Reg. the Battle of Endor, and the size of the Rebel fleet.

[PainRack]

I managed to find the quote: "You all know these people," he [General Dodonna] intoned with quiet power. "They are the Senators and Generals whose worlds have given us support, whether open or covert. They have come to be with us in what may well prove to be the decisive moment."

I'm fairly certain that comes from the briefing scene, and I'm quite confident that they were well aware that the Death Star was on its way. Unless he was simply lying, it seems pretty straightforward that they either came, or chose to stay, to see the battle through.

What I meant to say was that the Senators had arrived prior to the Rebels knowing the Death Star arrival and they stayed on when they knew due to a variety of reasons. Therefore, it wasn't exactly a case where the Rebels gathered political and military leaders on a world where they knew the Death Star was coming. What happened was that the leaders were gathered at the Rebels Headquarters, the "main" base so as to speak for sundry reason and they remained behind just to show up at the briefing......
As for why they did so,there is absolutely no reason to believe the Rebels had the ability to evacuate the base at Yavin IV successfully when the Death Star showed up. Or that the leaders actually stayed behind after the starfighter squadrons launched. These leaders are conspiciously absent at the award ceremony. Furthermore, Mon Mothma and any number of other important Rebel political leaders were absent.

You mean "Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions"?

Yes. We don't accept This republic which has stood for a thousand years to be literally true, why accept this statement?

[The Romulan Republic]

What I meant to say was that the Senators had arrived prior to the Rebels knowing the Death Star arrival and they stayed on when they knew due to a variety of reasons. Therefore, it wasn't exactly a case where the Rebels gathered political and military leaders on a world where they knew the Death Star was coming. What happened was that the leaders were gathered at the Rebels Headquarters, the "main" base so as to speak for sundry reason and they remained behind just to show up at the briefing......
As for why they did so,there is absolutely no reason to believe the Rebels had the ability to evacuate the base at Yavin IV successfully when the Death Star showed up. Or that the leaders actually stayed behind after the starfighter squadrons launched. These leaders are conspiciously absent at the award ceremony. Furthermore, Mon Mothma and any number of other important Rebel political leaders were absent.

The way I see it, the Rebels would have had a central base from which to coordinate military opperations, but they probably did not keep their top leadership there most of the time, certainly not all simultaneously. Mon Mothma and Bel Iblis (who according to TTT left after Yavin), are not pressent in any shot of the Yavin base. The top Alliance leadership was probably kept mobile most of the time, on ships like Home One, to protect them from the Empire.

[Swindle1984]

Tarkin and the others seemed to expect Yavin to have some sort of serious defenses, either in the form of a theater shield and surface-based guns or capital ships. Tarkin's dismissal of thirty snub-fighters as Yavin's defense seemed not only to scorn such a "useless" attack, but the rebel's defenses in general.

It's probable that since these rebel leaders left, apparently during the battle, they probably left on any capital ships that were stationed near Yavin. They would have been useless in a fight against the Death Star, so why throw them away?

[The Romulan Republic]

Tarkin and the others seemed to expect Yavin to have some sort of serious defenses, either in the form of a theater shield and surface-based guns or capital ships. Tarkin's dismissal of thirty snub-fighters as Yavin's defense seemed not only to scorn such a "useless" attack, but the rebel's defenses in general.

It's probable that since these rebel leaders left, apparently during the battle, they probably left on any capital ships that were stationed near Yavin. They would have been useless in a fight against the Death Star, so why throw them away?

I know games are hardly high level canon, but doesn't Empire at War put Rebel capital ships at the Battle of Yavin? If so, since their's no sight or mention of them during the attack, it seems plausible that some of the leadership might have escaped on board.

[Rochey]

If there were capital ships stationed at Yavin before the Death Star showed up, it would make sense for them to be busy getting the Rebel VIPs out of harm's way as Swindle suggested. Throwing them at the DS would just result in their destruction, while using them to transport the officials to a safer location would increase the chances of survival for those being evacuated.

[TC Pilot]

What I meant to say was that the Senators had arrived prior to the Rebels knowing the Death Star arrival and they stayed on when they knew due to a variety of reasons. Therefore, it wasn't exactly a case where the Rebels gathered political and military leaders on a world where they knew the Death Star was coming.

The problem with that interpretation is that it goes rather heavily against the text. I'll grant that it's hardly unambiguous, but it seems the most fitting interpretation of the quote is that they gathered with the intention of being present for the battle.

As for why they did so,there is absolutely no reason to believe the Rebels had the ability to evacuate the base at Yavin IV successfully when the Death Star showed up.

