Worst EU NOVEL

[DrMckay]

As far as the EU goes, I realy stopped reading after Allston's NJO books. It just got too dumb. As far as the EU goes, much as "TEH UBER Admiral Dalaa, and Kyp Durron WUnderkid" pissed me off, and even taking into account what he did to Dune, KJA was still Better than "planet of twilight, Crystal Star, or The New Rebellion." Of all of them, I probably hated Crystalk Star the most.

As far as Stackpole goes, Gary Stu and Fighter Wank aside, the guy's a pretty decent writer, and at least gave us something that didn't include "OMG Han/Luke/Leia save the day agian."

I enjoyed haveing the story focused on new characters, and when Allston took over the X-wing books, they got Far, far better. Honestly, is there anyone who doesn't like Wraith Squadron and Starfighters of Adumar?

Oh, yeah, and that Boba Fett story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters? Frakkin' awesome. As was the one where he takes out an Imperial Garrison Base to get to a bounty.

Why did theys stop writing the "Tales Of" books? I liked how you got a sampling of different authors.

[Thanas]

Oh, yeah, and that Boba Fett story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters? Frakkin' awesome. As was the one where he takes out an Imperial Garrison Base to get to a bounty

Fett wanking. URGH. And Tales of the Bounty Hunters portraying Fett as a somewhat honorable person who justifies his actions because they serve the greater good? Bah.

[DrMckay]

Y'know this was before we had the whole uber-mando bit, and it was a fairly decent attempt to explain his motivations adn origins. The final confrontation between him and Solo was good though.

[General Soontir Fel]

An actual novel? The Crystal Star.

But nothing can compare to the single worst piece of fiction in existence, the Dark Empire series.

[Imperial Overlord]

Mwahaha. Oh man, you'll love this then. After all, 'tis better to show than tell.

*Tears up* I love you man.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Agreed, though given that he only had WEG sourcebooks to work with as background, one shouldn't be surprised of the minimalism.

That's not a good excuse. WEG never thought the Unknown Regions could be as big as most of the galaxy (implied in TTT), or even a huge percentage. WEG also never thought 200 Dreadnoughts was a huge fleet, given their minimum Order of Battle for a Sector Group called for two dozen ISDs which aggregately outmass the entire Katana Fleet, and WEG acknowledged "regions" (note plural) containing "thousands" (again note plural) of Star Destroyers.

[Old Plympto]

IIRC, the "Unknown Regions" was first coined in HTTE by Zahn, though it was printed as "the unknown regions". Soon after, the HTTE Sourcebook by WEG capitalized the initials and made it into an actual region of the galaxy as opposed to what seemed to be a throwaway phrase to where Thrawn had disappeared to for the past years.

[Pelranius]

Agreed, though given that he only had WEG sourcebooks to work with as background, one shouldn't be surprised of the minimalism.

That's not a good excuse. WEG never thought the Unknown Regions could be as big as most of the galaxy (implied in TTT), or even a huge percentage. WEG also never thought 200 Dreadnoughts was a huge fleet, given their minimum Order of Battle for a Sector Group called for two dozen ISDs which aggregately outmass the entire Katana Fleet, and WEG acknowledged "regions" (note plural) containing "thousands" (again note plural) of Star Destroyers.

In fairness to Zahn, the Katana fleet seemed to have been some sort of elite unit solely attached to Thrawn's personal command for psychological value. I don't believe that we ever saw the Katana dreadnaughts in action outside of the Chimaera naval formation and Zahn acknowledged the existence of other Imperial Navy taskforces in the Last Command fighting offscreen to retake various sectors.

[Batman]

In fairness to Zahn, the Katana fleet seemed to have been some sort of elite unit solely attached to Thrawn's personal command for psychological value. I don't believe that we ever saw the Katana dreadnaughts in action outside of the Chimaera naval formation and Zahn acknowledged the existence of other Imperial Navy taskforces in the Last Command fighting offscreen to retake various sectors.

