Reverse-Engineering

[General Zod]

Now since we know Starfleet barely understands Data, IE they cannot replicate him, even Data cannot replicate himself. What could Starfleet learn if they had a droid in their hands to take apart? He will not come with manuals and any inscriptions on his components will be in basic not English (though the average protocal droid may translate those for his starfleet captors just to be polite and because he sees no harm in it).

It's not that they can't understand Data. It's that they don't have the schematics to build another one of him. There was a full episode dedicated to Starfleet wanting to acquire Data so they could take him apart, figure out what makes him work and make more of him but they wound up not getting the chance. It would be like trying to create a computer with only a theoretical knowledge of how everything works but no practical design schematics for how it's put together, so you're making guesses at where things are supposed to go and inevitably wind up with a lot of trial and error involved.

[folti78]

What could starfleet learn from even a lowly droid that a slave from Tatooine can build?

The value of standardized parts and interfaces? As far as I remember Anakin put together 3PO from discarded parts in a "some assembly required" fashion.

The body does not tell them much 3PO for example is vastly inferior to Data in his locomotion, toughness, or agility.

Like 3PO's intended task don't require higher quality body?

In fact since 3PO can be mind-wiped and still fully function shows a superior design.

Soo storing the important data (language database, basic OS and a blank AI personality) in Read-Only Memory, with a "Reset to factory defaults" support is so superior, it beyond ST's capabilities?

Data seems to have an integrated brain. My guess is you could not wipe any one part of his mind without risking the whole thing.

As Zod said, they no longer posess Data's blueprints and the the "source code" of his operating system, so they can't tell which part of his positronic brain does what, without long and costly reverse engineering.

[General Zod]

Data seems to have an integrated brain. My guess is you could not wipe any one part of his mind without risking the whole thing.

As Zod said, they no longer posess Data's blueprints and the the "source code" of his operating system, so they can't tell which part of his positronic brain does what, without long and costly reverse engineering.

I'm not sure how I missed this part, but the fact that there's been episodes where Data has had portions of or his entire memory temporarily erased but otherwise remained fully functioning rather contradicts Bilbo's guess.

[Singular Intellect]

Data seems to have an integrated brain. My guess is you could not wipe any one part of his mind without risking the whole thing.

As Zod said, they no longer posess Data's blueprints and the the "source code" of his operating system, so they can't tell which part of his positronic brain does what, without long and costly reverse engineering.

I'm not sure how I missed this part, but the fact that there's been episodes where Data has had portions of or his entire memory temporarily erased but otherwise remained fully functioning rather contradicts Bilbo's guess.

Not to mention in "Insurrection", Picard and Laforge were holding in their hands memory chips when Data commented he was missing memory segments.

[Durandal]

Lets try it this way. My wife just got an Ipod Touch for Christmas. If I have a time machine how far back can I send that Ipod touch and have the America that receives it actually be able to learn anything about it?

I am thinking not very far. If you send it to the age before USB then it will only last until the internal battery runs out even if I send the cord. So that limits how far back it can go. But how about the components.

Opinions? How far back in time do you think an Ipod Touch could be sent and actually help accelerate the society technologically.

They could take a look at the hardware under a microscope, but that's it. They wouldn't learn anything about the manufacturing processes to duplicate them. You need giant fabs to manufacture those chips. And hardware is only half the picture. The software in that thing would be basically impossible to duplicate. The reverse-engineers have no access to the source and, depending on the era, can't even pull the binaries off the device, much less the firmware.

[folti78]

Not to mention in "Insurrection", Picard and Laforge were holding in their hands memory chips when Data commented he was missing memory segments.

So Data's brain used some discrete parts, whose function Laforge recognized(at worst) and Data's comments verified.