Which explains why they chose to stand and fight over Yavin, since Leia was pretty much certain that they were being tracked. But that hardly explains why these "Senators and Generals," or Leia for that matter, decided to stay, endangering the lives of a large portion of the rebel leadership, both military and political, for absolutely no real advantage.

Or that the leaders actually stayed behind after the starfighter squadrons launched.

Leia did. Besides, that pretty much completly flies in the face of the quote, suggesting Dodonna was just lying through his teeth. Awfully poor form to allow yourselves to be introduced as comrades who "have come to be with us in what may well prove to be the decisive moment" and then just bail on everyone, wouldn't you say?

These leaders are conspiciously absent at the award ceremony.

They're also absent in the briefing scene. There's no reason they can't just be in the crowd.

Yes. We don't accept This republic which has stood for a thousand years to be literally true, why accept this statement?

But "this republic" has stood for a thousand years.

Regardless, this is a rather slippery slope you're on, deciding that a narrator's overview can just be summarily ignored. It's not dialouge, after all. EDIT - Though, it seems likely from subsequent materials that, at the very least, not every Rebel was at Endor, so I wonder if the point isn't moot.

[Rogue 9]

To be fair, the Rebel leadership was rather monumentally stupid about it. In the radio dramatization, Leia specifically rejected evacuating the base because if they lost at Yavin, other worlds would be blown up anyway, so it didn't matter. The captain she was speaking to immediately accepted this non-reasoning. I balked at that when I first heard it as a child, and it doesn't make any more sense now.

[Elfdart]

In ROTJ (film), Mon Mothma makes the comment that the Imperial fleet is "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us." The implication is that the Rebels have forces sufficient to require the attention of the Imperial fleet (rather than the army, spec. forces, etc.) on a galactic scale, and the armada assembled at Sullust (not outside the galaxy, as the novelization suggests) is a task force intended specifically for the attack on DS2.

The Imperial fleet is spread across the galaxy because they are trying to find the rebel fleet and their main base. If the Rebel fleet at Endor is just a fraction of their warships, why would they be sending a medical ship, blockade runners and transports to attack the Death Star? The Rebellion has a shitload of warships, but only a dozen or so for Endor?

[McC]

The Imperial fleet is spread across the galaxy because they are trying to find the rebel fleet and their main base. If the Rebel fleet at Endor is just a fraction of their warships, why would they be sending a medical ship, blockade runners and transports to attack the Death Star? The Rebellion has a shitload of warships, but only a dozen or so for Endor?

The only purpose of the capital ships was to create a perimeter around the Death Star and engage any local defenses that might be there. They didn't expect to encounter a full Imperial task force waiting for them. They were woefully unprepared to deal with it, too. The entire operation hinged on the commando team bringing down the shields and the fighters getting into the Death Star to take out the reactor. So, no, you don't need a large force for that.

[TC Pilot]

You don't need a lot of ships to form a perimeter around a 900km diameter battlestation?

It's also worth pointing out the lack of reaction by the strike team at Executor and her escorts' presence that the Rebels expected at least something in the way of a fleet engagement.

On a side note, anyone have Truce at Bakura handy? I'm wondering what it says about the size and condition of the Rebel fleet at Endor.

[Knife]

Of course this begs the question of why the Rebellion would bring all their forces to a meeting. Less risky, perhaps, than bringing them all to a battle, but still hardly an intelligent or logical move. Frankly, the above quote is irrational, and the Star Wars Universe would be better off without it. However, by recognizing that the above description does not nessissarily refer to the fleet pressent at Endor, it may be possible to limit the damage, and avoid attempts to reduce the Rebellion only to the meagre fleet present at Endor, or to an organization commanded by tactically and strategically incompetant fools. After all, why the hell would the Rebellion deploy tankers against the Death Star? And at the end of the day, it is also simply a question of accuracy.

I prefer to see the Rebellion as more a cell structure than one big happy group of rebels myself, but that said; if they failed and the DS was operational it was only a matter of time before the Empire turned it against certain planets. So, having the whole of the rebellion uprooted and ready to move away from their home planets would be prudent after the Alderaan affair.

If they failed at Endor, it's more the reasonable the leadership expected to go into hiding in the rim on unpopulated planets that they could abandon quickly and not worry about civilains being exterminated by the DSII.

As for the attack fleet, I have no problem imagining that only a task force and not the entire rebel fleet went to Endor. There were expecting a small fight with an unoperational DS and some escorts. They knew the Emperor was going to be there so it's not unreasonable that they expected some sort of Imperial Naval presence just due to that, probably why Solo wasn't surprised to see a 'Command Ship' at Endor.

