Semi-Viable Mecha Idea? [cont']

[Kartr_Kana]

No I was thinking of this version. And no matter how you slice it vehicles/mecha are always going to be more expensive and bigger targets then infantry. The trade off is speed and firepower.

Well it's no MBT, but it's a lot better then what the infantry has for armor. As for support on the objective I wasn't thinking that this would be a one man show that flies deep into enemy territory. Rather it's a close support vehicle for the mountain infantry. The jump jets are just to enable it to get past steep obstacles that it can't walk up. Cliff faces and such. While normal infantry can send up their scout climbers who set up ropes and then have the unit work their way up the cliff face mechs like I envision can't do that. Hence the jump jets so it can rocket up to the top.

Edit-As for using light tanks instead of Humvees, I don't really see the point. Humvee's and Humvee equipped units shouldn't be facing enemy tanks without attached tanks of their own. Humvee's allow you to carry almost a fire team plus a crew-served weapon with great mobility and speed. Plus if you role with a 7ton or an MRAP you can carry more troops. You can pack a whole platoon into a single 7 ton and 3 humvee's if you squeeze, plus four crew-serves, good protection from snipers and decent protection from IED's.

[Stark]

I'm not familiar with Gundam or Patlabor. I was thinking something along the lines of C&C3's Wolverine. As we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan Humvee's are vulnerable to "all manner of IED's, Rockets and what not". They still get used because the benefits of being able to rapidly transport crew-served weapons outweighs the risk.

So you recommend something more expensive, more advanced, more difficult to maintain with requirements outside that of regular army vehicles based on this logic?

It's pretty sad how easily people forget the mecha agility that is shown in television shows is complete bunk. It might work for fantastic vectored-thrust robots, but for anything practical you're going to get Patlabor-level stompy-robot agility tops. The all-terrain thing is similar since it's generally just taken for granted. Remember that hilarious Gasaraki test? WHAT IS BIAS? And those mechs had fucking demons on their side.

[Darth Ruinus]

Except if this thing is going to be fielded in mountains, it's only bonus is that it has better firepower, and better armor.

It can't be fast, beccause of the terrain. I doubt there will be places on mountains where it can start gunning it real fast, and even if it could, doing so would probably be noisy, thus alerting the enemy to your position. Plus, it will certainly give away its position when it fires off those jetpacks, which will require even more fuel and resources, and probably be even more impractical. It would be like putting a jetpack on a car for some reason. How many times would you want to use this jetpack? More uses would require more fuel.

So its just a big target, that is expensive to build, and probably wouldn't be that effective anyway.

[Kartr_Kana]

What is this Gasakari test?

I don't watch mecha on TV, my only real exposure too it is from SW, C&C, and the Mech Warrior games. None of which give mech's the agility you seem to think I'm expecting.

So you recommend something more expensive, more advanced, more difficult to maintain with requirements outside that of regular army vehicles based on this logic?

Yes I'm suggesting a vehicle that has requirements outside that of regular army vehicles. Since regular army vehicles can't operate in the kind of terrain we're talking about. If we turned down every new weapon or bit of technology because it was more expensive and advanced (I assume you mean complicated) then we'd still be firing muzzle load rifles at armored cavalry.

It will have better speed then the average infantryman and it will be able to maintain that speed for longer. Of course it's actual speed will be limited to how fast the infantry are moving so that it doesn't out run it's support. The simple fact that it can bring heavier weapons to bear means it will save the lives of the infantry it supports and makes it worth having.

The jetpack is only for scaling obstacles that you cannot go around. And it also depends on the tech level we're talking about. If they have a compact highly efficient fuel source that would allow them hundreds of jumps between refueling then you'd use it more. If you can only get 10 or 12 jumps you use it as sparingly as possible.

Yes it's a big target, yes it's expensive to build, but by bringing more firepower to bear then a team or two it should be quite effective.

I'm not saying it's going to be a super weapon capable of winning wars by itself. I'm just saying it gives the infantry in a mountain environment the fire support they're lacking. Which will help them win battles and save their lives.

[Shroom Man 777]

As for off road terrain goes, a tank can do pretty good. I mean, I can imagine a mecha sliding off a mountain and flipping over easier than a mecha climbing over it without any trouble at all.

[Kartr_Kana]

Ya, but how good are tanks in the mountains?

Anyways the point of this thread was most practical Mecha idea's and the only one I could see as being sort of practical was using them in rough, steep terrain.

