Doctor Who "The Next Doctor" [spoilers]

[NecronLord]

I wounder how the Dalek's got hold of footage of the Doctor from inside the titanic and from under the Thames barrier? Unless they have been stealing cctv tapes.

That's pretty much a fourth wall thing; it's like why you'll generally see a montage of the previous doctors in monochrome. The first two were shot in black and white, so there's not much colour images to pick from.

[Captain Seafort]

I wounder how the Dalek's got hold of footage of the Doctor from inside the titanic and from under the Thames barrier? Unless they have been stealing cctv tapes.

They'd have had to have been stealing tapes from somewhere. Weren't the First through Third Doctors' encounters with the Daleks wiped out by the events of Genesis?

[Gemini-Preserver]

No I dont think they were. Genisis was the very beginning of the Daleks, the other Doctors encounters where from different points in the timeline of there exsistence. If i recall correctly the very first encounter with them was at the end of there exsistence, or at least that paticualr faction on Skaro's exsistence

[Captain Seafort]

No I dont think they were. Genisis was the very beginning of the Daleks

A beginning that was changed considerably by the Doctor's intervention, as explicitly stated by the BBC website.

[Patrick Degan]

No I dont think they were. Genisis was the very beginning of the Daleks

A beginning that was changed considerably by the Doctor's intervention, as explicitly stated by the BBC website.

The BBC lifted that from Cornell, Topping, and Day's Discontinuity Guide, but it does make sense from what's seen in the series.

[Stark]

Yeah it depends a lot on your point of view. You'd think the goddamn Time War would have changed a tiny bit more, but as NL says it's all stock footage so there's not a lot of choice.

[NecronLord]

No I dont think they were. Genisis was the very beginning of the Daleks, the other Doctors encounters where from different points in the timeline of there exsistence. If i recall correctly the very first encounter with them was at the end of there exsistence, or at least that paticualr faction on Skaro's exsistence

The First Doctor said 'that must be a million years in the future' during the Invasion of Earth, but it's probable he was guessing, given that his ability to pilot the TARDIS left much to be desired.

[DaveJB]

They'd have had to have been stealing tapes from somewhere. Weren't the First through Third Doctors' encounters with the Daleks wiped out by the events of Genesis?

At the very least, "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" still took place, as per the Doctor's words in Remembrance.

The First Doctor said 'that must be a million years in the future' during the Invasion of Earth, but it's probable he was guessing, given that his ability to pilot the TARDIS left much to be desired.

That wasn't really his fault though, since the TARDIS's directional control had been broken some point before the start of the series, to the point where he had to steal one from the Meddling Monk (accidentally blowing it up in the process) just to be able to accurately plot one journey in "The Dalek's Masterplan." Evidently it got fixed by the Time Lords at some point, so they could send the third Doctor on those little missions they gave him before the TARDIS was fully restored.

[NecronLord]

I wonder if that could have been part of the 'new' dimensional stabiliser he got as a reward for defeating Omega.

[Patrick Degan]

It could also have been the result of his constant research and tinkering to try to evade the Time Lords' ban and get the Ship working again —with a little assistance from the Master ("The Claws Of Axos"). By the time of "The Time Monster", the Doctor had managed to achieve free movement in Earth's timeline but could not pilot offworld unless under the joint control of the Time Lords for particular missions ("The Curse Of Peladon", "The Mutants", "Colony In Space"). He might have eventually managed to circumvent the operational restrictions on his TARDIS and escaped exile, but it would have taken him far longer without the Time Lords lifting his sentence and restoring to him a working demat circuit and his knowledge of the key codes for the Ship. Afterward, we see the Doctor having far better control of the TARDIS than in previous incarnations. After all that effort, he would be far more familiar with the Ship's systems than he was when he hijacked her.

[TC Pilot]

Alright, that episode was pure nonsense. A gigantic robot (powered by a few minutes of child labor?) shooting up 1850s London and no one remembers that kind of thing? Magic "animal" Cybermen? Cybermen in general? "Journey's End" was bad enough, but at least then there was some semblance of a coherent plot (however bad though it was).

It was still fun, though. Nonsensical plot aside, Doctor Who needs more ludicrously over-the-top sci-fi like the Cyberking. It grates on me the way we keep seeing machine gun-wielding soldiers in the 10,000 AD and the like, so it was a nice change of pace. Oh yeah, and the "Doctor" was pretty good too.

[loomer]

I wouldn't mind seeing stories with more 18th century Cybermen, but ones that make a bit more sense ideally. What better foe to have during the industrial revolution than men of steel without souls?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I wouldn't mind seeing stories with more 18th century Cybermen, but ones that make a bit more sense ideally. What better foe to have during the industrial revolution than men of steel without souls?

