Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-02-03 11:23am

Suppose G.A. Thrawn decides to take the No-Win scenario test.

Could he beat it on the first try?

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2003-02-03 11:33am

I forgot what the scenario was.

I think it involved sacrificing friendly forces for the sake of the mission.

This is something the Empire understands that needs to be done in certain circumstances.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 11:38am

You have to rescue a damaged transport stranded in the Klingon Neutral Zone, while three (?) K't'inga battlecruisers approach.

If you ignore the KM's distress call, the Klingons destroy it.

If you attempt to rescue the KM, the Klingon ships destroy you and the KM.

If you fire on the Klingons, they'll destroy you, the KM, and your actions will trigger a war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

Thrawn would ignore the distress call.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-03 11:43am

Uh

Thrawn would destroy the Klingons, save the KM, then go on to win the Federation/Klingon War, reducing the Klingons to a "protectorate" state...assuming that the Federation was smart enough to let Thrawn command and, ah, "make slight modifications to" Starfleet.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 11:44am

You're ignoring the conditions of the simulation.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-03 11:49am

You CANNOT win the Kobayashi Maru, everyone ignores this for some odd reason as if there is some magic strategy that could beat those odds. The computer CHEATS in order to win. It's a test of character to see how an officer would react to a no win situation. NOT how they cold beat three klingon cruisers, etc.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 11:52am

It seems some people think "No Win" means "Really Hard".

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-03 11:52am

It is probable should he defeat the 3 ships more would follow.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-03 11:56am

Well yeah...supposedly in one of the books...Scotty did beat the three ships...and preceding waves came.

But given that's it's a no-win situation, yeah the odds would stack until you fail.

Thrawn would obviously lose(unless he used the Kirk/Mitchell method)...but probably rack up a decent score persay kill wise.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2003-02-03 11:56am

Stravo wrote:You CANNOT win the Kobayashi Maru, everyone ignores this for some odd reason as if there is some magic strategy that could beat those odds. The computer CHEATS in order to win. It's a test of character to see how an officer would react to a no win situation. NOT how they cold beat three klingon cruisers, etc.

Exactly, the only way to 'win' is to cheat and reprogram the computer to bypass the conditions of the test.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 12:04pm

Thrawn might be able to destroy at least one battlecruiser, but he would end up getting killed. That is of course assuming Thrawn would even attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, which he wouldn't.

One Constitution cannot win against three K't'ingas.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-03 12:48pm

Thrawn would not take the test in the first place, because it's a stupid test. "Test of character"- sheesh!

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-03 12:52pm

Darth Wong wrote:Thrawn would not take the test in the first place, because it's a stupid test. "Test of character"- sheesh!

Apparently they don't tell you it's a test of character until after you've taken it, though. Seems like a hard secret to keep, but Saavik was apparently surprised that it was designed to be a "no-win" situation.

Of course, since it's a simulation, and the testee knows that he or she isn't in any real danger and that there aren't any real lives at stake, it doesn't even serve its stated purpose very effectively.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-03 12:57pm

Thrawn has never been in a no-win situation so who knows how he'd react. Several times he refused to command missions he knew would be failures.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-03 01:00pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Thrawn has never been in a no-win situation so who knows how he'd react. Several times he refused to command missions he knew would be failures.

"We don't have the numbers for an assault on Coruscant. Such an attack would be both useless and wasteful, and the Empire will therefore not launch one."

I don't know why, but that's always been one of my favorite Thrawn lines.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-03 01:04pm

Mostly I like Thrawn because he understood...no win situations are just that, no win(almost the same reaon I enjoyed the fact Kirk cheated in the Kobayashi Maru).

To put someone under that pretense...for what? So you can see how they function under squirming...it's one thing to design something with high parameters, it's another to basically have them lose intentionally....all you get to see is how they react to their own death and what their reaction is to losing.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-03 01:43pm

Thrawn would likely sit there for a minute or two studying the situation, note the horrifically slanted odds and the lack of solutions, and walk out of the simulation without a word. When Pelleaon asks why he forfeited, he'd explain to his trusted Captain.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-03 02:22pm

Why doens't anyone in the KM try broadcasting their intentions to the Klingons BEFORE entering the neutral zone? Do the Klingons begin jamming transmissions at the start of the scenario or something?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-03 02:31pm

Certainly according to a book based around it (yes I know they are non official, but still) if you beat the first three six more approach. then twelve then twenty four then fourty eight etc. etc.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-03 02:32pm

Actually, at least in the TWOK novelization its pretty clear that the KM is actually a decoy by the Klingons to lure a Federation ship into the Neutral zone.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-03 02:44pm

Darth Servo wrote:Why doens't anyone in the KM try broadcasting their intentions to the Klingons BEFORE entering the neutral zone? Do the Klingons begin jamming transmissions at the start of the scenario or something?

I daresay that at least some of the cadets in the test would try.

That does not, however, mean that the simulated Klingons would respond. If they did, they would either warn the Federation ship to stay the hell out of the Neutral Zone or invite them to enter on their rescue mission and then attack them anyway.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 02:47pm

I think the conditions are that the simulated K't'ingas remain silent and always attack.

How would Starfleet grade a cadet that decided to ignore the call from the Kobayashi Maru once informed of the conditions they would face?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2003-02-03 03:26pm

That's a good question, Spanky. I would hope they give the cadet a passing grade for not risking his ship to rescue the transport. Even if the cadet is disobeying orders, its understandable given the circumstances.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-03 03:54pm

Only in Star Trek are military training exercises conducted exclusively for the purpose of character-building. I'm surprised they don't show cadets sitting around in a big circle doing team-building exercises with some California self-help guru egging them on.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-03 03:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:Only in Star Trek are military training exercises conducted exclusively for the purpose of character-building. I'm surprised they don't show cadets sitting around in a big circle doing team-building exercises with some California self-help guru egging them on.

They're based in San Fran, why do you think they don't have the guru's there?

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Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

Hmmmm