195 Dead in Israel Attack on Gaza

[weemadando]

Last I heard Hamas was still the elected government of the Palestinians. Is that not the case any more?

And when was the last time anyone in the West, or you know, with some real authority actually recognised them? Didn't Condie snub them on her farewell trip around the ME?

[Uraniun235]

The very fact that the Palestinian people keep on supporting these terrorist fucks who keep provoking the Israelis into doing this indicates a severe mental malfunction on the part of the Palestinians.

The violence will stop when the Palestinians elect a government that condemns terrorism, and either uproots it themselves, or else is amenable to accepting outside assistance (Be it Israeli or otherwise) in dealing with those who would rather not have peace.

What a wonderfully simple solution! If only those damn terror-loving A-rabs would see reason, eh?

Democratic institutions, much like market forces, are only able to function well when the voters are capable of making informed decisions. Do you really believe that most Palestinian voters could be considered "informed" enough to make such a judgment? Or that they'd even believe you when you say the violence would stop if they vigorously policed themselves?


The Palestinians have no faith in the integrity of Israel, nor of the United States. Similarly, the Israelis and Americans have no faith in the integrity of the Palestinians. Therefore, international arbitration (and enforcement) is the only way towards a medium-term peaceful solution, in my opinion. Too bad that sort of thing is too expensive even in a strong economy. We'll just have to hope that in the long-term it all fades away via intermarriage.

Last I heard Hamas was still the elected government of the Palestinians. Is that not the case any more?

Which is technically in a state of war with the State of Israel. One attacks the enemy government and military, does one not?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I guess I'm fuzzy on what the objective of the strike was. The impression I got from the article was that the targets included police departments. Is Israel attempting to damage the viability of the Palestinian government - and if so for what purpose? As a prelude to invasion and occupation? Or just to make life even more miserable for an already-miserable society?

Are they trying to generate resentment among the Palestinians towards Hamas? If so, what's the next step if the Palestinians just dig in? And if the 'next step' is 'hit them harder', how hard should they hit?

I guess the real question is, is there a coherent strategy at work, or is this just bloody-minded revenge?

[Coyote]

It's funny, when the Russians beat up the Georgian army, the West (and if I remember correctly, some people in here as well) were pontificating about the response being "disproportional", the silence from the West when it comes it Israel is fucking deafening.

Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response, providing a propaganda/sympathy victory for the pin-prickers-- at the cost of a bunch of one's own, if you're willing to bear that.

The game is as old as the tie between mass media & asymmetrical warfare.

[weemadando]

It's funny, when the Russians beat up the Georgian army, the West (and if I remember correctly, some people in here as well) were pontificating about the response being "disproportional", the silence from the West when it comes it Israel is fucking deafening.

Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response, providing a propaganda/sympathy victory for the pin-prickers-- at the cost of a bunch of one's own, if you're willing to bear that.

The game is as old as the tie between mass media & asymmetrical warfare.

There has hardly been deafening silence in Australia. In fact, the news that I listen/watch (ABC, SBS and BBC mainly) has all been focused on the big ole bully Israelis bombing densely inhabited civilian areas.

[hongi]

Why does Hamas allow or encourage militant groups to attack Israel anyway? The only reason I can think of is that they benefit from the continued suffering of their populace, and sympathy from the Arab world. In which case Israel is playing right into Hamas' hands.

[Gil Hamilton]

Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response, providing a propaganda/sympathy victory for the pin-prickers-- at the cost of a bunch of one's own, if you're willing to bear that.

The game is as old as the tie between mass media & asymmetrical warfare.

If that is the case, why doesn't Israel stop with the massive retaliatory response and try something else? Because bombing them and then acting surprised and outraged that killing a handful of their population doesn't convert them to the side of sweetness and light isn't working.

[bobalot]

The violence will stop when the Palestinians elect a government that condemns terrorism, and either uproots it themselves, or else is amenable to accepting outside assistance (Be it Israeli or otherwise) in dealing with those who would rather not have peace.