Black rug things with iron faces.

[Jade Falcon]

I wouldn't mind seeing stories with more 18th century Cybermen, but ones that make a bit more sense ideally. What better foe to have during the industrial revolution than men of steel without souls?

Err...don't you mean 19th Century?

[PREDATOR490]

Pretty decent effects wise but otherwise it is was pretty standalone-ish.
I would have said this episode would create a perfect chance to catipult into a new season arc with the Cybermen but that isnt going to happen anytime soon I expect.

As for the 'Cyber-bot', Doctor Who has mentioned several times the future is in 'flux' or whatever. I distinctly remember it being mentioned to Rose in the first season with those Gas-Ghosties.
It went something-like:

Rose: 'We know these things dont get through, dead people dont walk around London in the future - blah blah'
Doctor: 'The future can change just like that -snaps fingers-'

I cant remember it in full but I think I got the jist of it.

Regardless, the Doctor's travels should be re-writing events every single time he steps out of the TARDIS so in that case a big robot trashing up London CAN be the spawn point for setting up a new 'future' where this event is referenced in history. Although, I guess we can just go with the age-old Doctor Who explanation of it being one massive giant pre-destination paradox where this event caused the future we know to happen and is mentioned off-hand.
It isnt like the Doctor has met the Face of Bo and seemingly refused to tell him about the future that awaits or had a secret laugh with Martha Jones about it etc.

Dont even have to go into how much shit could be brought over from the old series events which logically should have made some impact on Doctor Who Earth but all that seems to get waved away by the Time War, yet how come Sarah Jane remembers the Doctor again ?
Wasnt it Sarah Jane that got fucked up by Spiders and the last MEGA-bot rampage ?

**mumbles about fucking time-travel**

The way I see it, the new series started out with a noble intention of reviving Doctor Who into modern times but has simply gotten itself completely fucked due to the changing times. This Time War thing would have made a decent way or starting out with a new slate but now they have brought Sarah Jane and old enemies back they got themselves stuck into a real mess with the entire time-travel concept of the show.

[NecronLord]

Pretty decent effects wise but otherwise it is was pretty standalone-ish.
I would have said this episode would create a perfect chance to catipult into a new season arc with the Cybermen but that isnt going to happen anytime soon I expect.

There is no season in the conventional sense. There's four more 'specials' like this one. Two of those will be a 'two parter.'

Dont even have to go into how much shit could be brought over from the old series events which logically should have made some impact on Doctor Who Earth but all that seems to get waved away by the Time War,

Whatnow? Everything in the old series happened. None of it, for humans, was erased by the Time War. There's no reason to suspect the Brigadier doesn't remember Rassilon confronting Lord President Borusa on Gallifrey, or his encounters with the daleks.

Sarah Jane is the same - there's never been any suggestion that she has anything but a complete reccolection of her time with the Doctor. I really don't know where you're getting this idea.

The old series was a lot more circumspect about invasions of Earth though.

This Time War thing would have made a decent way or starting out with a new slate but now they have brought Sarah Jane and old enemies back they got themselves stuck into a real mess with the entire time-travel concept of the show.

I don't know where you're getting this.

The Time War destroyed Gallifrey, and the Daleks. Gallifreyan and Dalek history is now inaccessible. Aside from some guff about the Gelth and the Eternals, that's basically it.

It had no impact on humans and other lesser life forms.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Pretty decent effects wise but otherwise it is was pretty standalone-ish.
I would have said this episode would create a perfect chance to catipult into a new season arc with the Cybermen but that isnt going to happen anytime soon I expect.

The Christmas specials are generally watched by a wider audience than normal, I very much doubt that they'll ever be used for anything continuity-heavy like as a set-up for future stories.

[Stark]

Which is a relief, because they're almost always rubbish. There's no improvement in quality so far; if RTD is doing the specials this year, it's likely it'll be another 18 months until we see a good Doctor Who epsiode.

[PREDATOR490]

If Dalek history was changed, or Timelord history in a 'Time War' then how the hell can human/lesser species history remain UNchanged when those encounters rely on the previous two's history ?

This goes from the Doctor's own indication that the future can change with everything he does. In that case, jumping back before he has done things on Earth etc. should have implications for the future both HIS and the greater universe. Having a giant robot walking through London like this episode would seem like a fairly big change unless, once again we get hit with the bullshit of pre-destination paradox or handwavum stupidity.
Logically, IF the Doctor's time traveling DOES effect changes on events then the reckless nature of his traveling should end up altering his own history at some point and it gets more absurd that it hasnt when events like THIS episode occur.

Otherwise, the Doctor was a complete moron with the Gelths. If he thought that gas monsters would suddenly change the future then he surely must realise that it would affect his own past. A world where Sarah Jane is walking around with dead bodies would lead to a WHOLE different past than the one he should have come from which leads to one EPIC paradox.

