Couple to have first GM baby

[Junghalli]

These sort of people would be hilarious if not for the preventable suffering they're so eager to inflict on people in the name of their retarded "principles". It's almost a pity we can't cure diseases by somehow magically transferring them to people who want the cures banned because of some totally irrational half-assed idea that they're somehow "immoral". These people are so eager to have others suffer for their abstract principles, let's see how they like a taste of those diseases themselves.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And that "bad thing" is of course humans improving their own species. BAD! Elliminating eye defects, heart problems, cancer and diabetes risk groups is BAD! Genetic supermen! GATTACCA!

What does that nucleotide sequence have to do with anything? You dont even have three complete codons.

That's exactly what they fear - that the normal people will become the "handicapped" and be regulated to sub-standard existence. And why not fear it? Isn't that what happens to the handicapped, sick, poor, and elderly in the US already?

Yes. But they have a national health service. Eventually, if the research is done and the techniques perfected, the procedure will become cheap enough to become a standard part of prenatal (or pre-pregnancy) care.

[Broomstick]

And that "bad thing" is of course humans improving their own species. BAD! Elliminating eye defects, heart problems, cancer and diabetes risk groups is BAD! Genetic supermen! GATTACCA!

What does that nucleotide sequence have to do with anything? You dont even have three complete codons.

It's a reference to a move by the name of Gattacca dealing with a future world were genetic engineering is common and your genes dictate your opportunities in life.

[Ender]

And that "bad thing" is of course humans improving their own species. BAD! Elliminating eye defects, heart problems, cancer and diabetes risk groups is BAD! Genetic supermen! GATTACCA!

What does that nucleotide sequence have to do with anything? You dont even have three complete codons.

Gattaca is an extremely good scifi movie starring Ethan Hawke and Jude Law. It is a murder mystery set in the future where there is ubiquitous genetic screening, testing, and manipulation. Big themes examined are how such technology would affect our culture, our biases, and out interaction. Also tackles nurture vs nature - do tapered genes mean that a person is better, or can a person filled with drive, determination, brains, and skill surpass such a "naturally" gifted person? And of course it looks at discrimination through culture though not law of a given minority. Strong performances, good plot whose end you don't see coming, and solid writing. Really good film, rent it when you get a chance.

It's a reference to a move by the name of Gattacca dealing with a future world were genetic engineering is common and your genes dictate your opportunities in life.

They didn't dictate your opportunities per say, it was more like the difference in having a college degree or not. It was more it had become the norm and thus there was a social discrimination against unaltered members rather than an institutional discrimination. The restriction for a GM person for the mission had nothing to do with them being overtly called out as inferior, so much as it was that the company had being modified as a criteria for the job - kinda sensible as it was a space mission to the gas giants. Uma Thurman's character was "flawed" yet she was still a high ranking executive in the company.


Man, I'm going to have to see this movie again now.

[Broomstick]

It's a reference to a move by the name of Gattacca dealing with a future world were genetic engineering is common and your genes dictate your opportunities in life.

They didn't dictate your opportunities per say, it was more like the difference in having a college degree or not. It was more it had become the norm and thus there was a social discrimination against unaltered members rather than an institutional discrimination. The restriction for a GM person for the mission had nothing to do with them being overtly called out as inferior, so much as it was that the company had being modified as a criteria for the job - kinda sensible as it was a space mission to the gas giants. Uma Thurman's character was "flawed" yet she was still a high ranking executive in the company.

Oh, please - if you don't have a college degree you still have a chance to obtain one. If your genes are bad (in Gattacca) you're just screwed. Get real. The main character is a non-modified person regulated to a job as janitor because of his genes, not his brains, skills, or drive. And I won't say more, because that would be a spoiler. Yeah, non-modifieds were regarded as inferior and doomed to a crap existence due to institutionalized discrimination. Please.


Man, I'm going to have to see this movie again now.[/quote]

[Ender]

It's a reference to a move by the name of Gattacca dealing with a future world were genetic engineering is common and your genes dictate your opportunities in life.

They didn't dictate your opportunities per say, it was more like the difference in having a college degree or not. It was more it had become the norm and thus there was a social discrimination against unaltered members rather than an institutional discrimination. The restriction for a GM person for the mission had nothing to do with them being overtly called out as inferior, so much as it was that the company had being modified as a criteria for the job - kinda sensible as it was a space mission to the gas giants. Uma Thurman's character was "flawed" yet she was still a high ranking executive in the company.