[Bilbo]

Now since we know Starfleet barely understands Data, IE they cannot replicate him, even Data cannot replicate himself. What could Starfleet learn if they had a droid in their hands to take apart? He will not come with manuals and any inscriptions on his components will be in basic not English (though the average protocal droid may translate those for his starfleet captors just to be polite and because he sees no harm in it).

It's not that they can't understand Data. It's that they don't have the schematics to build another one of him. There was a full episode dedicated to Starfleet wanting to acquire Data so they could take him apart, figure out what makes him work and make more of him but they wound up not getting the chance. It would be like trying to create a computer with only a theoretical knowledge of how everything works but no practical design schematics for how it's put together, so you're making guesses at where things are supposed to go and inevitably wind up with a lot of trial and error involved.

I assume you are talking about the episode where they put Data on trial to determine him to be sentient.


In that episode the Starfleet nerd in question "assumed" he would learn what he needed to learn when he took apart Data. He also had no real idea how to keep Data alive and I got the impression that this would be a destructive examination that would destroy Data.

Data was interested in working with the guy until he learned that he basically wanted to chop Data up in hopes of learning what he needed.

[Bilbo]

Data seems to have an integrated brain. My guess is you could not wipe any one part of his mind without risking the whole thing.

As Zod said, they no longer posess Data's blueprints and the the "source code" of his operating system, so they can't tell which part of his positronic brain does what, without long and costly reverse engineering.

I'm not sure how I missed this part, but the fact that there's been episodes where Data has had portions of or his entire memory temporarily erased but otherwise remained fully functioning rather contradicts Bilbo's guess.

Data had the episode with the virus where his system rebooted and restored from some internal backup. I cannot think of another time when he had select portions of his memory removed.

[Bilbo]

What could starfleet learn from even a lowly droid that a slave from Tatooine can build?

The value of standardized parts and interfaces? As far as I remember Anakin put together 3PO from discarded parts in a "some assembly required" fashion.

The body does not tell them much 3PO for example is vastly inferior to Data in his locomotion, toughness, or agility.

Like 3PO's intended task don't require higher quality body?

Thats the fucking point moron. A protocol droid doesnt need a high-tech body do it doesnt have one which means Starfleet wouldnt learn anything from it.

Try fucking thinking.

[General Zod]

Data had the episode with the virus where his system rebooted and restored from some internal backup. I cannot think of another time when he had select portions of his memory removed.

There was one episode in season 7 where he was sent to some planet to retrieve some radioactive material and an accident caused most all of his memories to be erased. He was also hit with mass amnesia along with everyone else in the crew in a Season 5 episode.

[Samuel]

Data had the episode with the virus where his system rebooted and restored from some internal backup. I cannot think of another time when he had select portions of his memory removed.

There was one episode in season 7 where he was sent to some planet to retrieve some radioactive material and an accident caused most all of his memories to be erased. He was also hit with mass amnesia along with everyone else in the crew in a Season 5 episode.

Conundrum is the season 5 episode. Especially odd since the cmputers memory wasn't erased.

[General Zod]

Data had the episode with the virus where his system rebooted and restored from some internal backup. I cannot think of another time when he had select portions of his memory removed.

There was one episode in season 7 where he was sent to some planet to retrieve some radioactive material and an accident caused most all of his memories to be erased. He was also hit with mass amnesia along with everyone else in the crew in a Season 5 episode.

Conundrum is the season 5 episode. Especially odd since the cmputers memory wasn't erased.

I think the computer's memory was locked out, so they couldn't access any reliable information on personnel files other than what the person brainwashing them wanted them to see.

[Stuart]

I doubt you could rig up a powersupply anywhere near that early. For one the Ipod uses a USB plug for power. Also its a sealed unit. Trying to open it odds are you will destroy the unit.

That doesn't stop one from learning how it works. An example for you. In 1939, the British shot up the German armored cruiser and the German Captain (don't get me started on what I think of him) scuttled her off Montevideo. In particular, the radar set was pounded with sledgehammers and axes and then blown up. A British scientist took a look at a picture of the set and was able to estimate some of its key parameters and guess at its likely use. Later, the British purchased the wreck from Argentina and got a tech-team to look at the bits of the radar in detail. From that inspection they were able to calculate every single important detail of the radar and design countermeasures that negated it.

