Chinese Navy deploys for first time in 500 years

[Pelranius]

The Type 052Bs and 052Cs aren't too bad in their own right. I suspect one of the reasons why the Chinese deployed the 052C instead of some elderly Luda Destroyer was to see how effective the battle management system would work in an actual combat environment with potentially hundreds of targets around.

[Lonestar]

The Type 052Bs and 052Cs aren't too bad in their own right. I suspect one of the reasons why the Chinese deployed the 052C instead of some elderly Luda Destroyer was to see how effective the battle management system would work in an actual combat environment with potentially hundreds of targets around.

I would never call the HOA a "actual combat enviroment with potentially hundreds of targets around".

[Edi]

Ender, seriously, this is starting to look like you have a vendetta against Broomstick. She made a sarcastic glib comment to Stas, a crack that anyone here could have made. Hell, I could have made it if I were in the mood for it and happened to think of that. She then explained why she made it and what kind of attitudes she was targeting with it, which was all reasonable and right in accordance with the standards of conduct in N&P.

You just took the glib comment and pulled out all the stops on the flamethrower, with a reference to what she said about there being morons with reactionary attitudes out there. And we both know there are people exactly like that. She's also right in that it makes you look like one of them, even if we both know better. Try to chill out a bit, okay? That was uncalled for, no ifs, buts or maybes about it.

No. The question was asked of me, by Stas. Her response to Stas was her shoving words into my mouth, strawmanning me and lumping me in with the usual group that, as you point out is routinely mocked here. That we all know that these people are out there in no way changes the fact that this was a deliberate attempt to frame me as one of them by answering the question for me. Don't piss down my neck and tell me its raining Edi.

Let us consider a hypothetical thread dealing with, say, Israel. In said thread, you made a post critical of the governments actions. Someone asked you why you were critical of these actions. And before you get to respond, another poster pipes in "because he hates jews". Now this attitude is a known source for some criticism from ignorant parts of the population. However, that "joke" also just accused you of being an anti-Semite. According to what you are stating here, the response to that would be to "lulz 4 sure", and not flame the poster who just tried to poison the well against you. Somehow I doubt that would be the actual response in that situation.

If you want to chide me for something, I'll cop to being guilty of biting on her bait - stick your thumb in someone's eye and play the hurt victim afterwards is an old trick and I should have been smarter than falling for it and giving her another excuse to play drama queen. But this isn't a vendetta, this is me responding in kind when someone takes a shot at me.

Hmm, given this post and what Stas also said, point taken. The thing is, I did not see her post that way, but that may be because I know both you and her, Ender. Therefore I did not see it as being targeted slander toward you and why I saw it as an overreaction. I suspect some others might also see it the same way I did originally.

I'm not trying to just piss on you. I saw what looked to me like a vendetta post given the frame of reference I had at the time and the past record of things going up in flames between you and Broomstick (regardless of what caused those, they are separate). And given that it looked like that to me, I had to react to it. It's not personal. It damn well shouldn't be, as even though I count her a friend, I also count you as one. I wasn't taking sides with a person, I addressed the issue as it appeared to me and tried to do it with as little acrimony as possible. Hopefully that makes my position clearer.

[Pelranius]

The Type 052Bs and 052Cs aren't too bad in their own right. I suspect one of the reasons why the Chinese deployed the 052C instead of some elderly Luda Destroyer was to see how effective the battle management system would work in an actual combat environment with potentially hundreds of targets around.

I would never call the HOA a "actual combat enviroment with potentially hundreds of targets around".

Well, what I meant is that the 052C will have to track hundreds of civilian and potentially pirate vessels in the HoA area and prioritize on what they want to focus on. It's not really an actual combat environment like say a war in the Taiwan Straits, granted.

Should be a useful opportunity for us to gather some more SIGINT data on the Chinese navy.

[Lonestar]

Well, what I meant is that the 052C will have to track hundreds of civilian and potentially pirate vessels in the HoA area and prioritize on what they want to focus on. It's not really an actual combat environment like say a war in the Taiwan Straits, granted.

They could(and do) get all that type-training in the South China Sea and in some cases the Strait of Malacca. Both places also have heavier traffic on a # of hulls basis.

Should be a useful opportunity for us to gather some more SIGINT data on the Chinese navy.

Not more so than 7th Fleet going out on routine exercises. The most interesting bit of intel we will get out of this is just how well the PLAN functions far away from homebase. I wonder how quickly it will be before the PLAN vessels are hitting ports to gas up because their supply vessel cannot maintain the OP-TEMPO.

When the JMSDF deployed they managed to stay at sea for several weeks. Of course they also have a long expierience with gassing up with USN vessels, and making cross-pacific trips on a regular basis. PLAN? Not so much.