That's an awesome video btw Shroomy

[Shroom Man 777]

In rough steep terrain, they'd fare even worse than tanks and stuff. With every step there'd be vibrations and that would rattle the inside stuff, and the steepness would threaten to tip the mecha over due to its high center of gravity.

The only practical mecha idea would be my crazy space station fighting vehicles.

As for navigating mountains, wheels beat legs mang, all the time.

[Ford Prefect]

Ahh I see, I used Gundam because most of those mechs seem to fly

That's an amusing misconception. While a lot of mobile suits can fly, a majority do not. The original Mobile Suit Gundam, for example, featured out of something like two dozen mecha, only a couple which could conceivably fly under actual planetary gravity. The most recent Gundam series is actually unusual in that the majority of its suits can fly.

What is this Gasakari test?

The series Gasaraki features a demonstration of the resident mecha, the tactical armours, in an attempt to get them deployed in a peacekeeping effort. It starts with a race between them and a pair of tanks over uneven terrain. The Tactical Armours win on account of their highly developed learning computers and their cloned demon tissue muscles giving them epic running speed. They subsequently dominate in an urban combat situation against a variety of IFVs by taking advantage of their ability to climb buildings.

[FOG3]

Have you ever had to carry a man-portable missile through the mountains? It's a bitch and we were carrying MK153 SMAWs which are unguided light weight rocket launchers. A javelin or TOW system is much heavier and harder to transport. That's my whole reason for using mecha in mountain terrain. They'd give you the ability carry crew serves and heavier faster, over longer distance, more ammunition and more protection for the crew.

The M72 LAW, the immediate predecessor of the present AT-4, with a 66mm warhead is light enough soldiers have repeatedly forgotten they had them, including in during the Battle of Black Sea better known as Black Hawk Down. While a M-72 is more or less obsolescent against modern AFVs, if the terrain you describe is truly limited to mecha then there's no reason the M-72 LAW is not perfectly adequate. The Soviets developped a larger knock off in the RPG-22, which is still almost a fifth of the weight of a loaded SMAW.

Furthermore TOWs were deployed on Jeeps prior to their phasing out, meaning rigging up Technicals with some kind of long ranged anti-tank weapon is perfectly feasible. I expect they'd be using Soviet missiles as opposed to American however.

Riot vehicles, when deployed for a riot, won't be containing many troops, other than the crew. Riot trucks and such act to butress the shield wall formed by riot troops and in any case riot troops are typically well protected by their riot gear. Riot troops have to be visible, they are there to enforce the law and intimidate rioters and could not do their job from within a riot vehicle anyways. As for Molotov cocktails and rocks and what not, riot troops are trained to deal with those threats, a glimpse of which can be seen here: British Riot Training.

Using a single mecha, or even a line of mecha is going to be expensive, even if only to bolster riot troops. Police and soldiers trained and equipped to handle riots, with additional vehicular support (both specialized and standard, not including mecha) are a better choice. With "standard" riot control forces you cover a larger area, less expensively, and more effectively.

Fair enough. I'll look into that some more. Still if there was a significant advantage I could see it being taken simply due to being cheaper then lawsuits and bodybags if you catch my drift. Especially given how popular Peace Keeping flavored OOTW are.

[Kartr_Kana]

I agree the LAW would be perfectly adequate against any sort of light vehicle likely to be encountered in such rough terrain. However it lacks the versatility of the SMAW. Also the SMAW can fire thermobaric rounds, which are designed to kill anyone hiding in caves with a single shot.

For technicals I'd use the Javalin rather then the TOW. It's soft launch feature and top down attack would make it the better weapon IMO.

[Darth Ruinus]

The only practical mecha idea would be my crazy space station fighting vehicles.

Wait, if it is in space, it wouldn't have legs (or wouldn't need them anyways) and it would have lots of hands and such (like a Star Wars probe droid I guess). But, I thought mecha had to have legs?

[Formless]

Wait, if it is in space, it wouldn't have legs (or wouldn't need them anyways) and it would have lots of hands and such (like a Star Wars probe droid I guess). But, I thought mecha had to have legs?

It depends on the layout, I think. A monkey shape*, with four hands and/or a tail, would be more efficient than a Gundam pseudo-human. A squid shape would likely be more efficient still, although it would also be harder to control without LOTS of automation. Which isn't outside the realms of possibility, of course, but people always love things better when you can put a human inside, practical or not, because it makes it more immediately compelling, story-wise.

