Semi-Viable Mecha Idea? [cont']

[Ford Prefect]

Please tell me if I'm stretching anyone's suspension of disbelief here

Mine, right here. You're looking at this in the exact wrong way. Once again mecha are a reason unto themselves. You want to have them, then have them, and don't bother trying to figure out little roles they can fill. Just have them be consistent: that's all that anyone can ask.

[Formless]

Right, because the point of this thread is exactly what again? OH RIGHT to find semi-viable roles that mechs can fill! That's all I am trying to do here. Go stick your head in a fridge for a while, I'm looking at it the same way you are. For any one of those roles I described, you can probably make some kind of hover vehicle that uses helicopter or similar rotary technology to avoid all the trouble of articulated joints and the like, but as roles for a mech they are fairly consistent, and all follow a pattern of what they are around for; crazy ass architecture and 3d environments. I was asking if it was breaking suspension of disbelief in the sense that I am trying to avoid it seeming wanktastic, not that I expect realism from these ideas. 'Cause I really don't.

[Bounty]

Ceremonial bodyguards. I'd be perfectly willing to accept 'mecha' as a form of conspicuous consumption for an absolute ruler of some kind; one nutty enough to take the traditional guy-with-halberd to a whole new level of bling. In that role they don't have to be practical and they don't have to be cost-effective: they just need to look impressive and show the world just how much money and resources their owner can spare to look cool. If that's not a mecha niche, I don't know what is.

[Ford Prefect]

Right, because the point of this thread is exactly what again? OH RIGHT to find semi-viable roles that mechs can fill!

Look up and to your right. See that thing a few metres above your head? That was the point. I'm going to repeat myself. If you do not understand what is a very simple concept, then you aren't worth the time to talk to. But hey, you can go ahead and try to come up with bullshit justifications for a narrative device which is explicitly based on superheroism. Protip: You can't, so don't try. If you think that sounds defeatist, then you're an idiot. No amount of fluff writing will ever actually justify such a complex mechanical system with very, very few practical benefits as your standard human-shaped mecha. You can say 'oh, they're for such and such role and terrain', but I can gaurantee that for any given terrain and role, there is a non-mecha solution for it.

What you failed to pick up from my post is that mecha are a stylistic decision. They are a genre convention. You have mecha because you want the visceral sensation of giant mechanical monster stomping around and hacing each other to bits with tank sized axes. It can be portrayed in an any number of ways, from the blatant superheroes of Mazinger Z or Getter Robo to the grit and metal and drama of something like Mobile Suit Gundam or Armoured Trooper VOTOMS. Trying to come up with exceedingly unusual niche roles totally defeats the purpose of having mecha in the first place. If you're that concerned with realistic weapon system you wouldn't have mecha to begin with.

[TheLostVikings]

Well a for using the four-legged-mountain-mecha-idea the BigDog would be a natural point of departure, considering that transporting weapons/supplies trough inaccessible terrain is exactly what the army intends to use it for (if it ever proves viable that is).

Here is a video demonstrating it traversing various terrain, handling slippery ice, correcting its balance after getting kicked, jumping over obstacles, and generally doing its thing. They haven't lost founding yet, so there most at least be a glimmer of hope that it ends up useful for something... maybe.

Of course depending on how strictly you define "legs", a jeep sized version of this robot would probably be a much more cost efficient way of getting around on "legs". I certainly would love to see an amphibious personnel carrier version with that whee... erm I mean leg arrangement.

[Formless]

Look up and to your right. See that thing a few metres above your head? That was the point. I'm going to repeat myself. If you do not understand what is a very simple concept, then you aren't worth the time to talk to. But hey, you can go ahead and try to come up with bullshit justifications for a narrative device which is explicitly based on superheroism. Protip: You can't, so don't try. If you think that sounds defeatist, then you're an idiot. No amount of fluff writing will ever actually justify such a complex mechanical system with very, very few practical benefits as your standard human-shaped mecha. You can say 'oh, they're for such and such role and terrain', but I can gaurantee that for any given terrain and role, there is a non-mecha solution for it.

What you failed to pick up from my post is that mecha are a stylistic decision. They are a genre convention. You have mecha because you want the visceral sensation of giant mechanical monster stomping around and hacing each other to bits with tank sized axes. It can be portrayed in an any number of ways, from the blatant superheroes of Mazinger Z or Getter Robo to the grit and metal and drama of something like Mobile Suit Gundam or Armoured Trooper VOTOMS. Trying to come up with exceedingly unusual niche roles totally defeats the purpose of having mecha in the first place. If you're that concerned with realistic weapon system you wouldn't have mecha to begin with.

Seems SOMEONE didn't read my post all the way through. I said that all I'm after is something that is relatively free of wank, you idiot. For the second time, I'm not after realistic weapons, I'm after the same freaking thing every other person in this thread is after, dumbass. You must not have read the OP either, or I wouldn't have to explain this to you. missing the point is more in your department then mine.