Much as I like Zahn's work, that is simply not true. The Katana fleet was, by both parties, considered to noticeably if not decidingly tip the scales in the Empire's favour when 200 dreadnoughts SHOULD be a drop in the bucket (a rather TINY drop at that) at the scales the Empire and the New Republic operate on.
About the only psychological effect was 'Damn. He actually found the Katana fleet. That's nifty' (ignoring the 'Woe is us! He found 200 ancient heavy cruisers that shouldn't make a iota's worth of difference but somehow do') and there was nothing elite about them. The Katanas were used as regular line forces. And no, they were NOT exclusively operating with the Chimaera Task Force. If they WERE people might be a little more lenient about the minimalism because a 200+ ship battle group would actually have been impressive. They were split out across what remained of the Imperial Navy.
As for multiple task forces, we SEE (well, read) several of them operating parallel in DFR. The minimalsim wasn't in Thrawn only using one task force. It was in those forces being far and few between and being tiny in numbers. 5 ISDs and support might be more then enough to run roughshot over the Alpha Quadrant but for something the size of the Galactic Empire (and by extension, the New Republic) that's NOTHING. They could spare 3 Star Destroyers to play shore patrol over a podunk desert planet looking for a pair of droids!

[Coiler]

It's not really a novel per se, but I'd consider the IG-88 story in ToBH to be the worst printed EU work that I've read. Even as a little kid who couldn't see the ridiculousness of Darksaber or The New Rebellion, I still didn't think it was-right.

[Pelranius]

Much as I like Zahn's work, that is simply not true. The Katana fleet was, by both parties, considered to noticeably if not decidingly tip the scales in the Empire's favour when 200 dreadnoughts SHOULD be a drop in the bucket (a rather TINY drop at that) at the scales the Empire and the New Republic operate on.
About the only psychological effect was 'Damn. He actually found the Katana fleet. That's nifty' (ignoring the 'Woe is us! He found 200 ancient heavy cruisers that shouldn't make a iota's worth of difference but somehow do') and there was nothing elite about them. The Katanas were used as regular line forces. And no, they were NOT exclusively operating with the Chimaera Task Force. If they WERE people might be a little more lenient about the minimalism because a 200+ ship battle group would actually have been impressive. They were split out across what remained of the Imperial Navy.
As for multiple task forces, we SEE (well, read) several of them operating parallel in DFR. The minimalsim wasn't in Thrawn only using one task force. It was in those forces being far and few between and being tiny in numbers. 5 ISDs and support might be more then enough to run roughshot over the Alpha Quadrant but for something the size of the Galactic Empire (and by extension, the New Republic) that's NOTHING. They could spare 3 Star Destroyers to play shore patrol over a podunk desert planet looking for a pair of droids!

I've never seen the Katana Dreadnaughts to operate in any other fleets than the "Chimaera taskforce" in the Last Command, which itself was used as a regular line force. Naturally that doesn't preclude the inclusion of the Katana ships in the typical taskforce or sector fleet offscreen. I'm also inclined to believe that they were attached to Thrawn's personal command since they were crewed by the Wayland clones, who wouldn't have inconvenient ties to the other Imperial fleet commanders and Ruling Council that Thrawn choose to stay away from as much as possible.

I thought that the shock value of the Katana ships came from the clones that operated them, as well as the Force Meld that C'Boath used to enhance their fighting effectiveness.

As for the other taskforces, there was a quote about the Imperials taking two sectors and threatening a dozen more (still looking for the specific page). That would lend interpretation either to Thrawn's personal command being everywhere, or being the work of the "senior Fleet commanders" that Thrawn had kept in the dark about the Wayland cloning project.

[Kartr_Kana]

I thought that the shock value of the Katana ships came from the clones that operated them, as well as the Force Meld that C'Boath used to enhance their fighting effectiveness.