Oh, please - if you don't have a college degree you still have a chance to obtain one. If your genes are bad (in Gattacca) you're just screwed. Get real. The main character is a non-modified person regulated to a job as janitor because of his genes, not his brains, skills, or drive. And I won't say more, because that would be a spoiler. Yeah, non-modifieds were regarded as inferior and doomed to a crap existence due to institutionalized discrimination. Please.

It was explicitly stated in the film that it was illegal to discriminate on genetic grounds. So no, it was not an institutional discrimination. Social yes, but they make a clear point that the law prevents institutional discrimination. That was part of the point - even in an enlightened western first world country where we extend overt legal protections human nature would lead to social discrimination.

[Broomstick]

It was explicitly stated in the film that it was illegal to discriminate on genetic grounds. So no, it was not an institutional discrimination. Social yes, but they make a clear point that the law prevents institutional discrimination. That was part of the point - even in an enlightened western first world country where we extend overt legal protections human nature would lead to social discrimination.

Institutional discrimination doesn't have to be legal, it just has to exist within institutions. It is a form of social discrimination. "Illegal" to discriminate? The film makes it clear that, legal or not, the discrimination existed.

[PeZook]

Yeah, there does exist a risk where society would become heavily stratified, where a select few get the priviledges because of their superior genes...

But you know what? Gattaca made one key assumption: in the beginning, it's mentioned that the law forbids screening job candidates on the basis of their genes, and that it happened on a massive scale anyway. Thing is, nothing says it has to end that way,and the benefits are immense. The logic used to deny genetic screening (not even outright modification...) can be used to deny any sort of advantage to anyone, but that would be evil communism, right?

Gattaca at least explored those themes intelligently, though, so it's not really fair to slam the movie. It's more about idiots who watch a movie (any movie) and think "OHMYGOD THIS IS SO POSSIBLE IT WILL HAPPEN!!!!"

[Broomstick]

Right now we screen people for jobs based on physical traits. As long as it is truly based on what is actually required I don't think it's an issue, it's when artificial requirements are imposed that it becomes problematic.

And speaking of artificial, we do have the means to compensate for deficiencies with technology. If corrective eye lenses/surgery or hearing aids are sufficient to compensate for a sensory defect, for example, that defect can usually be disregarded. We don't relegate the near-sided to second-class citizenry, we fit them with eyeglasses or contacts or they can get LASIK so they can function as people with 20/20 vision.

Gattacca also explores that being a genetic superman does not guarantee either happiness or success, either. It's not just what you have, it's what you do with it.

[PeZook]

Right now we screen people for jobs based on physical traits. As long as it is truly based on what is actually required I don't think it's an issue, it's when artificial requirements are imposed that it becomes problematic.

Yeah, what Gattaca showed was enterprises taking the cheap way out: instead of tests and interviews, they ran a genetic test and based the application on that. The protagonist in the movie would probably cut it into the astronaut corps if they simply had him take physical tests, though his heart condition could possibly disqualify him even today (unless surgey could fix it..)

And speaking of artificial, we do have the means to compensate for deficiencies with technology. If corrective eye lenses/surgery or hearing aids are sufficient to compensate for a sensory defect, for example, that defect can usually be disregarded. We don't relegate the near-sided to second-class citizenry, we fit them with eyeglasses or contacts or they can get LASIK so they can function as people with 20/20 vision.

IIRC, the US Air Force allows people after LASIK to fly fighter planes, so I guess it's just fine with them

Gattacca also explores that being a genetic superman does not guarantee either happiness or success, either. It's not just what you have, it's what you do with it.

Yeah, the movie is way deeper than what idiots usually say about it

[Broomstick]

Right now we screen people for jobs based on physical traits. As long as it is truly based on what is actually required I don't think it's an issue, it's when artificial requirements are imposed that it becomes problematic.

Yeah, what Gattaca showed was enterprises taking the cheap way out: instead of tests and interviews, they ran a genetic test and based the application on that. The protagonist in the movie would probably cut it into the astronaut corps if they simply had him take physical tests, though his heart condition could possibly disqualify him even today (unless surgey could fix it..)

You'd think that if 70 year old John Glenn could withstand several g's to go into space (again) a younger person with a less-than-perfect heart would be able to, at least in some instances. It would depend on the problem. For short missions not so much a problem. For a longer-term mission maybe it is a legitimate concern.