[Alyeska]

Something to consider. The Rebel fleet certainly looks small, but there are some important points in the battle where we start to catch glimpses of what the Rebel fleet has available. In one shot from the bridge of the Executor, there are a half dozen Mon-Cal cruisers visible from that single limited perspective. And we know that there were Mon-Cal ships behind the executor. In another shot of the battle there were 7 Nebulon-B frigates visible. And I believe Phong had information on there being three Home-One type ships at the battle.

[Singular Intellect]

The only purpose of the capital ships was to create a perimeter around the Death Star and engage any local defenses that might be there. They didn't expect to encounter a full Imperial task force waiting for them. They were woefully unprepared to deal with it, too. The entire operation hinged on the commando team bringing down the shields and the fighters getting into the Death Star to take out the reactor. So, no, you don't need a large force for that.

Sounds like the Rebellion is monumentally stupid. The Empire is undertaking a massive investment of manpower and resources to build their (second) huge battlestation, an extremely important military project. So important that the Emperor himself shows up to oversee it's progress. A target of similar scale having previously been destroyed in another incident with the Rebels because of overconfidence and a tactically flawed decision.

And yet the Rebels seriously expected that the Empire wouldn't have, if not directly present, a very large force ready to rapidly respond to any attempted attack upon the project?

Either the Rebels are retarded, or they think the Imperials are.

[Darth Hoth]

On a side note, anyone have Truce at Bakura handy? I'm wondering what it says about the size and condition of the Rebel fleet at Endor.

That book should not be trusted at face value with regards to anything approaching quantitative assessments. It is minimalist to put Stackpole and Zahn to shame; the author thought that the Empire (or, given a very generous interpretation, the Core Worlds) held about 12,000 inhabited planets and that the full Imperial Navy was at Endor . . .

[Knife]

I swear I posted something to this earlier this morning and have no idea what happened to my post.

Something to consider. The Rebel fleet certainly looks small, but there are some important points in the battle where we start to catch glimpses of what the Rebel fleet has available. In one shot from the bridge of the Executor, there are a half dozen Mon-Cal cruisers visible from that single limited perspective. And we know that there were Mon-Cal ships behind the executor. In another shot of the battle there were 7 Nebulon-B frigates visible. And I believe Phong had information on there being three Home-One type ships at the battle.

Indeed, in the duel with the Executor there is plainly two Home One type Star Cruisers, one on each flank of the SSD. Also to note in that duel of the battle, various other Liberty class and wingless Liberty class ships are in formation with the Star Cruisers. It seems the Mon Cal's fight in naval formations and in battle groups based off of the Cruisers.

As to the half dozen Mon Cal ships;

Shown here.

On the left there are clearly three wingless Liberty type ships with three more blobs that may or may not be the same. They could also be the medium transports due to their shape, it is hard to tell. However, from Akbar's view, Home One is on that side of the Executor, so Home One has at least three if not six Mon Cal Liberty (and it's subclass) escorts in view on it's left flank between the Star Cruiser and the Executor.

On the right of the picture, you can see two or three more blob-like ships. Again, don't know if they are Liberty (subclass) ships or not, though later with the loss of shields and command and control, you can see another Cruiser sail past on Executors right flank;

Shown here.

In the right side of this pic, there is the tell tale engine signature of the Home One type Star Cruiser with a wingless Liberty behind it. If you assume the other Star Cruiser had the same escorts as Home One; then when Admiral Akbar ordered all ships to attack the SSD, at least two battle groups of a Cruiser and at least 3-7 destroyer analogues apiece flanked the SSD.

Sounds like the Rebellion is monumentally stupid. The Empire is undertaking a massive investment of manpower and resources to build their (second) huge battlestation, an extremely important military project. So important that the Emperor himself shows up to oversee it's progress. A target of similar scale having previously been destroyed in another incident with the Rebels because of overconfidence and a tactically flawed decision.

The rebels brought at least two Star Cruisers, some where in the neighborhood of 14 or so destroyer analogues and a large contingent of second tier frigates, gunships and battlewagons. While not as big as the sector fleet of 25 Stardestroyers, a Star Cruiser and a Star Dreadnaught, it was pretty damn close for a bunch of rebels and that's with the Alliance not expecting a sector fleet to be there. Solo was unconcerned with only the SSD and a hand full of SD's in orbit around Endor, and seeing the rough size of the fleet sent to attack it, seems reasonable. Once again, the rebels knew Emperor Palpatine would be there, expecting little of the Imperial Navy is a stretch. They came with a fairly good chunk firepower even for a sector fleet. What the rebel fleet was worried about, I think, was that they A)lost the advantage of surprise; B) lost the advantage of position due to the Imperial pincher move; and c) had a healthy chunk of their actual battle navy there while a sector fleet is a dime a dozen for the Imperials.

