on Earth, just as what happens on Earth has NOTHING to do with what happens on Klaatu's homeworld.

If you are going to try and make a comparison to history, why don't you try actually finding a situation or group that is actually has something to do with the one we are discussing? Or, let me guess, you haven't actually seen the source material either, so you don't actually know what the aliens were actually about.

Obviously, the people who remade The Day the Earth Stood Still did NOT know what the aliens were actually about in the original.

[Darth Ruinus]

Is it flawed? The Aztecs, Incans, and Mayans were not progressing technologically and were doing extensive damage to the environment. Given time and their lack of technological advancement they could have destroyed their environment. How is that different from what Klaatu and company felt about humans.

He just pointed out to you how the analogy is flawed. The difference was the aliens came here to actually help, wanted to help, but were stopped because we never gave them the chance and started shooting at him.

[Bilbo]

Is it flawed? The Aztecs, Incans, and Mayans were not progressing technologically and were doing extensive damage to the environment. Given time and their lack of technological advancement they could have destroyed their environment. How is that different from what Klaatu and company felt about humans.

He just pointed out to you how the analogy is flawed. The difference was the aliens came here to actually help, wanted to help, but were stopped because we never gave them the chance and started shooting at him.

Not really. What they wanted is not something Earth could give them in any reasonable timescale. Invasion, destruction, of technological reduction were the only options for Klaatu to get what he wanted.

Saying they wanted to help doesnt matter when their requirements would be impossible to meet.

[Darth Ruinus]

Not really. What they wanted is not something Earth could give them in any reasonable timescale. Invasion, destruction, of technological reduction were the only options for Klaatu to get what he wanted.

Saying they wanted to help doesnt matter when their requirements would be impossible to meet.

Based on what evidence?

EDIT: Fixed the damn quote tags.

[Sidewinder]

He just pointed out to you how the analogy is flawed. The difference was the aliens came here to actually help, wanted to help, but were stopped because we never gave them the chance and started shooting at him.

George W. Bush thought overthrowing Saddam Hussein would actually help the common Iraqi citizen, and the US government provided BILLIONS of dollars in aid to Iraq after Baghdad fell. Does that make Operation Iraqi Freedom any LESS of a clusterfuck?

Even if Klaatu thought his actions would help the human race, "Hell is a road paved with good intentions." Thanks to his shutting down all electrical power sources on Earth, BILLIONS WILL DIE of starvation, freezing, heat strokes, failure of iron lungs and other life support devices...

[Darth Ruinus]

George W. Bush thought overthrowing Saddam Hussein would actually help the common Iraqi citizen, and the US government provided BILLIONS of dollars in aid to Iraq after Baghdad fell. Does that make Operation Iraqi Freedom any LESS of a clusterfuck?

Except in this case, the aliens have probably seen other races fuck up their own environments, and thus, have prior experience with how to help a race change its ways and stop its own death.

Even if Klaatu thought his actions would help the human race, "Hell is a road paved with good intentions." Thanks to his shutting down all electrical power sources on Earth, BILLIONS WILL DIE of starvation, freezing, heat strokes, failure of iron lungs and other life support devices...

Yes, but that only happened because we never gave him the chance to even attempt to help us. He was shot and then taken into US custody shortly thereafter.

[Junghalli]

So basically this movie sounds like they shoved in a bad clunky environmentalist aesop because that'd be more "relevant" than the aliens thinking humanity is a species of ax-crazy violent shitheads that can't be allowed to get off their little rock where they can only hurt themselves (an opinion I have a much easier time finding respect for than "we must kill them all to save the trees!").

Yeah I think I'll wait and rent it on DVD.

[Bilbo]

Except in this case, the aliens have probably seen other races fuck up their own environments, and thus, have prior experience with how to help a race change its ways and stop its own death.

And we have exactly what quote that they have done this before? By their actions they have already proven that they have jackshit for first contact experience.

[Themightytom]

And we have exactly what quote that they have done this before? By their actions they have already proven that they have jackshit for first contact experience.

Bilbo you jackass, you haven't see the movie yet, you just want a quote so that you can break it apart as out of context fodder for rebuttal.

Klatu represents a "group" of advanced civilizations, how the fuck would they know each other if they hadn't made first contact with each other. They have experience. I don't even see how you can accuse the ALIENS of poor first contact experience, Without spoon feeding you details so you can avoid actually watching the movie, and proceed with yanking opinions out off your ass, the aliens before EVEN LANDING demosntrated familiarity with our genetic make up, security systems, most likely first responses and geographic political concentrations. They knew what they were doing when they arrived, they had goals you probably wouldn't agree with but the degree of preparation they did beforehand indicates that any disparity between how they handled the situation and how YOU feel they handled it was the result not of inexperience, but more likely indifference.

Given the way that Helen was treated, and the reactions of the soldiers and personell, before the ship EVEN landed, what makes you think Klatu did a bad job of first contact, what could he really have done differently? Why don't you list EXACTLY where he screwed up or demonstrated a lack of experience?
Spoiler

It's not impossible to think that one of the reason's Klatu's people were so adamant aboutt saving the Earth was because they may have at one point inhabited it, Klatu reacted with some hostility, and almost incredulous disbelief when he was told it was "our" planet. if we became an advanced civilization and left for whatever reason and returned to find a bunch of super evolved dolphins or cockroaches running things, telling us it was "their" world and get the hell off, we would probably be like "What? Who the fuck are you??"
This scenario becomes even MORE likely if multiple species have evolved on the Earth over time (A la Dr Who) and some of them are part of Klatus' group.

by the way my opinion is the movie was doing alright until the last twenty minutes, when everyone involved seemed to go "Fuck are we still here doing this, lets get this the fuck over with..."
NOT enough resolution for me.

[Tanasinn]

I don't even see how you can accuse the ALIENS of poor first contact experience,

Well, they certainly demonstrate poor first contact conduct. "Oh hey, these humans are excitable and violent. Rather than using our immense technology to give them an undeniable message that we're coming and asking them nicely not to shoot us, let's mysteriously land our giant glowing sphere in the middle of one of the most important cities of the most militarized country on the planet without providing any information whatsoever! What could possibly go wrong?"

[Sky Captain]

When I watched this movie a thought occurred to me how in a real world we would handle first contact situation? Let`s assume aliens don`t have any super advanced tech based on principles we don`t understand like in the movie. What I`m proposing is we detect an incoming ship when it fires up it`s anti matter drive to decelerate and we have about a year time before ship slows down and enters inner solar system. It should be obvious that most likely intentions for aliens is to set up a colony in Solar system.

What would world powers do?
Would there be any attempts to hide this information from public?
What would be social and cultural consequences of knowing there are others out there and they are coming right to us. Some people have suggested in scenario like this there would be mass rioting and global breakdown of social order. Would that be the case?