Chinese Navy deploys for first time in 500 years

[Ender]

I'm using deploy in the Navy sense for those who are going to nitpick the title

From the dockside of the Yalong Bay base the three decorated vessels that weighed anchor and slipped off into the tropical seas yesterday afternoon might have been any normal coastal patrol.

For Beijing – and for governments watching across the globe – it was the beginning of a new era in world naval history. The interests of China now extend far beyond its borders but this was the first time in more than five centuries that it has travelled outside its territorial waters to defend them.

The last time a Chinese military fleet set sail for anywhere as far afield as Africa with the prospect of a fight at the other end, the ships were 400ft (122m) wooden junks and the commander was a Ming dynasty court eunuch called Zheng He.

The Chinese ships – two high-tech, heavily armed destroyers and a supply vessel – will spend the next ten days bound for the Gulf of Aden, off the coast of Somalia, which has been the scene of more than 100 hijackings within the past year.

There have been seven attacks involving Chinese ships or crew since January and the pirate attacks show few signs of abating – pirates have made an estimated $30 million (£20 million) this year. On Christmas Day a German military helicopter rescued an Egyptian ship from a violent hijacking.

The ships will spend three months patrolling the seas, protecting Chinese merchant ships and the flow of strategic cargo – chiefly crude oil and minerals – through the region. Critically, and in a significant and historic break with policy, the Chinese ships are travelling on the assumption that they will engage in combat with the enemy.

“It’s the first time we go abroad to protect our strategic interests armed with military force,” Wu Shengli, the commander of the Chinese Navy, said at the launch on Hainan island. He described the deployment as an international humanitarian mission.

Lieutenant-Commander Xie Zengling said: “If the pirates make direct threats to the warships or the vessels we escort, the fleet will take counter-measures.” His special forces members could “handle several enemies with their bare hands”, he added.

The ships, which have a crew of 800, will join a swelling armada of ships from navies around the world – all deployed in recent weeks after the United Nations called for a sterner response to the escalation of piracy. The international and cooperative nature of the Aden deployment however, defence analysts said, does not disguise the significance of yesterday’s departure.

In an era where China is playing a much larger global role in commerce and politics, the deployment redefines it as a nation prepared to spill blood protecting its diverse stakes in the world economy. Some also see it as yet another step on China’s path to superpower status. This week, in a rare press conference, senior Defence Ministry figures said for the first time that China was seriously considering building its first aircraft carrier – a development that has been rumoured since the 1980s. “An aircraft carrier is a symbol of the country’s overall national strength as well as the competitiveness of the country’s force,” said Colonel Huang Xueping.

The prospect of a Chinese aircraft carrier has obsessed defence analysts in Washington and around the Asia region where China is engaged in a series of territorial and resource disputes with its neighbours.

Japan, which has already expressed concerns over China’s growing military spending, showed clear signs that it was rattled by Beijing’s deployment to Aden. Taro Aso, the Prime Minister, yesterday ordered his Defence Ministry to find a way to also deploy naval vessels to fight pirates off Somalia.

The apparent eagerness by Beijing to join the nations represented in Aden – including Britain, the US and Russia – is also thought to derive from rivalry with India, whose ships have shouldered much of the burden of fighting piracy in the region.

Sailing out of the past

— Zheng He is also known as Cheng Ho, or the Three Jewel Eunuch Admiral

— He was castrated at the age of 10, when Ming troops came to his village to crush Mongol rebels

— After being captured he was sent to the army, and rose through the ranks to become Chief Eunuch and admiral

— In 28 years he sailed to 37 countries. More than 1,100 treasure ships, some more than 400ft in length, were constructed for his seven voyages

— Some historians suggest that he was the inspiration for Sinbad the Sailor. Another theory suggests that he discovered the New World in the 1420s, 70 years before Columbus

Sources: Columbia Encyclopaedia; Encyclopaedia of World Biography; Dictionary of World History; bbc.co.uk

Historic, but unnerving at the same time.

[hongi]

Another theory suggests that he discovered the New World in the 1420s, 70 years before Columbus

Which is a load of crap by the way, peddled by one fruitcake. Hardly deserving of the title of theory.