If you think that was good, in 1968 during the Vietnam War, an F-4 Phantom flew into a mountainside at 600mph. The Russians got a tech team to the crash site and they were able to pull the same coup off against the F-4s radar.

So, yes, reverse engineering is very possible (look at most CPLA kit) provided the kit and the investigator are at approximately the same level of technology. If they are not, then reverse engineering is virtually impossible. Another simple example. Take a radar and missile armed swept-wing jet back to (say) 1917 and give the Imperial German Army air corps a seeing to it won't forget in a hurry. Aftera ll, the first radar set was built pre-WW1, rockets etc were all understood, radio existed and a jet is nothing that complex. Surely the jet could be built back then? As it happens, no. Its not the big things that get you, its the little ones. I'll stipulate that the recipients could build a crude jet but there's a trick in building swept wings that isn't obvious. If one doesn't know it and builds an aircraft with swept wings, it'll go into an unrecoverable flat spin at around 600mph (less than 600mph swept wings don't buy one anything worth having). So a working swept wing jet will take years to design and build. By the way, the Nazis didn't know the problem existed nor did they know the solution so nonbe of their swept wing jets would have worked.

So, reverse engineering - yes.

Reverse engineering + time travel - no.

[Darth Wong]

The idea of people trying to build modern jets with the kind of materials they had to work with in 1917 is highly amusing

Materials science is one area where reverse-engineering attempts would be utterly hopeless. What are they going to do, take a piece of metal off an advanced aircraft and subject it to a tensile stress test? That would only tell them how much stronger and tougher it is than their own metals. It wouldn't give them the slightest clue how to fabricate it.

[Alyeska]

It gets even better. Even if they knew every single component of the material and the proper measurements, they still would be unable to replicate it. Using the same materials you can use a variety of techniques to fabricate entirely finished materials with entirely different attributes. Simple welding, angled joint welding, explosive welding. And that is the simple side of the scale.

Modern materials are an engineering wonder in their own right (go History Channel!).

[Stuart]

The idea of people trying to build modern jets with the kind of materials they had to work with in 1917 is highly amusing

That's a British level of understatement; I find the idea hysterically funny. The point is, the gross idea of a swept-wing jet would be understood pretty quickly. The people doing the reverse engineering would understand what they were looking at and had the basis of knowledge to guess the direction they'd have to go but as the old saying goes, the devil is in the details and its the details that would kill them and the pilot of anything they tried to build

Materials science is one area where reverse-engineering attempts would be utterly hopeless. What are they going to do, take a piece of metal off an advanced aircraft and subject it to a tensile stress test? That would only tell them how much stronger and tougher it is than their own metals. It wouldn't give them the slightest clue how to fabricate it.

Absolutely. Now, the guys would get an idea of what they were dealing with in strength and properties term and I bet they could run an analysis that would tell them what the various components of the alloys were and in what proportions they were present. But actually how to produce the alloy in the quantities (and with the consistency) required? I can imagine the helpless looks and shrugging of shoulders. They literally wouldn't know enough to realize how little they knew. Then we get to quality control (or rather lack of it). I can imagine the pilot walking around their creation accompanied by the gentle patter of parts falling off the airframe.

This all gets back to the original point, there's a huge difference between knowing how something works and being able to duplicate it on an industrial scale. At a specific level of technology, even our present level, that can be done. The Chinese Army, Navy and Air Force are full of reverse-engineered systems. Its not easy but its (obviously) doable. The really interesting question is how much of a technology gap would make reverse engineering impossible? Take the IPOD as an example, how far could we send it back before reverse engineering becomes impossible. Five years? Ten?

