Reverse-Engineering

[Bilbo]

We all read about it in countless science fiction. It was the basis for Terminator in T2 and it is a Trekkie golden halo to beating the Empire. Grab advanced technology and reverse it till you can build your own.

But is it really possible? Can you reverse engineer any real technology from a more advanced society?

Lets try it this way. My wife just got an Ipod Touch for Christmas. If I have a time machine how far back can I send that Ipod touch and have the America that receives it actually be able to learn anything about it?

I am thinking not very far. If you send it to the age before USB then it will only last until the internal battery runs out even if I send the cord. So that limits how far back it can go. But how about the components.

Opinions? How far back in time do you think an Ipod Touch could be sent and actually help accelerate the society technologically.

[starslayer]

Not very far. You'd keep it going very easily because you could analyze the battery to see what voltage it puts out and how its contacts work, and then rig up a power supply connected to the wall or some other effectively inexhaustible source. You'd probably be able to do that from about the 30's and 40's, although getting the required tolerances could be tricky (I await correction from a resident electronics expert). As for actually getting something from it besides just being able to keep it going? Almost certainly not before the invention of the integrated circuit, and certainly not before the invention of the transistor (or maybe the vacuum tube; I'm not sure).

As for any random piece of technology, at the very least the civilization must understand the physics behind it. Yes, I know you can do something like crudely copy a gun relatively easily even in a primitive environment, but once things start to get very complex, it takes years of R&D effort to even understand how the device works, much less be able to successfully build the machinery to build a functional copy. Therefore, the conceit of being able to reverse engineer just about anything in a reasonable amount of time is utter bullshit.

[Bilbo]

I doubt you could rig up a powersupply anywhere near that early. For one the Ipod uses a USB plug for power. Also its a sealed unit. Trying to open it odds are you will destroy the unit.

[starslayer]

It uses the USB for charging the battery, dude. If you had to keep it connected to your computer to use it at all, no one would buy it. I'm saying take the battery out completely. It being a sealed unit is more problematic, but not impossible to surmount if you're careful. See here.

[Bilbo]

It uses the USB for charging the battery, dude. If you had to keep it connected to your computer to use it at all, no one would buy it. I'm saying take the battery out completely. It being a sealed unit is more problematic, but not impossible to surmount if you're careful. See here.

Not shit Sherlock. Your going to tell me that a 40's era society is going to carefully open the case. Properly identify the battery and wire in a replacement or direct voltage and run the thing without destroying it or burning it out?

[starslayer]

I concede that "probably" is not the word I should have used in my first post; change that to "might". But what do you think they're going to do? Bang on it with a hammer? Try to open it with a large chisel? People could do delicate work back then, and I doubt the first thing 1940's engineers would do when they found something like that is be rough with it. More than likely, they'd carefully examine it first, looking for likely places it could be opened, before trying anything.

Besides, as you can see in the link, the wires appear to be labeled. The battery itself definitely is, not to mention easily identifiable as a battery (and if they weren't sure, they could hook it up to something else and easily see it gives off DC). The contact setup would give them trouble, and figuring out the color codes would indeed be problematic. You're right in that they'd most likely need a lucky guess, but they may not; I'm not up to speed on the methods of electricians from that time. Although, since you specified the US, the wire color codes may not have changed since the 40's. Whatever they might do, I'm sure they would be extremely careful throughout this whole process; you don't just rip open the only example of something new and incredible you have and stick random crap in it.

[Starglider]

If you send it to the age before USB then it will only last until the internal battery runs out even if I send the cord. So that limits how far back it can go.

Umm, no. It will simply be disassembled, the battery voltage noted and an appropriate power supply connected. I could've done that when I was 10 years old.

If I have a time machine how far back can I send that Ipod touch and have the America that receives it actually be able to learn anything about it?