[K. A. Pital]

The PLAN should have AOR vessels if it's making such a deployment. After all, the USSR managed to build a quite decent speed AOR (Berezina) when it needed one, as well as Boris Chilikin class tankers, and that was back in the 1970s. Surely China should have something? I'm no PLAN expert, but I think they did build a few, just so they can deploy a few ships here and there long enough for it to be a real commitment.

[Lonestar]

The PLAN should have AOR vessels if it's making such a deployment. After all, the USSR managed to build a quite decent speed AOR (Berezina) when it needed one, as well as Boris Chilikin class tankers, and that was back in the 1970s. Surely China should have something? I'm no PLAN expert, but I think they did build a few, just so they can deploy a few ships here and there long enough for it to be a real commitment.

I'm not disputing that, indeed the article in the OP said a supply vessel was deploying with it, what I am saying is that deploying off your own coast and doing most of your refueling inport instead of at sea(when I was in we gassed up in port twice, both times as we were leaving the yards) is not conducive to building a long distance deployment doctrine, or training up on hypothetical doctrine.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It will not be very hilarious if they set themselves on fire while they gas up on sea especially if they get sloppy about it.

[Phantasee]

It will not be very hilarious if they set themselves on fire while they gas up on sea especially if they get sloppy about it.

Thank you for stating the obvious? It's never funny when someone fucks up and causes a ship to catch fire. What was your point?

[Broomstick]

Maybe he's trying to take a poke at the Chinese Navy?

It benefits no one if the Chinese have problems. Also, I'm assume there's some competency in their navy.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It will not be very hilarious if they set themselves on fire while they gas up on sea especially if they get sloppy about it.

Thank you for stating the obvious? It's never funny when someone fucks up and causes a ship to catch fire. What was your point?

It was to illustrate Lonestar's point about a lack of training for sea operations like this? Navy ships can do incredibly stupid things when the commander so and so fucks up? Like that USN submarine that surfaced right beneath a trawler?

[Pelranius]

The Chinese have brought replenishment ships and successfully refueled at sea when they did other long voyages such as port of calls for Europe and America, in addition to that mission to retrieve missile components from an ICBM test in the 80s. And the replenishment ship they brought along is supposed to be one of their best. Naturally, this doesn't forclude Murphy's Law by any chance.

Lonestar: The value of the HoA is that the 052C's crew has to prioritize and act on the intentions of an actual enemy is real time in a crowded maritime environment, something which just isn't really possible in the Straits of Malacca (Indonesia pirates have nothing on the Somalians).

Of course, there's a world of difference between trying to shoot down Super Hornets and trying to catch pirates on the other hand but you still get to see how the system works when there's an actual bad guy in the area (even if the said bad guy has no hope of posing the remotest of threats to your destroyers), as opposed to a naval exercise.

[Lonestar]

The Chinese have brought replenishment ships and successfully refueled at sea when they did other long voyages such as port of calls for Europe

Hitting a European port while driving a new Destroyer recently delivered from Russia is not the same as floating around the ocean for 4 months.

and America

Traveling to Guam is not "America". In fact, the farthest the PLAN has gone(as in, departs China and comes back) is Australia, with an Argus knock-off. Once again, going to point B from point A is not the same as floating around the ocean for several weeks at a time.

in addition to that mission to retrieve missile components from an ICBM test in the 80s

Whoop de do? Again, these are not deployments. They are not evolutions that put longterm stresses on supply chains, ships, and crews. It's going from point A to point B.

And the replenishment ship they brought along is supposed to be one of their best. Naturally, this doesn't forclude Murphy's Law by any chance.

I'm not too impressed with any non-USNS vessel(having gassed up with RFA, FN, and JMSDF vessels from the line-handler point of view) besides the JMSDF. If I think the RFA(and RN) are a bunch of turds who can't complete an evolution to save their life, why would I think the same of the PLAN, who has no actual experience with deployments?

Lonestar: The value of the HoA is that the 052C's crew has to prioritize and act on the intentions of an actual enemy is real time in a crowded maritime environment, something which just isn't really possible in the Straits of Malacca (Indonesia pirates have nothing on the Somalians).

Wrong: The Strait of Malacca(and SCS) is a much more crowded environment where it is difficult to distinguish between multiple contacts than the HoA(And you get the benefits of practicing against small craft from the Malaysian, Indonesian, and Sngaporean navies). The PLAN is deploying purely for a public relations/"see how long we can float around" exercise.

Next time don't tell someone who has been in both environments which is the more difficult one to operate in.

Of course, there's a world of difference between trying to shoot down Super Hornets and trying to catch pirates on the other hand but you still get to see how the system works when there's an actual bad guy in the area (even if the said bad guy has no hope of posing the remotest of threats to your destroyers), as opposed to a naval exercise.