Of course, legs or arms, I think it still counts as a mech. Articulated joints and limbs count for something.

Personally, I think it would look less like a probe droid and would more likely employ quadralateral symmetry to gain as much advantage from the 3d null-gravity environment as it can.

* I kinda wonder how that would feel, learning to control an arm with a foot. That would sure make for an interesting control scheme (assuming you can't just jack a neural interface into your brain or use an AI)!

[Ford Prefect]

Wait, if it is in space, it wouldn't have legs (or wouldn't need them anyways) and it would have lots of hands and such (like a Star Wars probe droid I guess). But, I thought mecha had to have legs?

While one might question the logic in giving it to Char 'Red Comet Kick' Aznable, the mobile suit Zeong did not have legs, but it was most definitely a mecha.

[Stark]

So you recommend something more expensive, more advanced, more difficult to maintain with requirements outside that of regular army vehicles based on this logic?

Yes I'm suggesting a vehicle that has requirements outside that of regular army vehicles. Since regular army vehicles can't operate in the kind of terrain we're talking about. If we turned down every new weapon or bit of technology because it was more expensive and advanced (I assume you mean complicated) then we'd still be firing muzzle load rifles at armored cavalry.

I'm going to figure you're just dumb and not dishonest. Answer the question; do you think a vehicle that is more expensive, more difficult to maintain and needlessly complex should be used because we use jeeps? Don't spin this into ignorant 'omg u hate progrezzz' bullshit.

The jetpack is only for scaling obstacles that you cannot go around. And it also depends on the tech level we're talking about. If they have a compact highly efficient fuel source that would allow them hundreds of jumps between refueling then you'd use it more. If you can only get 10 or 12 jumps you use it as sparingly as possible.

LOLGASM. Yeah, uh, good luck with that. I guess we moved away from the 'semi viable' part somewhere back there?

Yes it's a big target, yes it's expensive to build, but by bringing more firepower to bear then a team or two it should be quite effective.

Explain how. To me it looks like a large, complex, expensive vehicle that isn't more survivable and is slower. Or is it faster than a car now? What is ground pressure? I hear it has a MAGIC jetpack that can be used a hundred times? Please note I have no interest in your ridiculous mountain blah blah blah nonsense; I simply responded to your RIDICULOUS example of the logic of using fucking jeeps is the same as the logic to use mechs, even though they're way more expensive, way more complex, not necessarily any better and probably worse, require a whole new support infrastructure, etc. I think this logic is broken and no amount of fanfiction is changing that. Jeeps can move things, and that's good - a super complex, super expensive jeep is not, however, a good idea based on this.

[Kartr_Kana]

I was trying to defend something indefensible Stark and I stopped being honest about it and started grasping for anything to shore up my position.

Like I said earlier mecha are not practical and the mountain scenario was the only one that I could see might be "semi-practical" as per the OP.

[Stark]

Yeah that's cool, but the Humvee example was a bit of a stretch.

I think I'll see if I can find the Gasaraki test on Youtube; it's a perfect example of how hopelessly biased testing demonstrates mech 'advantages' when these advantages generally don't exist. This is also the show where a mech hanging out the back of a c-130 shot down a Su-33 with it's rifle.

[Darth Ruinus]

While one might question the logic in giving it to Char 'Red Comet Kick' Aznable, the mobile suit Zeong did not have legs, but it was most definitely a mecha.

Didn't that thing have legs at some point though? They were retractable into the thruster system or something like that weren't they?

[TheMuffinKing]

Maybe we could have an impractical mecha idea. I would have a 30m tall mech with two legs and like eight arms, each holding giant nightsticks to beat rioters with!

[Stark]

Maybe we could have an impractical mecha idea. I would have a 30m tall mech with two legs and like eight arms, each holding giant nightsticks to beat rioters with!

C'mon, those magic mecha that spend 24 hours a day on vectored thrust flying around like jet fighters to HAVE SWORDFIGHTS are way more impractical than that!

[Darth Ruinus]

It depends on the layout, I think. A monkey shape*, with four hands and/or a tail, would be more efficient than a Gundam pseudo-human. A squid shape would likely be more efficient still, although it would also be harder to control without LOTS of automation. Which isn't outside the realms of possibility, of course, but people always love things better when you can put a human inside, practical or not, because it makes it more immediately compelling, story-wise.

You wouldn't need automation, you could easily stick another person in there, a co-pilot or something. One person could control the movement of this space mecha thing, while the other controls the limbs for fixing, welding or shooting whatever needs to be fixed, welded or shot. Many modern day vehicles require two people to operate, why should mecha be any different?