[PainRack]

The way I see it, the Rebels would have had a central base from which to coordinate military opperations, but they probably did not keep their top leadership there most of the time, certainly not all simultaneously. Mon Mothma and Bel Iblis (who according to TTT left after Yavin), are not pressent in any shot of the Yavin base. The top Alliance leadership was probably kept mobile most of the time, on ships like Home One, to protect them from the Empire.

We DO see the Rebel military leadership, from Alderaanian generals to General Dodonna remainding behind.
However, why would you assume that the Senators and other political leaders deliberately came to the Yavin base just so they could participate in the Death Star attack? Even with hyperdrive speed, the lead time involved is relatively short.
It could very well had been a routine "meeting" of leaders who came to profess their support, or planning, or etc etc, and they decided to show up for the Death Star attack briefing so as to show their support for the mission before leaving.

On a side note, anyone have Truce at Bakura handy? I'm wondering what it says about the size and condition of the Rebel fleet at Endor.
You don't need a lot of ships to form a perimeter around a 900km diameter battlestation?

It's also worth pointing out the lack of reaction by the strike team at Executor and her escorts' presence that the Rebels expected at least something in the way of a fleet engagement.

On a side note, anyone have Truce at Bakura handy? I'm wondering what it says about the size and condition of the Rebel fleet at Endor.

The truce at bakura sourcebook states that the Rebel forces spent a short time at Endor to lick their wounds, although a complete retcon I seen suggest that the Rebels held on to Endor for a short while, establishing a military base so as to account for the SW comics and some older stories.(Presumably, the best way to hide is in plain sight. Or as the Chinese say, the most dangerous place to be in is the safest).

Can't remember how badly the fleet was, but it was definitely miminal compared to the sheer numbers they face(The entire sector fleet was there. Similarly, the Death Star sourcebook states that the local sector was made an oversector to accomodate the Death Star and more ships were assigned there, and Death Squadron was also despatched there).

[PainRack]

The problem with that interpretation is that it goes rather heavily against the text. I'll grant that it's hardly unambiguous, but it seems the most fitting interpretation of the quote is that they gathered with the intention of being present for the battle.

Sure. However, that interpretation itself is highly problematic. The Rebel leadership did not know the Death Star was coming in until Princess Leia had arrived. At some point from then on, the Rebel leadership learnt that the Death Star was incoming, and this was hours, a few days at MOST from G canon. The EU itself made it just hours. Given the speed of hyperdrive and the remoteness of the Yavin IV base, that's EXTREMELY short a time for the Rebel leaders to arrive.

Which explains why they chose to stand and fight over Yavin, since Leia was pretty much certain that they were being tracked. But that hardly explains why these "Senators and Generals," or Leia for that matter, decided to stay, endangering the lives of a large portion of the rebel leadership, both military and political, for absolutely no real advantage.

Given that said leaders were NOT present at the ceremony, with Princess Leia being the titular head, they must had escaped. The problem is, how critical was Princess Leia as a leader?

One could argue that given her exiled status and the changed nature of Alderaan continued importance she was no longer important as a political tool in the Empire.

Leia did. Besides, that pretty much completly flies in the face of the quote, suggesting Dodonna was just lying through his teeth. Awfully poor form to allow yourselves to be introduced as comrades who "have come to be with us in what may well prove to be the decisive moment" and then just bail on everyone, wouldn't you say?

They're politicians. Why would you

They're also absent in the briefing scene. There's no reason they can't just be in the crowd.

We DO see the crowd. They're full of Rebel personnel in uniform.

Regardless, this is a rather slippery slope you're on, deciding that a narrator's overview can just be summarily ignored. It's not dialouge, after all. EDIT - Though, it seems likely from subsequent materials that, at the very least, not every Rebel was at Endor, so I wonder if the point isn't moot.

Errr........Not exactly. It was narrator overview, however, it was also mingled with Lando viewpoint. Given the textual status of ROTJ( ANH was an entry in the Journal of Whillis), its arguable that the text in that point was written from Lando point of view AFTER the battle had happened. Consider again the "narrator" viewpoint in Hobbit, and Gandalf "correction" in excerpts about how the dwarves felt about Bilbo in the backstory/Unfinished tales later.

Given the difficulties, I suggest that its the narrator being hyperbolic.