I know very well that it is a stylistic convention, now how to do that in a style that seems less like you are grabbing at straws, and more like you thought it through? Superheroism or no, its the difference between Superman defying every physical law in the books, and Batman merely going against feasibility. Either way its unrealistic, but one way is MORE realistic then the other. Just like your beloved Mobile Suit Gundam (the original idea) is more realistic then an Evangelion, my walker is more realistic still. It is still unrealistic, but it fulfills the thread's goal of finding a believable and semi-viable role for mechs. If you disagree with that goal, why the fuck are you even posting in this thread?

P.S. My mech is NOT a humanoid, you illiterate. Read the thread and notice that I was bouncing off Shroom's idea for a multi-armed space mech. In fact, if you are going to argue with me, why aren't you arguing with him? Or with every other poster in the thread? I imagine that it has something to do with your IQ (lack thereof), but I could be wrong. (like hell I am)

This argument is pointless.

[Darth Ruinus]

Is this that Gasaraki thing you guys were talking about?

[TheMuffinKing]

Is this that Gasaraki thing you guys were talking about?

Thats the series all right, and indicative of the mech wank described, however the test is in the first or second episode, this clip is like the 5th or 6th in the series. I forgot how badly portrayed armored warfare with IFVs/AFVs and other is in this series.

[Sky Captain]

Mecha in mountains or any other rocky terrain is going to be very noisy even if power source is quiet it will rattle and accidentally kick over the rocks thus alerting enemy to it`s presence. If your military wants to clear out some insurgents hiding in mountains stealthy movement is going to be very important otherwise they will just evade or even ambush your forces.

Fastest way to effectively take out enemy positions in mountains would be few lightly equipped scouts to spot enemy positions and then call supersonic fighter bombers to do the dirty job. I think this is what US did in Afghanistan to destroy Taliban tunnel complexes.

[Darth Ruinus]

Thats the series all right, and indicative of the mech wank described, however the test is in the first or second episode, this clip is like the 5th or 6th in the series. I forgot how badly portrayed armored warfare with IFVs/AFVs and other is in this series.

Ok, I'm pretty sure then, that this is what you are refering to. Man, I had to watch the first episode to find this thing, and this stuff is pretty boring. Whats up with those wierd dance things and gravity fields and such? Are there monsters in this?

[Ford Prefect]

Seems SOMEONE didn't read my post all the way through. I said that all I'm after is something that is relatively free of wank, you idiot. For the second time, I'm not after realistic weapons, I'm after the same freaking thing every other person in this thread is after, dumbass. You must not have read the OP either, or I wouldn't have to explain this to you. missing the point is more in your department then mine.

I know very well that it is a stylistic convention, now how to do that in a style that seems less like you are grabbing at straws, and more like you thought it through? Superheroism or no, its the difference between Superman defying every physical law in the books, and Batman merely going against feasibility. Either way its unrealistic, but one way is MORE realistic then the other. Just like your beloved Mobile Suit Gundam (the original idea) is more realistic then an Evangelion, my walker is more realistic still. It is still unrealistic, but it fulfills the thread's goal of finding a believable and semi-viable role for mechs. If you disagree with that goal, why the fuck are you even posting in this thread?

P.S. My mech is NOT a humanoid, you illiterate. Read the thread and notice that I was bouncing off Shroom's idea for a multi-armed space mech. In fact, if you are going to argue with me, why aren't you arguing with him? Or with every other poster in the thread? I imagine that it has something to do with your IQ (lack thereof), but I could be wrong. (like hell I am)

This argument is pointless.

You're hilarious. Why don't you go and look at the OP for this thread. Notice how it's a total piece of bullshit necromancy that doesn't posit anything of value or ask and questions? Even if you were talking about the very original question for this thread, you'd be wrong, because it was originally a question about a specific mecha idea that a poster had, and they were curious if it was viable at all (which it wasn't). So yeah, I did read the OP. I decided to reply to you because you asked for a fucking reply. You asked 'does this stretch anyone's suspension of disbelief' and guess what, it did, just like any other attempt to create 'plausible' mecha. It is not possible to invent a plausible military role for mecha. Only the most ridiculously niche situations could 'justify' them, and there are certainly better tools for those roles. Just by virtue of being pigeonholed into such unusual roles means that it is not believable. You could write whole essays on the utility multi-legged of climbing mecha for combat in unusually spacious cave systems or extremely unlikely zero-gravity cityscapes but you know what? It would actually be less convincing by virtue of being so specific.

[Formless]

Alright Ford, it seems I misspoke when I asked if it strains SOD. What I really meant was, "how rediculous is this idea?" Some ideas that have been passed around have serious flaws of their own right, ignoring the general issues with Mecha. I wanted to know if my idea had any flaws that were NOT related to the fact that Mecha are a flawed idea all around. Now do you understand what I was getting at? NOT a recap of the fact that Mecha are stupid, but to see if there were any specific issues with my idea that anyone could see.

Jeez!

[TheMuffinKing]

Thats the series all right, and indicative of the mech wank described, however the test is in the first or second episode, this clip is like the 5th or 6th in the series. I forgot how badly portrayed armored warfare with IFVs/AFVs and other is in this series.