You could send it back to the 1960s and they'd understand it just fine - scanning electron microscopes were already powerful enough to analyse the processor design. The problem is, just having the chips doesn't tell you all that much about the tools and processes that were used to manufacture it. The logic and processor design concepts would be considered neat but inapplicable to contemporary technology due to the massive difference in feature size (state of the art ICs were still in the tens of transistors range in the early 60s). It wouldn't be until about the early 90s that the IC design concepts would be useful. Reverse engineering the software wouldn't be possible until the late 80s at the earliest and again you wouldn't gain all that much from it - the advanced audio and video compression codecs would get the compsci people very excited, but to be practical they require a level of computing power that isn't available until the late 90s at best. So realistically you could only shave a few years off the original timeline for processor and codec development. LCDs are very similar; it'd be nice to know that such advanced LCDs are possible, but having one doesn't tell you much about how it was produced (in bulk, cheaply), so it won't really give you more than a few years head start.

Whether you could send it back further (e.g. to 1930) and have people figure out transistors earlier is more debatable - I don't know what discrete components are present on that PCB, but I'd guess that even a chemical analysis of the chips would point physicists in the right general direction. Transistors in 1935 would have a significant (though not major) impact on WW2. Certainly it would be pointless sending it back much earlier.

Note that capturing a military piece of equipment with service manuals/databases and maintenance kits is a lot more valuable than just a random specimen. If you can capture textbooks, specifications and people to interrogate on how it works all the better, but the real bottleneck is still production capability. It generally takes tools to make the tools to make the tools, so for really major leaps you're probably going to have to capture whole enemy factories. Of course some sci-fi tech like nanoassemblers and replicators may change the equation.

[Bilbo]

If you send it to the age before USB then it will only last until the internal battery runs out even if I send the cord. So that limits how far back it can go.

Umm, no. It will simply be disassembled, the battery voltage noted and an appropriate power supply connected. I could've done that when I was 10 years old.

You were not working with tech more advanced than what you had. Your also assuming that the voltage requirement is written on the board or on the battery itself. I bet you are more likely to fry it than properly power it.

But really would you gain anything from having it? Would there be any technological leaps? Probably not and this is a simple hand held piece of consumer electronics.

[Bilbo]

You could send it back to the 1960s and they'd understand it just fine - scanning electron microscopes were already powerful enough to analyse the processor design.

This is assuming you can get the cover layer off the processor to see the stuff inside. This is assuming you know what you are looking to know what is and isnt a processor in there.

[Stark]

You were not working with tech more advanced than what you had. Your also assuming that the voltage requirement is written on the board or on the battery itself. I bet you are more likely to fry it than properly power it.

But really would you gain anything from having it? Would there be any technological leaps? Probably not and this is a simple hand held piece of consumer electronics.

Do you know how old the voltmeter is, and how easy it is to build one? As has been said, the question is tolerances with regard to the power delivered (I have no idea what transformer tech was like in the 30s) but they could certainly identify and measure the battery.

The idea that opening an iPod destroys it is so utterly absurd that it makes me question your objectivity. Are you saying they're going to use pins and sledges to work with a possibly unique item? JUST LIKE WITH MAGNETIC MINES LOL.

[Starglider]

You were not working with tech more advanced than what you had. Your also assuming that the voltage requirement is written on the board or on the battery itself.

No, it's called a voltmeter you moron. Even if the battery pack was completely dead you could either guess from the cell count and the chemistry or more likely start with a very low voltage and gradually step it up until the device worked reliably.

I bet you are more likely to fry it than properly power it.

Do you have any experience with electronics at all? I'm hardly an electronic engineer but at least I'm a keen hobbyist.

But really would you gain anything from having it? Would there be any technological leaps?

Didn't I just answer that fucking question in my earlier post?

Probably not and this is a simple hand held piece of consumer electronics.

Consumer electronics are one of the worst possible things you could send back, particularly sealed and minaturised ones. If you sent it back to the 1960s it's quite likely that the formulation of the plastics in the case would be of more immediate use than the software and electronics, even if the later were fully understoof.

[Starglider]

Ok, now I want to throttle you with your own ignorance, well done.

This is assuming you can get the cover layer off the processor to see the stuff inside. This is assuming you know what you are looking to know what is and isnt a processor in there.