The US does allow commercial pilots to return to the cockpit job after heart surgery or even heart attack IF they can still pass the cardiac requirements on the physical. There's at least one post-heart transplant US pilot out there flying. In the early 90's they finally got a clue it was safer to have the guys with issues come in for treatment rather than trying to fake their way through the tests. But that's only been possible with recent advances in cardiac medicine and treatment, it wasn't safe or possible in, say, 1950.

And speaking of artificial, we do have the means to compensate for deficiencies with technology. If corrective eye lenses/surgery or hearing aids are sufficient to compensate for a sensory defect, for example, that defect can usually be disregarded. We don't relegate the near-sided to second-class citizenry, we fit them with eyeglasses or contacts or they can get LASIK so they can function as people with 20/20 vision.

IIRC, the US Air Force allows people after LASIK to fly fighter planes, so I guess it's just fine with them

Yes, if by six months after the surgery the pilot's vision has stabilized and there are no complications such as halos, ghosts, starbursts, diminished contrast, or loss of night vision or any other complication. If you have any of those you will not fly for them ever again. So there is a bit of risk in getting the operation, and it works best on those needing only a minor correction. For those for whom it does work, though, the Air Force gets the benefit of flying talent that would otherwise be excluded from the service.

[Junghalli]

The protagonist in the movie would probably cut it into the astronaut corps if they simply had him take physical tests, though his heart condition could possibly disqualify him even today (unless surgey could fix it..)

Yeah, the movie sort of sabotaged it's own message there as far as I was concerned. I didn't see anything at all unreasonable about somebody being disqualified from a high profile space mission out to Saturn for a weak heart. It's already undoubtedly a highly competitive position where they're weeding out a handful of final candidates out of much larger numbers of qualified applicants, and there are very good reasons you'd want astronauts going to Saturn to be in peak physical health. Vincent would have ended up looking rather silly if the mission ended up getting massively complicated when one of the astronauts suffered a massive heart attack during the injection burn into Saturn orbit and was rendered incapacitated for the duration by complications (thus essentially proving the people who refused to let him on the mission right).

[Broomstick]

I'd like to point out, though, that what Vincent was "diagnosed" with at birth was NOT heart disease but the potential for heart disease. It is never actually established that he has heart disease. Yes, his heart rhythm is not as rock-stable as Mr. Genetic Superman's but one does not have to have a perfect rhythm to have a healthy heart.

One could argue, of course, that on a years-long voyage it is more risky to send someone with a high potential for having a problem rather than someone with a lower risk. Then again, that more physically perfect someone may be lacking in some other quality, such as determination, ambition, or intelligence, that may be equally necessary for the trip.

[Bounty]

I'd like to point out, though, that what Vincent was "diagnosed" with at birth was NOT heart disease but the potential for heart disease. It is never actually established that he has heart disease. Yes, his heart rhythm is not as rock-stable as Mr. Genetic Superman's but one does not have to have a perfect rhythm to have a healthy heart.

One could argue, of course, that on a years-long voyage it is more risky to send someone with a high potential for having a problem rather than someone with a lower risk. Then again, that more physically perfect someone may be lacking in some other quality, such as determination, ambition, or intelligence, that may be equally necessary for the trip.

The exact same thing happened in the real-life space program - Jim Lovell, the commander of the Apollo 13 mission, was passed up for the Mercury program due to a minuscule heart rhythm issue that might have turned into a problem at some later point. He explained it as NASA having the pick of the finest for their missions, so all things being equal they preferred an astronaut with zero flaws over an equally qualified astronaut who had even a minutely elevated risk (albeit a detectable one) of one day developing a flaw.

Even your "then again" applies, as Lovell was picked for the Gemini program - at that point his experience and skill as a test pilot outweighed the medical concerns.

The decision to disqualify someone from a mission due to a potential medical issue is a perfectly justifiable one, provided all other factors are equal. If you're sending up a $brazillion spaceship, I think you're entitled to leave it in the hands of a crew who are the absolute best you can find.

[PeZook]

Besides, there was a scene where Vincent just barely passes a cardio test and has problems afterwards, so his heart problems were quite real - he was just really, really determined, and the movie portrayed him qualifying for the mission as the hardest part, which it really wasn't.