Ok, I'm pretty sure then, that this is what you are refering to. Man, I had to watch the first episode to find this thing, and this stuff is pretty boring. Whats up with those wierd dance things and gravity fields and such? Are there monsters in this?

Yeah, this is probably the most boring series ever produced, in spite of how awesome it potentially was. The back story is that throughout history in fuedal Japan, disputes would be resolved by use of mech duels where dancers dance's would open portals to another dimension, allowing the gasaraki (being from said dimension) to possess the dancer's bodies and power the demon mecha. Somewhere along the line, cloning of gasaraki/demon mecha cells comes into play and is a big part of how the JGSDF mechs and the fakes operate. There is one scene of mecha combat between the demon mech and a regular mech, a few scenes of mech on tank and mech on mech action, and intolerable hours of exposition, much of it not related to the cool stuff in any way. They had a potentially cool idea and fuckered it up. I probably missed a few points, but I'm sure experts will correct me.

[FOG3]

Ok, I'm pretty sure then, that this is what you are refering to. Man, I had to watch the first episode to find this thing, and this stuff is pretty boring. Whats up with those wierd dance things and gravity fields and such? Are there monsters in this?

That's worse then MADOX. MADOX was at least kind of plausible as a rigged test. They did make one not exactly stable or professional guy have to control an entire platoon of tanks via remote control, and weren't exactly interested in losing the female pilot/developer. Plus they did have the same guy PWN the MADOX in a little itty bitty Airborne Tank afterwards.

That was just stupid. Rockets that can somehow bury themsleves in concrete, repeately, and still use said concrete to haul a multiton war machine up a multistory building by a pair of winches, and nobody is going to notice? At least the knee hit from the IFV and otherwise was really them playing laser tag instead of actual live ammo. Plus what does it say about your animation budget when you have your super mechs just barely keeping up with a turret that's probably traversing slower at a rate I'm pretty sure is slower then that of a battleships main battery? And to justify it all with liberal application of the word advanced the same way Trek uses Quantum, pathetic. Send Killgore in his Little Turtle after the buggers.

[VF5SS]

Can we have the same thread for starfighters?

[Samuel]

Can we have the same thread for starfighters?

Mechs are more plausible than starfighters.

[MJ12 Commando]

Mechs are more plausible than starfighters.

Debatable. A starfighter, after all, is a missile that comes back to you after deploying its terminal stage. I can think of a few situations where you might want that. If the drive components are very expensive and you have some way to reduce the hard limits on acceleration meat and bone and biological reflexes force you into there could be a reason to use a starfighter as your missile's "first stage" and still end up with some degree of cost-effectiveness.

Well of course you'd have to posit that smaller drives simply aren't as fuel-efficient or something and run out of gas way too quick or something else which explains why you're not just sending the missiles off on their own, but that's peanuts in justification. I can't contrive of a situation outside of Rule of Cool where you'd want a mech.

[Samuel]

Mechs are more plausible than starfighters.

Debatable. A starfighter, after all, is a missile that comes back to you after deploying its terminal stage. I can think of a few situations where you might want that. If the drive components are very expensive and you have some way to reduce the hard limits on acceleration meat and bone and biological reflexes force you into there could be a reason to use a starfighter as your missile's "first stage" and still end up with some degree of cost-effectiveness.

Well of course you'd have to posit that smaller drives simply aren't as fuel-efficient or something and run out of gas way too quick or something else which explains why you're not just sending the missiles off on their own, but that's peanuts in justification. I can't contrive of a situation outside of Rule of Cool where you'd want a mech.

That is handled better by missile buses.

Mechs are 2nd option tech, not completely obsolete by computers tech.

[Shroom Man 777]

A militarized Space Shuttle or Dyna-Soar would be pretty much a space fighter, won't it? Especially if they're equipped with BOTH orbit-to-earth (strategic) weapons and orbit-to-orbit weapons to deal with killer satellites and other militarized spacecraft.

You can make an effective "space fighter" with modern tech. You can't with mecha.

[Samuel]

A militarized Space Shuttle or Dyna-Soar would be pretty much a space fighter, won't it? Especially if they're equipped with BOTH orbit-to-earth (strategic) weapons and orbit-to-orbit weapons to deal with killer satellites and other militarized spacecraft.

You can make an effective "space fighter" with modern tech. You can't with mecha.

Not really. They are more like space freightors converted into missle boats. Space fighters are 1 to 2 manned.

And we can make mecha. In Space!

[Shroom Man 777]

So if the Space Shuttle or the Dyna-Soar had but two people in em, they'd be actual-factual space fighters?

All real-life fighters do is chuck missiles anyway.

[MJ12 Commando]

That is handled better by missile buses.

Mechs are 2nd option tech, not completely obsolete by computers tech.

An AI space fighter is still a space fighter. Like Shroom Man said, the majority of a modern fighter's mission is firing missiles, so a missile bus can still be considered a "fighter".

[Formless]

An AI space fighter is still a space fighter. Like Shroom Man said, the majority of a modern fighter's mission is firing missiles, so a missile bus can still be considered a "fighter".

True, but for its use in Sci-fi, I am reminded of the Zeroth law for the second time in this discussion.