Semi-Viable Mecha Idea? [cont']

[FOG3]

Anyone have any objection to a Landmate type design for use in the riot police and certain peacekeeper roles? Strong enough you don't have to worry about the occassional obsessive body builder, armored enough to protect against a smuggled in gun or thrown rock, and with enough stuff between you and its skin that the occassional guy with a molotov isn't that big of a concern. Not to mention you can add A/C and or a heater to help them keep sharp when the weather isn't so nice.

Obviously not going to stand up to RPGs, but they tend to be a little harder to conceal.

[open_sketchbook]

I never tried to defend my mecha as plausible for real life application, just, mecha are awesome, and if I want to include them, I'll try to do so in a fashion that is as plausible as I can manage.

[Sarevok]

Anyone have any objection to a Landmate type design for use in the riot police and certain peacekeeper roles? Strong enough you don't have to worry about the occassional obsessive body builder, armored enough to protect against a smuggled in gun or thrown rock, and with enough stuff between you and its skin that the occassional guy with a molotov isn't that big of a concern. Not to mention you can add A/C and or a heater to help them keep sharp when the weather isn't so nice.

Obviously not going to stand up to RPGs, but they tend to be a little harder to conceal.

That's what police armored vehicles are for.

Besides only police departments in the world that could consider mechs are in Japan.

[FOG3]

Anyone have any objection to a Landmate type design for use in the riot police and certain peacekeeper roles? Strong enough you don't have to worry about the occassional obsessive body builder, armored enough to protect against a smuggled in gun or thrown rock, and with enough stuff between you and its skin that the occassional guy with a molotov isn't that big of a concern. Not to mention you can add A/C and or a heater to help them keep sharp when the weather isn't so nice.

Obviously not going to stand up to RPGs, but they tend to be a little harder to conceal.

That's what police armored vehicles are for.

I'm just not seeing how that works. Hiding in AFVs is not viable, nor is blasting everything. The ability to use finesse while not being something people can mess with easily is a quality that has value. A Landmate type suit would have that, I don't see how a normal vehicle would.

Now in practice larger scale factors associated with things like public opinion and perception might not make it quite as nice an idea, but it is a viable niche role.

Besides only police departments in the world that could consider mechs are in Japan.

Hey, the thread wants a role mechs would be good for, not something we're liable to do in ten years.

[Samuel]

Anyone have any objection to a Landmate type design for use in the riot police and certain peacekeeper roles? Strong enough you don't have to worry about the occassional obsessive body builder, armored enough to protect against a smuggled in gun or thrown rock, and with enough stuff between you and its skin that the occassional guy with a molotov isn't that big of a concern. Not to mention you can add A/C and or a heater to help them keep sharp when the weather isn't so nice.

Obviously not going to stand up to RPGs, but they tend to be a little harder to conceal.

That's what police armored vehicles are for.

Besides only police departments in the world that could consider mechs are in Japan.

I read that anime series.

Shitty city-planning. Imagine a space station that over the course of generation, grows bigger, almost organically since people are attaching modules and building more bits and expanding the area and stuff - like an urban sprawl, but in space. Eventually it becomes such a messy disorganized place.

Think of the "mecha" as more of a spaceship with arms and legs to help it navigate the tighter confines of that mess.

I don't think that would work. Spacestations need planning for air and plumbing.

[TheMuffinKing]

I'm just not seeing how that works. Hiding in AFVs is not viable, nor is blasting everything. The ability to use finesse while not being something people can mess with easily is a quality that has value. A Landmate type suit would have that, I don't see how a normal vehicle would.

Now in practice larger scale factors associated with things like public opinion and perception might not make it quite as nice an idea, but it is a viable niche role.

How is hiding in AFVs not viable? If we are talking about police riot control vehicles, they are very well armored, equipped with water cannon in addition to less lethal capable weapons, and have debris plows. A great deal of finesse can be exercised from within a safe armored vehicle and its armor, weight, and intimidation value are all things that can't be denied.

Riot vehicles are cheaper, less complex, and easier to use than mechs as we know them. If we had space riots, than we will have space riot trucks, with anti-grav wheels, and rockets, and manipulator arms, and chainsaws!

[Shroom Man 777]

See, if that space riot trucks had FOUR manipulator arms positioned strategically, it could be a mecha! And if its chainsaw was shaped like a samurai sword, it would be an gungan!

[Sky Captain]

If technological problems regarding mecha are solved and building one is not too difficult I think mecha could find use as a recreational vehicle for rich people. Imagine how awesome it would be to climb into one and go on a rampage through some junkyard where you can grab and demolish old cars, caravans and other stuff. Lot of people would do that if possible.