[Rogue 9]

Frankly, I'm not going to complain about additional firepower being aimed at the Somali pirates, no matter who's on the trigger end. Two destroyers and a supply ship are hardly something to get worked up about in the sense of being a threat to Western interests.

[KlavoHunter]

Frankly, the Chinese will not harm their interests by doing anything other than hunting pirates.

I for one can't wait to see the Chinese executing any pirates they get their hands on.

[K. A. Pital]

What's unnerving about the PLAN deploying? Especially against pirates of all things?

[Broomstick]

But Stas - it's a COMMIE NAVY!!!!!!!

More seriously - there is a contingent in the US (and possibly elsewhere in the west) that views a more powerful and more outward-looking China as a threat. They do, after all, outnumber any other single country and they are making rapid advances in technology of late. They have certainly been a world power before, why couldn't they be again?

Myself, I view this as an example of just how provocative and threatening these pirates are, to pull Chinese ships away from China for the first time in five centuries. I don't really think this heralds a new era in expansionism for China. I expect that when the pirate threat is gone (or greatly reduced, there are always pirates to one degree or another) these ships will go home.

[Jim Raynor]

The deployment is two destroyers which lag far behind Western standards, and a single supply ship. Even if the Chinese were serious about projecting power they wouldn't be sending much else, because subpar destroyers are the best they have. I don't see any need for concern at all.

[Ubiquitous]

The deployment is two destroyers which lag far behind Western standards, and a single supply ship. Even if the Chinese were serious about projecting power they wouldn't be sending much else, because subpar destroyers are the best they have. I don't see any need for concern at all.

I'd take two of them over two T42's in their current state...

[Phantasee]

They may not be the most modern ships, but how do you think they're going to get any sort of modern ships if they don't learn how to use what they have? You can't keep building ships and then keeping them within your territorial waters, and somehow expect to end up with a navy to make maybe the European powers nervous. Unless the plan is to just go for quantity over quality

[hawkwind]

Doesnt change the fact that regular destroyer is magnitudes of more powerfull than machine gun armed speedboat.
True is that chinese would probably have no qualms to open fire when they get chance, unlike "ohs o carefull not to violate somebodys rights" western powers.

J.

[Ender]

What's unnerving about the PLAN deploying? Especially against pirates of all things?

The same reason it is unnerving when the US bombs some shithole or Russia rattles its saber. You do not awaken a sleeping giant. When the big guys pull out the big stick it isn't going to be pleasant and you have to wonder whether this is the start towards something that will come to a head later on. Russian peacekeepers in Georgia seemed like a fine enough idea in the 90s and kept a clamp on ethnic cleansing. But circumstances changed and there was a war as a result. The US gave Afghans missile launchers to keep the Soviets from being able to project power over the Gulf of Oman. Twenty years later we get the GWoT. China has been hampered in projecting power by its low state of mobility, keeping them to Tibet and other "local" places. This is now no longer the case, and you have to wonder where it is going to end. It is unlikely they are just going to trundle back home and not deploy for another 500 years after this. China has been copying the other powers in influencing other nations by supporting certain factions with arms and money for a long time now. Now they are demonstrating a willingness and ability to go the next step and become directly involved.

But Stas - it's a COMMIE NAVY!!!!!!!

You really are useless, aren't you? No reasoning, no thought, just slap on a stereotype and flame. Yes, I must be one of those knee-jerk reactionaries, and not someone who is actually familiar with their abilities and the geopolitics of the region. It isn't like I had to sit through god only knows how many briefings on the subject. No, far easier for you to try and put on airs here by slamming me as you post your opinion rather than to just state your own opinion. Gets you more brownie points this way.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think they were probably going to try to get a naval presence near Africa at one point or another - they have quite a lot invested in a number of African countries. This is merely a (good, but slightly uneasy) reason for them to get a move on.

[Broomstick]

The deployment is two destroyers which lag far behind Western standards, and a single supply ship. Even if the Chinese were serious about projecting power they wouldn't be sending much else, because subpar destroyers are the best they have. I don't see any need for concern at all.