They feared that the Katana fleet would tip the balance of power in Thrawns favor, before they new about the clones. They thought they'd have time to come up with a counter before he could find the crews so they weren't as worried. The clones cause fear on two accounts, first was that Thrawn could now supply his fleet and army with a near limitless supply of personnel. Second the Galaxy had been traumatized by clones during the first round clone wars and had a pathological fear of them.

[Pelranius]

Thinking about it some more, I realized that if the Katana Dreadnaughts were properly modernized to possess the same level of firepower as an Assault Frigate, they would be worth about 50 Imperial Star Destroyers to Thrawn. In Heir to the Empire, Pellaeon estimated that the enemy taskforce of four Assault Frigates would be too much for the Chimaera to handle. The Katana Dreadnaught could be modernized to the same level of efficiency as the Assault Frigate by removing the hangar and assault troop facilities to provide space for additional reactors to power weaponry and shielding (the TLC comic Katanas didn't show any structural changes, which suggests the modernization was done internally).

The additional of the Katana force to Thrawn's personal command would roughly double its firepower (if that picture of the armada in the TTT sourcebook is to be believed) while providing him with a crew personally loyal to him instead of potentially being beholden to the other Imperial leaders, which is an important consideration if one remembers the backstabbing and infighting that characterized Imperial politics. Additionally a few hundred dreadnaughts is a more flexible, albeit vulnerable force, than several dozen Imperators.

[Kartr_Kana]

The only problem with that scenario is that there's no mention of them being upgraded to near Assault Frigate levels. Other wise it's a pretty good idea especially if they added as much automation as the Rebels did.

[Pelranius]

Excuse me, I meant to type "probably" instead of "properly".

Now it's just an assumption on my part, but given that Thrawn did have a fairly substantive industrial capacity at his disposal (it took him a few months to get the Katana ships back into fighting shape so the Imperials were probably doing something), along with the fact that the Katana Dreadnaughts were put on frontline duty, such as the Siege of Coruscant, as opposed to the typical occupation duties that most Dreadnaughts were stuck with, implies that they were more capable than the run of the mill Dreadnaughts.

[Kartr_Kana]

It'd make a lot more sense, but once again there's no evidence that the were anything but normal Katana Dreadnaughts. Also the NR hero's are worried that the Dreadnaughts might tip the scales, before Thrawn has his hands on them. While it doesn't prove that he didn't modify/upgrade them the very fact that the NR was worried about Dreadnaughts rather then pseudo-Assault Frigates inclines me to believe that he hadn't or that they didn't think he would.

[Thanas]

Considering that Thrawn's industrial capacity was already preoccupied with building up the war machine - and was overproducing so much that they nearly ran out of several rare metals, I doubt they spent much time upgrading the Dreadnoughts.

I always believe Thrawn used the Dreadnoughts to free up ISDs for offensive operations, instead of guarding some space station or so. Since Thrawn made a huge campaign against the warlords to secure his flank before taking on the republic, Dreadnoughts may be sufficient to contain some of those (Krennel, for example).

We never see more than a dozen Katana dreadnoughts attached to his fleet anyway.

[Agent Sorchus]

They could have been using the Dreadnoughts as impromptu transports as well as escorts for naval convoys near to the front' sort of like how the republic attempted converted warships as bulk transports. The katanas have the advantage of pre-existing slave circuitry to cut crew costs.

The other thing that is not mentioned about the katana fleet is any support vessel's or tankers. It is entirely possible Thrawn had more uses for the fleet support elements than for the fleet itself.

[Rochey]

I've steered clear of the Travis crap and anything post-NJO, so I can't say how they match up to my choice. But my candidate for worst EU novel is, without a doubt, The Crystal Star. Say what you want about KJA, but at least something happened in his novels. Crystal Star was just one unnecessarily long piece of nothing, and I think I only finished reading the damn thing in the vain hope that there might be some sort of satisfactory resolution to the whole thing.

[Kythnos]

Crystal Star - not that I have read anything recently. I stopped reading near the end of the “Yon War”, as I could easily see where it was going. I don’t mind people making “the Evil Alien Invaders” that commit countless war crimes. What bothered me was when they decided they where “just misunderstood”.