[Patrick Degan]

Sarah Jane is the same - there's never been any suggestion that she has anything but a complete reccolection of her time with the Doctor. I really don't know where you're getting this idea.

"I thought you died. I waited for you, and you never came and I thought you died."

Sounds to me as if she does not remember meeting the Doctor again on Gallifrey, and she did meet two of him there.

[Patrick Degan]

If Dalek history was changed, or Timelord history in a 'Time War' then how the hell can human/lesser species history remain UNchanged when those encounters rely on the previous two's history ?

Who says human history is unchanged? It was already changed as far back as "The Day Of The Daleks" when their time-based invasion of Earth at the beginning of the 21st century wiped out their invasion of the 22nd century, then changed to something else when the Doctor undid that invasion by preventing the one event which made it possible.

This goes from the Doctor's own indication that the future can change with everything he does. In that case, jumping back before he has done things on Earth etc. should have implications for the future both HIS and the greater universe. Having a giant robot walking through London like this episode would seem like a fairly big change unless, once again we get hit with the bullshit of pre-destination paradox or handwavum stupidity.

That appears not to be the way things work in the Whoniverse, however, as has been observed in the series. Which is why we have three different versions of Dalek history and a multitude of alternate futures for Earth, several of which the Doctor has visited.

As for why giant robots marching around 1850s London is never remembered, it's easy to suppose the Doctor at a later point undoes that as well.

Logically, IF the Doctor's time traveling DOES effect changes on events then the reckless nature of his traveling should end up altering his own history at some point and it gets more absurd that it hasnt when events like THIS episode occur.

At one point in his life ("The Curse Of Fenric"), the Doctor isn't sure if he even has a family at all anymore, so it is possible he is aware that events of his own past have also been altered.

Otherwise, the Doctor was a complete moron with the Gelths. If he thought that gas monsters would suddenly change the future then he surely must realise that it would affect his own past. A world where Sarah Jane is walking around with dead bodies would lead to a WHOLE different past than the one he should have come from which leads to one EPIC paradox.

"Time's in flux. Everything's changing. Your cozy little world could be rewritten... LIKE THAT <snap>". It was established in Chris Eccleston's series that changes and paradoxes in history were occurring because of the events of the Time War and the destruction of Gallifrey. The Time Lords are gone, there's nobody to police the timelines, which is what made that future possible. The Doctor is aware of the possible alteration of his own past from events which occurred before the Time War, as alluded in "The Curse Of Fenric" and "The Keeper Of Traken" in which Adric finds three different versions of the same event in one of the Doctor's old time logs, and he's been to different versions of Earth than ones he interacted with and influenced in his own past. He still remembers those events; only, as a time-aware being, he remembers them now as pasts which might have happened or had happened at one point but not anymore. He'd remember Sarah Jane Smith as a woman who existed once but now never did because the Gelths overran Earth in 1869. Same way he was able to show Sarah and Laurence Scarman a devastated Earth which resulted from Sutekh escaping to destroy the world in 1911.

[Stark]

It's pretty sad to me that a) people don't understand what was made clear in S1 and b) that the writers don't either. The whole 'time lock' thing is an absurd bandaid over a problem that was already solved in S1. I imagine it will get even worse as the series continues.

[Thanas]

I will start of by saying that there was one thing I enjoyed in the episode - the flashbacks.
"Rosita...that's a good name" made me hope that this turned out to be an intelligent episode. The call backs to the previous companions (Rosita=Rose, as well as the story of how she met "her doctor" being the same, John Smith as callback to Martha's shining moments in S3 and "some forget me" being a reference to Donna).

Had they focused on the character work, it would have been a great episode. Tennant acted those parts well, especially when explaining why he didn't travel with companions anymore. "They break your heart" - and that was when I remembered that it is at least his fault that his most important companion of the new series is not around anymore.

Likewise, the rest of the episode seemed logically disconnected and in dire need of a proof writer as well. The same problems that plagued Journey's End are visible here, although less so due to this episode being on a far lesser scale and not being overcrowded with useless characters.

- Cybermen having dreadnoughts and spaceships? Yeah right. Remember these are not the original cybermen (referenced in "Dalek" and looking completely different), so there is no reason they could have had access to plans. Furthermore, wouldn't an original spaceship look more orginal-cybermen-y?
- Cybermen being able to operate Dalek technology. Yeah right. This I believe when a neanderthal cracks NASA's servers and built a Saturn V.
- The Cybermen using children as work force - when they have controllable brutes at their disposal and have the resources to zap people at will...especially when "work force" apparently consisted of shoveling coal and turning switches for ten minutes. Yeah, but they operate Dalek technology and are coal-powered...right. If they can built such a monster, they can also shovel coal for ten minutes.
- The firepower of the Cybermen was pitiful. The giant was firing left and right in rapid succession and at best it set one house on fire with one shot. And that thing was supposed to conquer the earth?
- Furthermore, the plot was completely easy to spot. You immediately noticed that the guy was not the doctor when he pulled out the fake screwdriver and who was not expecting the long talk between the doctor and the villain at the end? YAWN.