The significance is that this is part of a trend of moving from an inward-looking, isolationist nation to one more extroverted. Think of the way the Chinese have been expanding their economy and trade connections, their hosting of the Olympics (not to mention the unprecedented effort and expense put into that), their space activities, their growing influence and activity in various African nations... The Chinese do seem to be more and more concerned with the world outside their borders.

They're using "sub-par destroyers" because that's what they have, but I have no doubt that if they feel a need for better they could design and build it in a very short period of time. After all, they have massive manpower and a government able to divert resources to whatever project is deemed most worthy.

They may not be the most modern ships, but how do you think they're going to get any sort of modern ships if they don't learn how to use what they have? You can't keep building ships and then keeping them within your territorial waters, and somehow expect to end up with a navy to make maybe the European powers nervous. Unless the plan is to just go for quantity over quality

Taken to an extreme, quantity has been known to work over quality.

It may be the Chinese weren't seriously planning to deploy beyond their immediate area but the pirate issue got bad enough to prompt naval action, so they went with what they had. The real question is whether or not they'll go home after the pirates are dealt with, or if they'll decide to involve themselves overseas most often. If the latter I would expect them to construct some much more modern and capable ships in short order.

There is no reason China couldn't build an aircraft carrier, or a dozen of them, they just haven't wanted to do it until now. I would prefer no one in the world give them an incentive to build one, but it's not like I have any influence on those matters!

At this point, assuming nothing changes, I don't expect the Chinese to launch into a ship-building spree. After all, they've got a lot to worry about back home and in their own backyard. On the other hand, things can change. Or this might be the first overt steps in a long range Chinese plan I'm not privy to.

But Stas - it's a COMMIE NAVY!!!!!!!

You really are useless, aren't you? No reasoning, no thought, just slap on a stereotype and flame. Yes, I must be one of those knee-jerk reactionaries, and not someone who is actually familiar with their abilities and the geopolitics of the region. It isn't like I had to sit through god only knows how many briefings on the subject. No, far easier for you to try and put on airs here by slamming me as you post your opinion rather than to just state your own opinion. Gets you more brownie points this way.

MOST people would deduce, from the next paragraph starting with "More seriously...", that I was being sarcastic but YOU are much more interested in scoring points. It wasn't even fucking directed as you, asshat, but at the kneejerk reactions of certain elements in the US - but maybe if you identify so strongly with crackers, rednecks, and kneejerkers you are one after all. So sorry you couldn't grasp the fact I was making fun of the sorts of people who still believe in a commie threat lurking under their beds.

Holy fuck, Ender, it wasn't like I was quoting you or anything, why the fuck do you think I was thinking of YOU when I was responding to Stas? You don't own the fucking thread just because you started it. If you want to limit who participates maybe you should say so up front... oh, wait, I don't think you have the authority to do that, do you? Must suck to be you.

Yes, it was my opinion - that should have been obvious from "I view this as...." and "I don't think..." but no, so much easier to go for the throat because, after all, we're here to attack each other rather than discuss anything. If you actually fucking read the rest of my post you'd realize that I was arguing against that very attitude but no, so much easy to just skip the second half of the post. Anyhow, I was in no way setting myself up as an expert. If YOU are a fucking expert of some sort then by all means come in and share your expertise... oh, wait, it's so much more fun to take pot shots at other people who weren't even talking to you.

I realize you hate me but this is a new low, even for you.

Fuck off, asshole.[/size]

[MKSheppard]

Actually, the Chinese are already on a worldwide scale. Who do you think is funding most of the fighting and resource wars in Africa right now? Yep, that's right China.

Need to arm your rebel army? China will give you a billion AK-47s, RPG-7s and perhaps some tanks, in exchange for Chinese corporations getting preferential treatment under the new regime.

Elsewhere, Chinese merchants are setting up shop in Africa and slowly driving out the native merchants, because they're relatively honest, hardworking, and MUCH LESS CORRUPT than the native versions.

Africa will be China's stomping ground in the 21st century.

[Broomstick]

So, Shep, in a nutshell is what you're saying is that Africa is about to be colonized and raped again, but this time by China instead of Europe?