[Sarevok]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

[General Zod]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

Dubious at best; having a basic understanding of something doesn't mean they'll be able to progress any faster whatsoever in developing it as its already been mentioned. We've had a basic understanding of space elevators for decades now, but we're still not any closer to overcoming the practical limitations in materials science to build them, for example.

[Sarevok]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

Dubious at best; having a basic understanding of something doesn't mean they'll be able to progress any faster whatsoever in developing it as its already been mentioned. We've had a basic understanding of space elevators for decades now, but we're still not any closer to overcoming the practical limitations in materials science to build them, for example.

So it is kind of like powering cities with nuclear fusion power ? The scientific consensus is it can be done one day but knowing that has not helped much.

[Modax]

But sometimes inventions are just a matter of the right idea coming along. Imagine sending a Gutenberg printing press back to Ancient Rome in 1 A.D. Its value would be recognized immediately, and I'm guessing that it wouldn't be too complex for the Roman's ironworking capabilities to build a replica. They could probably do the same with Galileo's telescope or a medieval windmill.

On the other hand, look at neuroscience. Even after decades of intense study, we still only have a basic understanding of how the brain works. We know, for example, that the hippocampus is involved with storing long term memories, but scientists don't have the foggiest idea in what form these memories are stored. Is there some sort of neural analog to DNA? Is it digital or analog, and how is it encoded and retrieved? Computer technology from hundreds of years in the future might by similarly mystifying.

[Darth Wong]

But sometimes inventions are just a matter of the right idea coming along. Imagine sending a Gutenberg printing press back to Ancient Rome in 1 A.D. Its value would be recognized immediately, and I'm guessing that it wouldn't be too complex for the Roman's ironworking capabilities to build a replica. They could probably do the same with Galileo's telescope or a medieval windmill.

Or stirrups. But that's only the case when the invention in question is exceedingly simple. It stands to reason that a very simple design would be relatively simple to reverse engineer.

[Bilbo]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

Dubious at best; having a basic understanding of something doesn't mean they'll be able to progress any faster whatsoever in developing it as its already been mentioned. We've had a basic understanding of space elevators for decades now, but we're still not any closer to overcoming the practical limitations in materials science to build them, for example.

Best case would be that looking at a modern jet would tell you that one day jet engines will replace prop engines. With this knowlege you might chose to focus on jet engine research for heavily knowing that it can pay dividends in the long run. Instead of doing research trying to determine whether jet engines will ever be viable you will know that in the long run it will work.

Obviously this does not mean you will fly jets even a day sooner than they are technologically possible but it might eliminate "ignore this project shelve it time" which might delay research longer than needed.

Or it might hurt. It might cause you to focus on a tech long before certain areas of science are there to make it viable. This means you stop working on prop technology too early before the metallurgy is there to support decent jet engines. So while you might get jets a little sooner you might limit your more effective immediate research and hamper yourself that way.

[Darth Smiley]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

Perhaps the biggest effect an advanced piece of technology sent back in time would have would be political. It's easy to say "well, science is kinda useful...but we like tax breaks more". When you have a more advanced piece of technology, something that is hard evidence that something is doable, it is a powerful political weapon for those in favor of more research and development. That jet plane might not contribute anything to the science beyond 'we know it can be done', but it will get resources and time devoted to science, particularly if it manages to spark an arms race in aviation technology.

[Bilbo]

But actually how to produce the alloy in the quantities (and with the consistency) required? I can imagine the helpless looks and shrugging of shoulders. They literally wouldn't know enough to realize how little they knew.

Question from a complete layman and I admit off the point to a degree. How are new alloys developed? Is it litterally a hit or miss brute force approach? Keep trying different combinations, temperatures, etc until you get something that works?

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, the most likely outcome of a modern jet plane being sent back in time is massive paranoia, based on the fear that their enemies have vastly superior technology and this is a sample of it. It could be a disaster for society.