[Broomstick]

The decision to disqualify someone from a mission due to a potential medical issue is a perfectly justifiable one, provided all other factors are equal. If you're sending up a $brazillion spaceship, I think you're entitled to leave it in the hands of a crew who are the absolute best you can find.

You are correct - IF all other factors are equal. They seldom are. You are correct that for a critical mission with a small group picking the best of the best applies, but in the Gattacca society one had the impression that even where it was not critical the gene-screening applied.

[Bounty]

The decision to disqualify someone from a mission due to a potential medical issue is a perfectly justifiable one, provided all other factors are equal. If you're sending up a $brazillion spaceship, I think you're entitled to leave it in the hands of a crew who are the absolute best you can find.

You are correct - IF all other factors are equal. They seldom are. You are correct that for a critical mission with a small group picking the best of the best applies, but in the Gattacca society one had the impression that even where it was not critical the gene-screening applied.

Then that society will be all the poorer for it. It's been a while, but did the Gattaca society have a way to screen for psychological defects too? You'd think that that would be a prime concern when picking a crew for a deep-space mission, even beyond their scientific skill or potential medical issues. There's no point in training a physically perfect überhuman if he breaks down from isolation or boredom.

[Broomstick]

The sad thing is, mental issues are frequently ignored in our own society. They can be very difficult to measure.

[Ender]

The decision to disqualify someone from a mission due to a potential medical issue is a perfectly justifiable one, provided all other factors are equal. If you're sending up a $brazillion spaceship, I think you're entitled to leave it in the hands of a crew who are the absolute best you can find.

You are correct - IF all other factors are equal. They seldom are. You are correct that for a critical mission with a small group picking the best of the best applies, but in the Gattacca society one had the impression that even where it was not critical the gene-screening applied.

Then that society will be all the poorer for it. It's been a while, but did the Gattaca society have a way to screen for psychological defects too? You'd think that that would be a prime concern when picking a crew for a deep-space mission, even beyond their scientific skill or potential medical issues. There's no point in training a physically perfect überhuman if he breaks down from isolation or boredom.

No, I'm pretty sure they didn't touch on the psyche. But then the point of the movie was to deal with themes of what makes you happy, nurture vs nature, etc rather than to fully flesh out a future society. So no points off for that in my book.

[Junghalli]

I'd like to point out, though, that what Vincent was "diagnosed" with at birth was NOT heart disease but the potential for heart disease. It is never actually established that he has heart disease.

No, he actually has a weak heart. He seems to have a minor heart attack or at least severe chest pains during one of the cardiovascular tests, and he probably only passed it because he was wearing a device that fed a recording of the other guy's heartbeat into the machine.

It's been a while, but did the Gattaca society have a way to screen for psychological defects too? You'd think that that would be a prime concern when picking a crew for a deep-space mission, even beyond their scientific skill or potential medical issues.

They mentioned that Vincent was considered a high risk for psychopathic behavior, so yes, they clearly can scan for genes that influence brain development and behavior. For something like picking people who can get along on a long space mission I doubt that would make a very good substitute for actual psych exams though, seeing as life experiences are such an enormous part of our personality.

[Mayabird]

I'd like to point out, though, that what Vincent was "diagnosed" with at birth was NOT heart disease but the potential for heart disease. It is never actually established that he has heart disease.

No, he actually has a weak heart. He seems to have a minor heart attack or at least severe chest pains during one of the cardiovascular tests, and he probably only passed it because he was wearing a device that fed a recording of the other guy's heartbeat into the machine.

The heck are you talking about? He was running at full speed for twenty minutes on a treadmill without allowing himself to even breathe hard (since if he did, he'd reveal that he wasn't the genetic Übermensch that he was posing as). Of course he was damn near ready to pass out at the end.

This whole Gattaca discussion could do with cutting and moving. I could go on for pages about the flaws and interpretations and the six-fingered pianist and the term paper I wrote on the movie for my only college English class.

[CaptainChewbacca]

In Gattaca, wasn't the guy's entire job interview for becoming the best astronaut in the Solar System just a urine test? 'Your genes are good, welcome aboard'.

[Mayabird]

Yeah, that was it, entirely. A "drug screening" that was an illegal DNA test. It's a rather paranoid society that they have, constant surveillance via DNA tests everywhere.

Though something to note: both the Gattaca tester and that boss guy who committed the murder obviously knew that Vincent wasn't the guy he claimed to be but they let it slide and even covered for him (what else could that murder be about).