It also adds to the story! Instead of one angsty teen pilot risking his life, two angsty teen pilots will do it!

Personally, I think it would look less like a probe droid and would more likely employ quadralateral symmetry to gain as much advantage from the 3d null-gravity environment as it can.

Those extra limbs would raise up its price though. If it needs to fix or shot at something above it, it can just turn around and look up you know.

[TheMuffinKing]

Maybe we could have an impractical mecha idea. I would have a 30m tall mech with two legs and like eight arms, each holding giant nightsticks to beat rioters with!

C'mon, those magic mecha that spend 24 hours a day on vectored thrust flying around like jet fighters to HAVE SWORDFIGHTS are way more impractical than that!

Yeah, but they don't make me chuckle like the thought of KALIMECH going apeshit on some protesters with cop sticks, sending them flying aboot!

[Formless]

You wouldn't need automation, you could easily stick another person in there, a co-pilot or something. One person could control the movement of this space mecha thing, while the other controls the limbs for fixing, welding or shooting whatever needs to be fixed, welded or shot. Many modern day vehicles require two people to operate, why should mecha be any different?

It also adds to the story! Instead of one angsty teen pilot risking his life, two angsty teen pilots will do it!

Or the angsty teen pilot and the irritable, cynical strait man who has to put up with his bullshit! Or maybe the love interest! The Black Comedy gold potentials are endless with this one!

Uh, more seriously though, wasn't one of the purposes of the zero-g squid-mech that the arms could help maneuver in corridors, space stations, and debris fields? Might change the jobs of the copilot a little bit if that is the case.

Those extra limbs would raise up its price though. If it needs to fix or shot at something above it, it can just turn around and look up you know.

Well of course it would raise price, but no more then the numerous arms of a squid would. It depends on what the characters and/or their organization can afford. After all, quadrilateral symmetry means at least four arms, no more limbs then the standard gundam style humanoid. You wouldn't get very much benefit out of just one or two arms, after all, why not make use of more if you can afford it?

If you can't afford it, why would you use a mech at all?

Edit: You aren't thinking of a work pod like in 2001 a Space Odyssey, with only two manipulator arms and conventional thruster engines, are you?

[Ford Prefect]

Didn't that thing have legs at some point though? They were retractable into the thruster system or something like that weren't they?

It was supposed to have legs, but it was incomplete at the time of deployment. As it was a space battle, legs weren't actually necessary, and it was quite desperate at the time. Pictures do exist of the Zeong with legs.

I think I'll see if I can find the Gasaraki test on Youtube; it's a perfect example of how hopelessly biased testing demonstrates mech 'advantages' when these advantages generally don't exist.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here, Stark. Are you saying that the test was rigged or something?

[Shroom Man 777]

I think he was saying that those tanks would've scored just as favorably as the mecha if they also had cloned demon amoeba organelles that allow them to undulate on the ground at obscene speeds, while secreting slug-like slime adhesives to also allow them to slither atop of vertical terrain and stuff. It would be... a metal slug.

This hypothetical tank would also be able to adhere itself on the lower fuselage of transport planes with its adhesive slime, allowing it to shoot at Sukhois and stuff.

EDIT:

I think my proposed space station mecha might also be awesome in underwater combat. If there were, like, huge underwater cities and sea labs and stuff. It would be like those dudes in brass diving helmets fighting each other with switchblades.

[Formless]

EDIT:

I think my proposed space station mecha might also be awesome in underwater combat. If there were, like, huge underwater cities and sea labs and stuff. It would be like those dudes in brass diving helmets fighting each other with switchblades.

Great, now the HAB can preach about the advantages of submarines too!

I think any situation where this kind of mech can take advantage of a 3d environment and unusual architecture it will be able to hold its own. Want to defend Cloud City from occupying troops? Get in and climb about the underside of the city like a spider! Need support in the caves of the Alien Planet With Unusual Geology? *cough*Utapao from Star Wars*cough* Climb down the sinkhole from the safety of the cockpit! Hell, even an ordinary city scape that has been built up waaaaayyyyyy past all logical sense, like an Ecumenopolis or Coruscant might enjoy spider walkers to police the catwalks! (Assuming hovertanks are out of the question in the setting)

Please tell me if I'm stretching anyone's suspension of disbelief here, I think we've just about nailed the perfect niche role for mechs, but I could be wrong.