You seem to be assuming that the device falls into the hands of someone as moronic as yourself, whereas I am assuming that it falls into the hands of a government or large corporation. Experts at the top of their fields will be assigned to dissect the device very slowly and carefully, with the best tools available, documenting and analysing everything as they go. This is something that is quite obviously unique on earth, and answering the questions about how and why it arrived will be at least as important as replicating the technology. This may be impossible of course but thoroughly reverse engineering the device is the best way to try and answer them.

[sketerpot]

You were not working with tech more advanced than what you had. Your also assuming that the voltage requirement is written on the board or on the battery itself.

No, it's called a voltmeter you moron. Even if the battery pack was completely dead you could either guess from the cell count and the chemistry or more likely start with a very low voltage and gradually step it up until the device worked reliably.

I bet the iPod is designed to handle exactly this situation: start out with a low voltage then ramp it up. A voltage supervisor will keep the fancy chips in reset until the supply voltage reaches levels they can work with. Maxim has a whole section of these chips.

[Bilbo]

Ok, now I want to throttle you with your own ignorance, well done.

This is assuming you can get the cover layer off the processor to see the stuff inside. This is assuming you know what you are looking to know what is and isnt a processor in there.

You seem to be assuming that the device falls into the hands of someone as moronic as yourself, whereas I am assuming that it falls into the hands of a government or large corporation. Experts at the top of their fields will be assigned to dissect the device very slowly and carefully, with the best tools available, documenting and analysing everything as they go. This is something that is quite obviously unique on earth, and answering the questions about how and why it arrived will be at least as important as replicating the technology. This may be impossible of course but thoroughly reverse engineering the device is the best way to try and answer them.

Really? I am holding one in my hand right now and am wondering how you plan on opening this here Ipod. As far as I can tell its a two piece item, screen fitting into the other half shell.

But assume the cover comes off. Now assume that you power it forever.

I am really more curious about what you could learn from it. Your only sending it back about 40 years and it becomes very iffy. Go even 10 or 20 years more and your talking impossible to decipher.

With this in mind what if we today received something from 100 years in the future. What could you really learn.

[Samuel]

I am really more curious about what you could learn from it. Your only sending it back about 40 years and it becomes very iffy. Go even 10 or 20 years more and your talking impossible to decipher.

With this in mind what if we today received something from 100 years in the future. What could you really learn.

First, that time travel is both possible and the United States (or just humanity) still exists in the future. Also, Taiwan is important.

Even if they can't make it work, it provides a goal to work towards and shows that it is possible to make it.

[starslayer]

Bilbo, did you even look at the link I posted? That tells you how to open it, what everything is, etc. Granted, whoever it got sent back to doesn't have that, but it's not impossible to open (in fact, it doesn't even seem to be that hard). And guys, they don't even need a voltmeter to figure out what the battery outputs; those nice big letters saying "+3.7V" should be obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with electricity itself, much less electronics. They wouldn't have to guess at the chemistry, either; the flipside of the battery says "Li-ion polymer." Any engineer or scientist would immediately recognize that meant the battery was driven by lithium ions in some sort of polymer, even if he had no idea how that might be done.

Transformers have been known and developed since the mid-19th century; the idea for a transistor appeared in 1920's and 30's, even though the first one wouldn't be built for a while. Vacuum tubes perform the exact same function, they're just not solid state devices. The base electronics of the iPod are just not that complicated, even though certain devices inside it are, and engineers of the 40's would probably be able to figure them out given enough time. Starglider has detailed how the inner workings of the ICs and software might be used.

Now, looking at something from 100 years in the future, say, this gets much harder. Assuming it's from Earth, then the language (spoken, not programming) and engineering nomenclature and symbols will not have changed much, and the basic functions would likely be readily apparent. Upon careful disassembly and examination, we might be able to determine if it used quantum computing or some other thing that isn't an IC, and if it does contain transistor driven ICs, those'll be easy to figure out. If it uses some new principle of physics that hasn't yet been discovered, we're SOL. Likewise if engineering techniques have changed dramatically. Thus, even if we can figure out how the software is written, the circuits are wired, the materials are put together, etc., we still need to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools... to build the thing, and all we'll have saved ourselves is some time once we advance enough to actually be able to replicate the damned thing, since we don't have to make the final advances that made the device originally possible.