Regarding riot control large intimidating mecha would be good tool for some oppressive dictator to keep populace under foot. Not many people would want to revolt and overthrow dictator if they knew going into streets mean facing 6 m tall walking monsters.

[Sarevok]

Regarding riot control large intimidating mecha would be good tool for some oppressive dictator to keep populace under foot. Not many people would want to revolt and overthrow dictator if they knew going into streets mean facing 6 m tall walking monsters.

Having witnessed how easily mobs destroy vehicles in riots I think a mecha would be counterproductive. It would be a magnet for every crude weaponry the street could muster and once the crowd realizes how easily it is brought down they would go ecstatic with new found morale boost.

[Venator]

I ended up working them into the universe I originally proposed by stating that they only saw limited human use by specially-engineered pilots, as a test program... with limited success.

The race that conquered humanity adopted them because they have fast enough reflexes to backflip around incoming anti-tank missiles. Yeah, I know, it's textbook wank.

See, if that space riot trucks had FOUR manipulator arms positioned strategically, it could be a mecha! And if its chainsaw was shaped like a samurai sword, it would be an gungan!

A robotic, Samurai version of Jar Jar Binks ?

[Shroom Man 777]

I like calling gundams gungans. It's funny.

A rationalization for the presence of chainsaw samurais and laser swords could be the need of our hypothetical close-quarters-limbed-spacestation-fighting-vehicle to breech all sorts of obstacles inside the confusing interiors of space hulks. Hatches could be sealed and booby-trapped, so the machines would have to melt holes through hulls or the joints of structures, or cut through electric cabling the bad guys have purposely loosened to tangle enemy vehicles and stuff.

Yeah, I like the idea of it. It won't be a mecha, but a really ugly and really utilitarian tiny fighting ship with maneuvering thrusters and missiles and lasers and stuff, but with an additional four limbs armed with claws, grapples, more thrusters, and cutting tools and other implements to maneuver inside the crammed confines of obscene space habitats.

Imagine those deep sea submersibles and give it clawed General Grievous arms!

[FOG3]

I'm just not seeing how that works. Hiding in AFVs is not viable, nor is blasting everything. The ability to use finesse while not being something people can mess with easily is a quality that has value. A Landmate type suit would have that, I don't see how a normal vehicle would.

Now in practice larger scale factors associated with things like public opinion and perception might not make it quite as nice an idea, but it is a viable niche role.

How is hiding in AFVs not viable? If we are talking about police riot control vehicles, they are very well armored, equipped with water cannon in addition to less lethal capable weapons, and have debris plows. A great deal of finesse can be exercised from within a safe armored vehicle and its armor, weight, and intimidation value are all things that can't be denied.

For starters dismounts that are not dismounted just add to the body count if a vehicle goes up, as respected by the military doctrine of all the countries that had to learn that the hard way. Plus dismounts that are not dismounted are not helping to actively regulate the crowd. Dismounts that are dismounted in this case have to be highly visible thus throwing away infantry's main surviveability advantage. They cannot magically teleport to the AFV the second someone decides to try a Molotov or otherwise, and even if they could doing so would prevent them from maintaining order with all but the most indescriminate "less then lethals."

I'm talking an augmented version of the shield wall and people dealing with the crowd, in mechs in the 7' to 10' range, which vehicles have nothing to do with as far as I'm aware. A pure power armor isn't quite as good with putting up with the common potential threats of thrown rocks, Molotovs, and otherwise. Can they be destroyed? Sure, so can MBTs, the point is to prevent the situation from getting out of hand, which an augmented version and people planted in the crowd would help to facilitate.

[Kartr_Kana]

What about using mecha as light armor support for mountain troops? In terrain to steep or rocky for tracked/wheeled vehicles a mech should be able to step on or over such obstacles. Since the enemies vehicles also can't traverse said terrain you wouldn't have to worry about going head to head with tanks. You're biggest worries would be enemy air assets and Javelin or RPG style weapons.

Use sort of like a one/two man Humvee mounted with recoilless rifles or missiles and crew served weapons. It'd form a QRF capable of bring heavy (relatively) fire support to troops that need it.

[Darth Ruinus]

What about using mecha as light armor support for mountain troops? In terrain to steep or rocky for tracked/wheeled vehicles a mech should be able to step on or over such obstacles. Since the enemies vehicles also can't traverse said terrain you wouldn't have to worry about going head to head with tanks. You're biggest worries would be enemy air assets and Javelin or RPG style weapons.

Use sort of like a one/two man Humvee mounted with recoilless rifles or missiles and crew served weapons. It'd form a QRF capable of bring heavy (relatively) fire support to troops that need it.