[Edi]

But Stas - it's a COMMIE NAVY!!!!!!!

You really are useless, aren't you? No reasoning, no thought, just slap on a stereotype and flame. Yes, I must be one of those knee-jerk reactionaries, and not someone who is actually familiar with their abilities and the geopolitics of the region. It isn't like I had to sit through god only knows how many briefings on the subject. No, far easier for you to try and put on airs here by slamming me as you post your opinion rather than to just state your own opinion. Gets you more brownie points this way.

Ender, seriously, this is starting to look like you have a vendetta against Broomstick. She made a sarcastic glib comment to Stas, a crack that anyone here could have made. Hell, I could have made it if I were in the mood for it and happened to think of that. She then explained why she made it and what kind of attitudes she was targeting with it, which was all reasonable and right in accordance with the standards of conduct in N&P.

You just took the glib comment and pulled out all the stops on the flamethrower, with a reference to what she said about there being morons with reactionary attitudes out there. And we both know there are people exactly like that. She's also right in that it makes you look like one of them, even if we both know better. Try to chill out a bit, okay? That was uncalled for, no ifs, buts or maybes about it.

[Guardsman Bass]

Actually, the Chinese are already on a worldwide scale. Who do you think is funding most of the fighting and resource wars in Africa right now? Yep, that's right China.

Need to arm your rebel army? China will give you a billion AK-47s, RPG-7s and perhaps some tanks, in exchange for Chinese corporations getting preferential treatment under the new regime.

Elsewhere, Chinese merchants are setting up shop in Africa and slowly driving out the native merchants, because they're relatively honest, hardworking, and MUCH LESS CORRUPT than the native versions.

Africa will be China's stomping ground in the 21st century.

It was going to happen at some point again, in lieu of most of Africa actually developing stable regimes and prosperous economies, since Africa is rich in resources (plus it has the advantage of being the "other" area, since the US usually tends to focus more attention northeast in the Middle East), and those are in demand (not to mention the whole "power abhors a vaccuum" deal).

[Lonestar]

So, Shep, in a nutshell is what you're saying is that Africa is about to be colonized and raped again, but this time by China instead of Europe?

It's been a somewhat continual process. IIRC, there are many instances of Chinese "humanitarian aid" turning out to go directly to the the local militaries(PLA Combat Engineer "Peacekeepers" in Sudan building housing for the Sudanese military and their militias). The locals also like Chinese economic aid because the Chinese just hand it to the local governments and don't ask any questions as to how it is spent(meanwhile the World Bank and IMF come back and audit the loans).

Part of the reason why AFRICOM was established was to mitigate growing Chinese influence on the continent.

[PainRack]

Meh..... I find it more interesting that the article talks about first time in 500 years and the commander speech excerpt.

The Chinese did deploy to defend their strategic interests when they interfered in North Korea, Vietnam, and as for ships..... the fact that Ming era pirates were raiding Manila and that Chinese vessels were deployed in an ineffectual attempt to fight them is well...................... Just another bunch of hogwash.

The article skimps over the fact that this appears to be a gradual and evolving deployment of Chinese forces, interests and etc in Africia.

[mr friendly guy]

So, Shep, in a nutshell is what you're saying is that Africa is about to be colonized and raped again, but this time by China instead of Europe?

Wouldn't that depend on what China is giving the African nations it deals with in exchange for African resources? Someone posted an article a while ago about China's dealings with African nations. IIRC these included building new infrastructure - roads, hospitals etc.

[Broomstick]

Building infrastructure does not rule out exploiting the locals and their resources. The British Empire, after all, did a lot building their colonies, in the Americas from California-Nevada-Arizona all the way down to Tierre del Fuego are examples of Spanish-built infrastructure still being utilized, and US banana companies (among others) financed and built entire rail systems in the original "banana republics" in Latin America.

The Chinese might build schools, hospitals, roads, transportation networks, sewers, and all manner of infrastructure in Africa while extracting resources and paying the natives starvation wages.

Whether the native Africans are left better off or not is a different question than whether or how much the Chinese are building in Africa.