I also blame KJA, not for poor writing I did not mind reading his books, but for starting the whole “Bigger, Bader and Better” scenario. The whole super-weapon of the week, made me sick. And the concept of the “Suncrusher” using a Torp too take out a sun, was plainly painful.

Not to be a Zahn apologist, because there are many things that just don’t fit from his books and that could have been done Much better, but he had to go from Massive Empire to Loser without much to work with. So the Empire fighting itself, does make for a fast explanation, as too why the Rebellion could have possibly won the war. If they reached the balance point in fleet strength then 200 of anything would tip the balance.

[Samuel]

Not to be a Zahn apologist, because there are many things that just don’t fit from his books and that could have been done Much better, but he had to go from Massive Empire to Loser without much to work with. So the Empire fighting itself, does make for a fast explanation, as too why the Rebellion could have possibly won the war. If they reached the balance point in fleet strength then 200 of anything would tip the balance.

The problem people have is the volume of a dreadnaught is a small fraction of a stardestroyer- it is too small to tip the balance.

[Kartr_Kana]

The other thing that is not mentioned about the katana fleet is any support vessel's or tankers. It is entirely possible Thrawn had more uses for the fleet support elements than for the fleet itself.

That's because there is no support fleet. It's 200 slave rigged Dreadnaughts and that's it, there's no support fleet, no tankers, nothing. You know why? Because there doesn't need to be. The US Navy doesn't send a USNS vessel with it's ESGs, they base them out of friendly ports. When an ESG needs supplies it rendezvous at sea and they pull across fuel lines and use helicopters to transfer crates of consumables.

As for using them as transports, it's never stated that he does and everyone in universe assumes that they're going to be on the front lines. Even with slave rigging the crew requirements are considered to be huge; 2,000 men. So that doesn't really help him either.

The best explanation would be that when the Katana's had been converted their capabilities had been upgraded to near assault frigate capabilities. That would help make sense as to why that would be such a significant fleet in the OR and why everyone thinks it will tip the balance of power in TTT.

Didn't two of Bel Iblis's dreadnaughts hold a star destroy at a stand still, even though it was stated they wouldn't be able to do so for long? If so would all 6 be enough to put an Imperator down? That'd make them less powerful then the Assault Frigate, but far more powerful then a regular Dreadnaught.

[Thanas]

Didn't two of Bel Iblis's dreadnaughts hold a star destroy at a stand still, even though it was stated they wouldn't be able to do so for long?

Three.

[DoctorPhanan]

Anything, and I mean *ANYTHING* Written by Timothy Zahn, where the original SW gang plays second fiddle to Zahn's own godmodding characters. Then he goes on ahead and makes "Outbound Flight", same agenda: The Original SW characters play sidekicks and don't act the way they would had a more experienced SW writer would've portrayed them. And he goes too far out of his way to make homages to the original series.

On the other hand, Kevin J. Anderson's "Darksaber" and the "Shadows of the Empire" Novelization by Steve Perry ought to be made into movies.

Are you a hypocrite or incredibly dense? Shadows of the Empire featured Xizor and Dash Rendar two retardedly Godmoded Perry-Created characters. Also, Leia wants to bone Xizor, and Vader is an incompetent high school kid, yeah that dosen't sound at all like the main characters acting way out of their established traits. And to top it off, apparently lasers do nothing to diamonds. I'm not even going to dignify "Darksaber" with anything more than a snort.

For me, the worst EU novel was probably "Dark Apprentice." a self-contained character twist which was really pretty much forgotten about after its over, and resolved by Jaina going "I dont wanna"

[Crazedwraith]

For me, the worst EU novel was probably "Dark Apprentice." a self-contained character twist which was really pretty much forgotten about after its over, and resolved by Jaina going "I dont wanna"

Umm. Jaina was all of two years old in Dark Apprentice, which is the second KJA novel. Did you mean the NJO novel; Dark Journey?