Are you fucking joking? Do you live in a fucking fantasy universe? Israel isn't going to give the Palestinians jack shit if they don't have any sort of military capability. They simply dictate a victors peace and that will be it. Fatah did exactly what Israel wanted for a while (There is a reason why Fatah is so unpopular now and why Israel is covertly supporting them). They tried within their capability to stop attacks, held elections, etc. What did they get? Israel continued to expand their illegal settlements. Settlements so blatantly provocative and wrong that Israels bitch, the United States said they are illegal and should stop expanding. Israel gave everybody the finger and continued expanding them anyway. Sure they pulled out of Gaza but the West Bank settlements continue.

40% of the Land in the West Bank are for settlers (The actual settlements, roads, etc.), where 100,000 Settlers live. The millions of Palestinians live in the rest. The land the settlers get is also prime agricultural land. Israel controls all water within the West Bank (In fact even forbids the Palestinians from drilling for more), only 20% of the water pumped out of the West Bank is allocated to the Palestinians.You really believe that if the Palestinians hold elections and ask nicely, they will get a fair and equitable deal out of this? What a fucking load of bullshit. Israel has no intention of giving the Palestinians anything, the fact the Palestinians are armed is easy excuse to continue taking up all the prime resources and land.

[bobalot]

...Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response...

I once knew a person use that excuse for his domestic violence against his wife. She kept niggling and nagging him everyday and so he one day got the shits and beat her up. The police weren't particularly impressed with his excuse, maybe they just weren't all that understanding.

[The Grim Squeaker]

...Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response...

I once knew a person use that excuse for his domestic violence against his wife. She kept niggling and nagging him everyday and so he one day got the shits and beat her up. The police weren't particularly impressed with his excuse, maybe they just weren't all that understanding.

Since of course, rocket attacks and attempted infiltration attempts are comparable to verbal abuse .

[The Grim Squeaker]

Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response, providing a propaganda/sympathy victory for the pin-prickers-- at the cost of a bunch of one's own, if you're willing to bear that.

The game is as old as the tie between mass media & asymmetrical warfare.

If that is the case, why doesn't Israel stop with the massive retaliatory response and try something else? Because bombing them and then acting surprised and outraged that killing a handful of their population doesn't convert them to the side of sweetness and light isn't working.

Trying...What?

The pullout of civilians (And the Israeli presence) from Gaza resulted in Israeli citizens far deeper inside Israel being bombarded constantly with rockets, in increasing quantites.
The best solution (in my personal opinion) at the least would be an international force there to keep the Hammas (and other terrorist organizations) from constantly bombarding citizens with weaponry. (The Israeli media has been continually pointing out that most interpretation has the desire for international intervention). Granted, the UN peacekeeping forces haven't stopped Hezbollah from strengthening in Lebanon, but it's better than nothing, and better than allowing the cycle of terrorist attacks to draw a response. (The prime imperative of a state is to protect its citizens after all).

[bobalot]

...Of course, I also remember the response being that it was disproportionate-- but understandable, too. Constant, never-ending pinpricks eventually evoking a massive retaliatory response...

I once knew a person use that excuse for his domestic violence against his wife. She kept niggling and nagging him everyday and so he one day got the shits and beat her up. The police weren't particularly impressed with his excuse, maybe they just weren't all that understanding.

Since of course, rocket attacks and attempted infiltration attempts are comparable to verbal abuse .

Of course they aren't the same. The line of reasoning is similar enough. That massive and disproportionate retaliation is eventually always justifiable.

[Minischoles]

Of course they aren't the same. The line of reasoning is similar enough. That massive and disproportionate retaliation is eventually always justifiable.

It's only the same line of reasoning if you twist it to be. There's no comparison between daily, almost hourly rocket attacks on your cities and civilians and getting nagged at.
But really, what else are they supposed to do when Hamas doesn't stop firing rockets, even during a ceasefire? just call them a bunch of cheeky scamps and send them on their merry way?
Hamas is manipulating the media so superbly you'd almost think they were employing a professional PR company, since they can turn them firing rockets into Israel and hitting cities and provoking a response into it being Israels fault.

It's like going up to a dog and poking it with a stick until it mauls you and then playing the victim who got mauled by the bad untrained dog. But of course thats probably what Hamas want, they want Israel to bomb them and invade them, so they can justify staying in power, justify their actions of continuing to fire rockets into Israel and get more international support since they're the poor attacked victims in this.

[Edi]

Right. Moratorium lock.