Know what makes this even more sad? I watched "Rose" before this. And although "Rose" wasn't the greates premier ever, the drop in quality is noticeable. And I had such high hopes for the new series....

[Big Orange]

More shit for the birds, Thanas, it was good solid fun, a definite improvement over the last two more self-indulgent (albiet servicable) Christmas Specials and almost as good as "The Christmas Invasion" and shows that Russell T. Davies can jot out competent, meaty episodes if he applies care and restraint.

The Cybermen have been out of the loop for over two years so their familiarity has not bred contempt like the Dalek's familiarity has, while Mercy Hartigan was a more fresh and original villain than that manic and pompous old windbag, Davros. It is obvious that the Daleks and Cybermen banished into the Void built up their own respective empires in there, somehow, and possibly had thousands of years of fighting between them (I liked how the Dimension Vault looked so much like a Dalek's casing, while the Cybermen more likely stole the Dalek's very basic software rather than their super advanced hardware, hence why the simple looking data tubes slotted into their chest sockets). The Cybershade were cheapo but had their charm.

The giant Cyberking was a silly idea that kept on the right side of fun and didn't outstay it's welcome (but I doubt we've seen the last of it, or the badguys onboard, if you just saw it being zapped elsewhere instead of being fully destroyed). Of course the plan with using child labor was over complicated and pointlessly ruthless, but worked well enough as a plot contrivance driving the narrative, but the real substance was with the real Doctor and fake Doctor (David Morrissey was convincing and it made a nice change that he was forced to think he was the Doctor instead of being a malignant cherlatan).

[Thanas]

More shit for the birds, Thanas, it was good solid fun, a definite improvement over the last two more self-indulgent (albiet servicable) Christmas Specials and almost as good as "The Christmas Invasion" and shows that Russell T. Davies can jot out competent, meaty episodes if he applies care and restraint.

I love how you are unable to refute any criticism of my posts but continue with your usual nerdrage and granstanding.

The Cybermen have been out of the loop for over two years so their familiarity has not bred contempt like the Dalek's familiarity has

Yeah, right. The Cybermen are not overused...oh wait, they are, considering that they were featured in four whole episodes, including one series finale and featured in Torchwood as well. What, suddenly the other enemies were not applicable anymore?

while Mercy Hartigan was a more fresh and original villain than that manic and pompous old windbag, Davros.

Maniac and pompous...nice, considering that you first wrote that

Davros worked better than I expected and while RTD lays the whizbangs a little too thickly there is more things to like than dislike here.

And pray tell, what was so original in her arc? It is a direct copy of Lumic's arc, with the added twist that she does dominate them due to her mind, not due to design. Every other plot point, including the "talk, last chance, villain dies horribly" has been used countless times. Calling it original is pretty stupid.

It is obvious that the Daleks and Cybermen banished into the Void built up their own respective empires in there, somehow, and possibly had thousands of years of fighting between them (I liked how the Dimension Vault looked so much like a Dalek's casing, while the Cybermen more likely stole the Dalek's very basic software rather than their super advanced hardware, hence why the simple looking data tubes slotted into their chest sockets). The Cybershade were cheapo but had their charm.

This is retarded. If the Daleks and the cybermen fought, the thousands of daleks would have wiped out the thousands of cybermen in one instant. Have you even watched Doomsday? Do you not recognize how outmatched the cybermen are? And how are they going to build empires? What from? The void is a void, idiot.

The giant Cyberking was a silly idea that kept on the right side of fun and didn't outstay it's welcome (but I doubt we've seen the last of it, or the badguys onboard, if you just saw it being zapped elsewhere instead of being fully destroyed).

Yeah, somehow S1 and S2 managed to do that without turning into illogical idiocies. Like firepower discrepancies etc.

Of course the plan with using child labor was over complicated and pointlessly ruthless, but worked well enough as a plot contrivance driving the narrative,

No, you simpleton. It simply was retarded writing. A good writer would have found a way to narrate a plot that does not turn the main villains into laughingstock.

but the real substance was with the real Doctor and fake Doctor (David Morrissey was convincing and it made a nice change that he was forced to think he was the Doctor instead of being a malignant cherlatan).

Yes, David Morrissey's performance was good. Does it save the episode? No.