What if your expensive mecha unit falls over and off the mountain? If the terrain is steep or rocky, the thing (if it is heavy enough) could easily lose its footing. That, and like you said, you wouldn't have to worry about other tanks, but you would have to worry about other mechs.

[TheMuffinKing]

For starters dismounts that are not dismounted just add to the body count if a vehicle goes up, as respected by the military doctrine of all the countries that had to learn that the hard way. Plus dismounts that are not dismounted are not helping to actively regulate the crowd. Dismounts that are dismounted in this case have to be highly visible thus throwing away infantry's main surviveability advantage. They cannot magically teleport to the AFV the second someone decides to try a Molotov or otherwise, and even if they could doing so would prevent them from maintaining order with all but the most indescriminate "less then lethals."

I'm talking an augmented version of the shield wall and people dealing with the crowd, in mechs in the 7' to 10' range, which vehicles have nothing to do with as far as I'm aware. A pure power armor isn't quite as good with putting up with the common potential threats of thrown rocks, Molotovs, and otherwise. Can they be destroyed? Sure, so can MBTs, the point is to prevent the situation from getting out of hand, which an augmented version and people planted in the crowd would help to facilitate.

Riot vehicles, when deployed for a riot, won't be containing many troops, other than the crew. Riot trucks and such act to butress the shield wall formed by riot troops and in any case riot troops are typically well protected by their riot gear. Riot troops have to be visible, they are there to enforce the law and intimidate rioters and could not do their job from within a riot vehicle anyways. As for Molotov cocktails and rocks and what not, riot troops are trained to deal with those threats, a glimpse of which can be seen here: British Riot Training.

Using a single mecha, or even a line of mecha is going to be expensive, even if only to bolster riot troops. Police and soldiers trained and equipped to handle riots, with additional vehicular support (both specialized and standard, not including mecha) are a better choice. With "standard" riot control forces you cover a larger area, less expensively, and more effectively.

An anime by the name of "Gasaraki" is a great example of what I think you are describing. It is kind of dry though.

[Beowulf]

Arms can be used to hold onto the surroundings, what are legs going to do?

For a space station? Stick magnets on the bottom of it's feet, and add some more thrusters both in the feet and smaller maneuvering thrusters in the legs.

Magnets on the feet won't do anything the arms can't do better. Adding thrusters in the feet requires that you now need to have the legs be built to withstand the thrust of the rockets, which is non-trivial at serious thrust levels. Also, it makes the flight control significantly more complicated (read $$$$).

[Formless]

Shroomy, you wouldn't be thinking by any chance of the Longeshoreman Of The Apocalypse would you?

Coincidentally, the same comic provides another alternative: non-human infantry. And not just in the form of the titular seargent Shlock and his unit of aliens, but also genetically uplifted earth species like elephants and gorillas. Elephants are big, can think for themselves, and can be loaded into powered armor to make a soldier capable of carrying fearsome firepower. And most of the engineering has been done for you, by nature. All you need to do is figure out how to give them prehensile arms of some kind that can manipulate weapons. Any takers?

[Kartr_Kana]

What if your expensive mecha unit falls over and off the mountain? If the terrain is steep or rocky, the thing (if it is heavy enough) could easily lose its footing.

Well don't make it that heavy. Keep the body low with wide feet set fairly far apart.

That, and like you said, you wouldn't have to worry about other tanks, but you would have to worry about other mechs.

If your enemy has the ability to build mechs wouldn't it be a good idea to have you own to counter him?

You'd probably also need some sort of jet pack or something that would allow it to "jump" cliff faces since it wouldn't be able to scale them like infantry would.

[TheMuffinKing]

What if your expensive mecha unit falls over and off the mountain? If the terrain is steep or rocky, the thing (if it is heavy enough) could easily lose its footing.

Well don't make it that heavy. Keep the body low with wide feet set fairly far apart.

That, and like you said, you wouldn't have to worry about other tanks, but you would have to worry about other mechs.

If your enemy has the ability to build mechs wouldn't it be a good idea to have you own to counter him?

You'd probably also need some sort of jet pack or something that would allow it to "jump" cliff faces since it wouldn't be able to scale them like infantry would.

If an enemy began using mechs, I would counter that with issuing more man-portable missiles and by using airpower when and where available.

A low bodied wide legged mech seems like a good idea if you were determined to utilize mechs in that environment. I would expand upon this idea and have a mech designed with at least four legs for added stability, weight distribution, and traction.

[Kartr_Kana]

If an enemy began using mechs, I would counter that with issuing more man-portable missiles and by using airpower when and where available.