Now, some choice barbs:

Really? I am holding one in my hand right now and am wondering how you plan on opening this here Ipod. As far as I can tell its a two piece item, screen fitting into the other half shell.

You still don't get it, do you? Top engineers and scientists tend to be able to figure out how things go together rather quickly, and also on how to get them apart delicately and gingerly. To take an example from optics, we can now use a machine to "grind" a mirror (I'll explain why I put grind in quotation marks if anyone's interested) to any precision we want. Opticians of the past could do this too, though it was painstaking work, and actually involved grinding away at the mirror's surface with finer and finer grit. For the very large mirrors, such as the one in the 200-inch Hale telescope, eventually you got to a stage where you had to be absolutely perfect in the curvature of your mirror (to take a modern example, the HST's images were blurry because the mirror had the wrong curvature by a millionth of an inch). This was achieved by gently rubbing your finger once against the glass in a particular spot, taking just a few atoms off with your hand. Could you or I do that? Probably not. But the opticians could. And I know a guy who can balance optical systems within microns just by using a few simple tools (no, I'm not kidding).

This can all be summed very simply in the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you can't do it or imagine doing it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Junghalli]

Really? I am holding one in my hand right now and am wondering how you plan on opening this here Ipod. As far as I can tell its a two piece item, screen fitting into the other half shell.

As a nonexpert I imagine you'd probably try to find a way to cut open the plastic shell while minimizing the chance of damaging the stuff inside. Very carefully, in other words.

[General Zod]

Really? I am holding one in my hand right now and am wondering how you plan on opening this here Ipod. As far as I can tell its a two piece item, screen fitting into the other half shell.

As a nonexpert I imagine you'd probably try to find a way to cut open the plastic shell while minimizing the chance of damaging the stuff inside. Very carefully, in other words.

As a nonexpert I could probably pry it open and leave it relatively intact with a couple tiny flathead screwdrivers and a clamp to hold it down. It doesn't seem terribly difficult.

[Zixinus]

Another interesting idea. Send back M1911 or some similar weapon into the 1600's, into the hands of a master canon- or musket-maker and they'll be able to learn from it. What would they be able to learn from it is the real question.

My guesses:
- the idea of bullets and possibly primers.
- the idea that you can fire balls in rapid succession.
- Rifling, definitely. Though, its possible that they know of it already.
- I wouldn't past them to be able to figure out the internal mechanisms of it.

Would they be able to replicate it? Hardly. Perhaps certain elements, but it would be impossible to replicate the weapon. It is also questionable whether they can even utilise it. Even if they could, its another question whether it would make a difference. Why? They likely will not have the materials present to do so. The internals of a M1911 is simplified clockwork essentially, and you need certain levels of metal, stainless steel, with good enough working to make it functional. Also, they could only use black powder, a inferior version than what any .45 ACP bullet uses today.

So, reverse-engineering is one thing, its another to utilise what you learned.

[Starglider]

Another interesting idea. Send back M1911 or some similar weapon into the 1600's, into the hands of a master canon- or musket-maker and they'll be able to learn from it. What would they be able to learn from it is the real question.

The absolute number of years isn't the issue. You could send a medieval trebuchet back 2000 years to ancient Greece and they'd quickly be able to replicate it (and probably would, for the increased range and payload). The most important things for technological artefacts are the quantum leaps in our capabilities that occurred in the renaissance (scientific method), late industrial revolution (relatively precise manufacturing capability) and the 1930s-40s (precision analytics; electron microscopes, mass spectrometry, oscilliscopes, computers).

Complete systems have far more potential than isolated tools anyway. I guarentee that if you sent say a complete but uncrewed Nimitz class carrier back to the Thames Estuary in 1870 you'd see some interesting advances. Of course a few engineers would probably die of radiation poisoning but that serves them right for ignoring the warnings.

[Sky Captain]

I think the same question can be asked those conspiracy theorists who claim US government have recovered crashed alien spacecraft and are reverse engineering alien technology.