[mr friendly guy]

The Chinese might build schools, hospitals, roads, transportation networks, sewers, and all manner of infrastructure in Africa while extracting resources and paying the natives starvation wages.

From memory the Chinese corporations tended to bring their own workers in rather than hiring locals. Generally Chinese workers earn more money doing these overseas jobs than if they did similar job in China. Which begs the question, would they locals be better off if these companies hired them, even at low wages. I don't know the answer to that.

Whether the native Africans are left better off or not is a different question than whether or how much the Chinese are building in Africa.

Time will tell that one. Hospitals would certainly improve the standard of living, provided the care is affordable or government subsidised. That of course is out of the PRC's hands as they just give the money to the African governments with no other strings attached.

[The Dark]

The two destroyers being deployed are the DDG-169 Haikou and the DDG-171 Wuhan, which are relatively new (Haikou was launched in 2003, Wuhan in 2005). The supply ship, Weishanhu, was launched in 2004. The destroyers are slightly different, with Haikou being a Type 052B, Wuhan a Type 052C (NATO reporting name Luyang I-class and Luyang II-class). They use fairly decent Russian SAMs (9M38 Buk-M1-2, aka SA-N-12 Grizzly), have a stealth-influenced hull, a 100mm gun, C-602 cruise missiles, and torpedo tubes. Generally, they're considered a rough equivalent to a Russian Sovremenny or the Kidd-class destroyers we sold to Taiwan. The use of half of their Type 052 destroyers, rather than the Sovremennys that were purchased from Russia, suggests also a propaganda role, which makes perfect sense. Not only will it be the PLAN's crews, but also Chinese-built ships taking part in the first long-range deployment.

[Ender]

But Stas - it's a COMMIE NAVY!!!!!!!

You really are useless, aren't you? No reasoning, no thought, just slap on a stereotype and flame. Yes, I must be one of those knee-jerk reactionaries, and not someone who is actually familiar with their abilities and the geopolitics of the region. It isn't like I had to sit through god only knows how many briefings on the subject. No, far easier for you to try and put on airs here by slamming me as you post your opinion rather than to just state your own opinion. Gets you more brownie points this way.

Ender, seriously, this is starting to look like you have a vendetta against Broomstick. She made a sarcastic glib comment to Stas, a crack that anyone here could have made. Hell, I could have made it if I were in the mood for it and happened to think of that. She then explained why she made it and what kind of attitudes she was targeting with it, which was all reasonable and right in accordance with the standards of conduct in N&P.

You just took the glib comment and pulled out all the stops on the flamethrower, with a reference to what she said about there being morons with reactionary attitudes out there. And we both know there are people exactly like that. She's also right in that it makes you look like one of them, even if we both know better. Try to chill out a bit, okay? That was uncalled for, no ifs, buts or maybes about it.

No. The question was asked of me, by Stas. Her response to Stas was her shoving words into my mouth, strawmanning me and lumping me in with the usual group that, as you point out is routinely mocked here. That we all know that these people are out there in no way changes the fact that this was a deliberate attempt to frame me as one of them by answering the question for me. Don't piss down my neck and tell me its raining Edi.

Let us consider a hypothetical thread dealing with, say, Israel. In said thread, you made a post critical of the governments actions. Someone asked you why you were critical of these actions. And before you get to respond, another poster pipes in "because he hates jews". Now this attitude is a known source for some criticism from ignorant parts of the population. However, that "joke" also just accused you of being an anti-Semite. According to what you are stating here, the response to that would be to "lulz 4 sure", and not flame the poster who just tried to poison the well against you. Somehow I doubt that would be the actual response in that situation.

If you want to chide me for something, I'll cop to being guilty of biting on her bait - stick your thumb in someone's eye and play the hurt victim afterwards is an old trick and I should have been smarter than falling for it and giving her another excuse to play drama queen. But this isn't a vendetta, this is me responding in kind when someone takes a shot at me.

[K. A. Pital]

I agree with Ender. He must have had his own reasons to say it's unnerving (and he provided them, considering any acts of deployment by great powers to be unnerving which is a position I disagree with, but understand). The joke had the right to exist, but it should've been explicitly decoupled from being a mockery of Ender's point of view.