Have you ever had to carry a man-portable missile through the mountains? It's a bitch and we were carrying MK153 SMAWs which are unguided light weight rocket launchers. A javelin or TOW system is much heavier and harder to transport. That's my whole reason for using mecha in mountain terrain. They'd give you the ability carry crew serves and heavier faster, over longer distance, more ammunition and more protection for the crew.

Air support isn't going to be available 100% of the time, especially if you don't have complete control of the air. Also low fly air craft are vulnerable to shoulder fired rockets.

The only problem I have with a four legged mech is, well it's actually twofold. First it's going to be harder to give it some kind of jumping ability. This means it's SOL if there's a cliff face in it's path. Second by increasing it's length you are decreasing the maximum grade it can climb (I'm not 100% sure about this). The advantage a bipedal mech has is that it can go pretty much anywhere a man can go.

[TheMuffinKing]

If an enemy began using mechs, I would counter that with issuing more man-portable missiles and by using airpower when and where available.

Have you ever had to carry a man-portable missile through the mountains? It's a bitch and we were carrying MK153 SMAWs which are unguided light weight rocket launchers. A javelin or TOW system is much heavier and harder to transport. That's my whole reason for using mecha in mountain terrain. They'd give you the ability carry crew serves and heavier faster, over longer distance, more ammunition and more protection for the crew.

Air support isn't going to be available 100% of the time, especially if you don't have complete control of the air. Also low fly air craft are vulnerable to shoulder fired rockets.

The only problem I have with a four legged mech is, well it's actually twofold. First it's going to be harder to give it some kind of jumping ability. This means it's SOL if there's a cliff face in it's path. Second by increasing it's length you are decreasing the maximum grade it can climb (I'm not 100% sure about this). The advantage a bipedal mech has is that it can go pretty much anywhere a man can go.

To clarify, and sorry for going off topic, but are we talking about something like a Gundam style mech, or something less fantastic like Patlabor?

If the former, I agree with you, if the latter then those are much easier to destroy and would probably fall prey to all manner of IED's, rockets, and what not.

[Commander 598]

If an enemy began using mechs, I would counter that with issuing more man-portable missiles and by using airpower when and where available.

Have you ever had to carry a man-portable missile through the mountains? It's a bitch and we were carrying MK153 SMAWs which are unguided light weight rocket launchers. A javelin or TOW system is much heavier and harder to transport. That's my whole reason for using mecha in mountain terrain. They'd give you the ability carry crew serves and heavier faster, over longer distance, more ammunition and more protection for the crew.

Air support isn't going to be available 100% of the time, especially if you don't have complete control of the air. Also low fly air craft are vulnerable to shoulder fired rockets.

The only problem I have with a four legged mech is, well it's actually twofold. First it's going to be harder to give it some kind of jumping ability. This means it's SOL if there's a cliff face in it's path. Second by increasing it's length you are decreasing the maximum grade it can climb (I'm not 100% sure about this). The advantage a bipedal mech has is that it can go pretty much anywhere a man can go.

To clarify, and sorry for going off topic, but are we talking about something like a Gundam style mech, or something less fantastic like Patlabor?

If the former, I agree with you, if the latter then those are much easier to destroy and would probably fall prey to all manner of IED's, rockets, and what not.

A good IED would ruin a [nongundam] Gundam mech's day just as easily. Furthermore they're even bigger targets for rockets.

[Kartr_Kana]

I'm not familiar with Gundam or Patlabor. I was thinking something along the lines of C&C3's Wolverine. As we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan Humvee's are vulnerable to "all manner of IED's, Rockets and what not". They still get used because the benefits of being able to rapidly transport crew-served weapons outweighs the risk.

[Darth Ruinus]

Wait, so you want things like this being employed in steep terrain, equipped with jetpacks?

It sounds easier to just make the infantry carry weapons themselves, even if they are heavy. Cheaper too.

[TheMuffinKing]

I'm not familiar with Gundam or Patlabor. I was thinking something along the lines of C&C3's Wolverine. As we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan Humvee's are vulnerable to "all manner of IED's, Rockets and what not". They still get used because the benefits of being able to rapidly transport crew-served weapons outweighs the risk.

Ahh I see, I used Gundam because most of those mechs seem to fly, mitigating the effectiveness of IED's and man portable missiles. Patlabor is a great series and I highly recommend it, the series focuses on mechs that seem less fantastic than other anime's and focus on the unique roles the labors fill. As for the wolverine, isn't that lightly armored? From what I've seen, and I'm not an expert on them, they seem vulnerable to heavy machine guns and RPGs. As for putting a jetpack or similar on them, and maybe this deviates too far from the discussion, how would they be supported upon landing on their objective?

As for using Humvees, what is your opinion on using a smaller tank such as and M8 (if available) or something like a Chinese type 69, basically a scaled down t-54 knockoff?