There are "actual bad guys" for the PLAN right off the coast of China, what do you think the ROCN and 7th is to the Chinese?

[montypython]

There are "actual bad guys" for the PLAN right off the coast of China, what do you think the ROCN and 7th is to the Chinese?

Considering how the USN, Kaiserliche Marine, Soviet Navy et al all had to cut their teeth at some point doing long range operations even with possible hostile major fleet concentrations arrayed against them at those times, the PLAN deployment still serves a significant point of direct experience that pays off in many ways. Better now than later in any case.

[Lonestar]

Considering how the USN, Kaiserliche Marine, Soviet Navy et al all had to cut their teeth at some point doing long range operations even with possible hostile major fleet concentrations arrayed against them at those times, the PLAN deployment still serves a significant point of direct experience that pays off in many ways. Better now than later in any case.

So? I haven't disputed that. My point is that all of the reasons Pelranius gave, except one, are stupid. Indeed, I've been sitting her commenting that the PLAN's deployment is going to face severe difficulties because of the scope, while Pelranius has been prattling about how a couple weeks in the Pacific, or driving a Destroyer home from Russia, has given the PLAN the acumen to pull this off in a safe and sane manner.

[montypython]

Considering how the USN, Kaiserliche Marine, Soviet Navy et al all had to cut their teeth at some point doing long range operations even with possible hostile major fleet concentrations arrayed against them at those times, the PLAN deployment still serves a significant point of direct experience that pays off in many ways. Better now than later in any case.

So? I haven't disputed that. My point is that all of the reasons Pelranius gave, except one, are stupid. Indeed, I've been sitting her commenting that the PLAN's deployment is going to face severe difficulties because of the scope, while Pelranius has been prattling about how a couple weeks in the Pacific, or driving a Destroyer home from Russia, has given the PLAN the acumen to pull this off in a safe and sane manner.

The PLAN has conducted tours around the world with destroyers and support ships, much like the Great White Fleet did back in the day, so they do have experience performing underway replenishment for surface ships already. What this does is to provide experience for this in combat conditions.

[Lonestar]

The PLAN has conducted tours around the world with destroyers and support ships, much like the Great White Fleet did back in the day, so they do have experience performing underway replenishment for surface ships already. What this does is to provide experience for this in combat conditions.

Uh, no they haven't. They've gone from point A to point B and back again, or drove a destroyer from (European Russia) to China. Otherwise the farthest afield they've gone is to Australia and back.

All of which is different from a deployment with a combat/sea control mission, you dolt.

[Pelranius]

Well, they just replenished at sea. We'll sea how many times they can repeat it again.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/9077 ... 65022.html

And they have visited San Diego before with their own domestically designed and built gear.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=25643

Terribly sorry about the hyperlinks, but the computer I'm using right now doesn't have a copy and paste function (the mouse is broken, I think). My apologies.

This is their first long range deployment granted. My point is that they're using this as a way to test out there newest combat management system and get some experience with long range deployment. I'm just pointing out that they have manged to do long term operations of sorts previously, none of which naturally compare to sitting around in the HoA for a few months pirate hunting, so the PLAN isn't completely incompetent. I concede about the previously argued (about the Malacca Straits vs. Horn of Africa and issues involving political concerns) points, and thanks for the input.

[montypython]

The PLAN has conducted tours around the world with destroyers and support ships, much like the Great White Fleet did back in the day, so they do have experience performing underway replenishment for surface ships already. What this does is to provide experience for this in combat conditions.

Uh, no they haven't. They've gone from point A to point B and back again, or drove a destroyer from (European Russia) to China. Otherwise the farthest afield they've gone is to Australia and back.

All of which is different from a deployment with a combat/sea control mission, you dolt.

To further expand on Pelranius's examples, here's a link on a PLAN visit to the Royal Navy base at Portsmouth:

PLAN visits HMNB Portsmouth

So, yeah, the PLAN has done long-range round-the-world replenishment already.

[Lonestar]

To further expand on Pelranius's examples, here's a link on a PLAN visit to the Royal Navy base at Portsmouth:

PLAN visits HMNB Portsmouth

So, yeah, the PLAN has done long-range round-the-world replenishment already.

Listen to me, you idiot, since you obviously failed reading comprehension in Grade School

GOING FROM POINT A TO POINT B IS NOT THE SAME AS DEPLOYING ON A SEA CONTROL MISSION.

How fucking hard is it for you two to wrap this around your head?

[Phantasee]

Lonestar, he may understand it better if you explained the difference between going from Point A to Point B and sitting around the HoA watching pirates.