Imagine situation when a spacecraft from other civilization technologically centuries or millennia ahead of us crashes on Earth. It would probably work based on scientific principles we currently do not understand (unknown power source, FTL propulsion or something even more exotic)

So how likely for us would be to learn something from it? I think this situation can be compared to one where we send an F 22 or nuclear submarine 500 years back in time except in case of alien craft even the language would completely alien to us.

[folti78]

Another interesting idea. Send back M1911 or some similar weapon into the 1600's, into the hands of a master canon- or musket-maker and they'll be able to learn from it. What would they be able to learn from it is the real question.

My guesses:
- the idea of bullets and possibly primers.
- the idea that you can fire balls in rapid succession.
- Rifling, definitely. Though, its possible that they know of it already.
- I wouldn't past them to be able to figure out the internal mechanisms of it.

Would they be able to replicate it? Hardly. Perhaps certain elements, but it would be impossible to replicate the weapon. It is also questionable whether they can even utilise it. Even if they could, its another question whether it would make a difference. Why? They likely will not have the materials present to do so. The internals of a M1911 is simplified clockwork essentially, and you need certain levels of metal, stainless steel, with good enough working to make it functional. Also, they could only use black powder, a inferior version than what any .45 ACP bullet uses today.

17th century tech level lacks the required knowledge of metallurgy and chemistry along with precision tools and other infrastructure to properly replicate an m1911 with the needed ammo.

Most of what could they learn from it will be theoretical knowledge, maybe some boost for technical progress and some sensitve, cumbersome and expensive toys for the wealthy.

BTW according to Wikipedia, rifling was known back in the 15th century, but the cost of manufacturing, slower loading time and sensitivity to dirt/soot kept them out of widespread military use until the 19th century. They were mostly used for hunting or by paramilitary units (like the Minutemen) who brought their civilian weapons with them.

[Zixinus]

17th century tech level lacks the required knowledge of metallurgy and chemistry along with precision tools and other infrastructure to properly replicate an m1911 with the needed ammo.

Excatly my point. They can't replicate it. They can understand it but can't replicate it.

BTW according to Wikipedia, rifling was known back in the 15th century, but the cost of manufacturing, slower loading time and sensitivity to dirt/soot kept them out of widespread military use until the 19th century. They were mostly used for hunting or by paramilitary units (like the Minutemen) who brought their civilian weapons with them.

Again, an important point. Just because you know futuristic technology, it doesn't mean you can utilise it.

[Bilbo]

Lets try a focus on something a little more SW vs. ST. In my mind the most likely item of value that ST would ever capture would be a droid. The disparity in ships is just huge, so capturing Stardestroyers is a joke. A simple astromech or protocal droid could be acquired either through a lucky ambush of Imperial troops or beaming one up when its not under a jamming field. The how is not important. Assume it works.

What could starfleet learn from even a lowly droid that a slave from Tatooine can build? The body does not tell them much 3PO for example is vastly inferior to Data in his locomotion, toughness, or agility. On the other hand there is every indication the 3PO has superior mental capabilities (at least we dont hear 3PO making mistakes about basic science). In fact since 3PO can be mind-wiped and still fully function shows a superior design. Data seems to have an integrated brain. My guess is you could not wipe any one part of his mind without risking the whole thing.

Now since we know Starfleet barely understands Data, IE they cannot replicate him, even Data cannot replicate himself. What could Starfleet learn if they had a droid in their hands to take apart? He will not come with manuals and any inscriptions on his components will be in basic not English (though the average protocal droid may translate those for his starfleet captors just to be polite and because he sees no harm in it).

[Khaat]

A protocol droid probably knows enough of his own design to act as an "owner's manual" for whomever finds him. Particulars of alloy or processor may not be available (besides show-room-floor spin), but servo-mechanism basics, operating power levels, how to wire a charger for your droid, etc.

An astromech droid would be the thing to have: repair and technical manuals on the SW civilization's spaceships (generic, granted) and power sources, robotics, programming, navigation, sciences. Just that small problem with binary-language-only. Ask nice and an R2 could probably wire up a translator, though.

I guess a question here would be: does an astromech have files on every ship with which it comes in contact (does the ship have a built-in manual to download?), or does it simply extrapolate from the baseline tech ("we wire things like this so over here, I should find the insert relevant thing")?