Solauren wrote:Star Trek;
Another way the transporter is underused (probably more so for Borg + Dominion transporters).
use a series of transporter relay satelites, and literally beam people from Earth to Vulcan and back. You'd establish a 'transporter highway', and be able to move materials and personelle far faster then Warp drive allows.
Unless transporter signals propagate faster then c, that shouldn't be physically possible.
Even if the signal itself is FTL, transports generally take place at a range of well less then a light second, and take at least several seconds for the full cycle to take place, which is effectively STL. Besides, even with a range of a full light second, you'd need over 31.5 million relay stations to travel just one light year, and in a universe where FTL drives are cheap and small enough to fit in small shuttles, to boot.
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Solauren wrote:Star Trek;
Another way the transporter is underused (probably more so for Borg + Dominion transporters).
use a series of transporter relay satelites, and literally beam people from Earth to Vulcan and back. You'd establish a 'transporter highway', and be able to move materials and personelle far faster then Warp drive allows.
Unless transporter signals propagate faster then c, that shouldn't be physically possible.
Even if the signal itself is FTL, transports generally take place at a range of well less then a light second, and take at least several seconds for the full cycle to take place, which is effectively STL. Besides, even with a range of a full light second, you'd need over 31.5 million relay stations to travel just one light year, and in a universe where FTL drives are cheap and small enough to fit in small shuttles, to boot.
I remember the DS9 episode where a holographic judge sits real-time and sends Bashir's Dad to prison for breaking the genetic modification laws. So they have figured out how to transit large bits of data long range and instantaneously. The question might simple be of bandwidth. Can you send enough of a signal for a transporter.
Darth Hoth wrote:
It was not my idea originally, I only read that someone thought so (in a SWvST thread around here a couple of months ago, I think). Though, if the objective was a simple organelle count, why would he need to send data for analysis if his comm could scan the sample at a sufficient magnification to discern them? Of course, that scene was badly written either way.
A digital camera can take a photograph of a flock of birds. It can't count how many are there. You'd need to send the image to a computer with analysis software (or count by hand) to do so. Of course, bloodwork is substantially different, but the point remains; imaging is not the same as analysis. Presumably telling the difference between medi-chlorains and mitochondria is quite difficult!
Well, whatever; it is not as though the more mundane explanation does not make better sense canonically.
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Bilbo wrote:
I remember the DS9 episode where a holographic judge sits real-time and sends Bashir's Dad to prison for breaking the genetic modification laws. So they have figured out how to transit large bits of data long range and instantaneously. The question might simple be of bandwidth. Can you send enough of a signal for a transporter.
A hologram is going to take a lot less bandwidth than enough information to reconstruct a complex object, sooo...
Zixinus wrote:Regarding replicators: I never understood that in case of a Borg attack, why don't they just order a couple of Tommy guns and kill the horde that has a grave weakness to bullets? Hell, I'm sure that they can make something as simple as a Sten gun on demand. I can get why they don't have one around for just such occasions, but when you know that you have Borg on-board, why not use the replicators at hand, a device that can manufacture anything?
Personally I've always held to the theory that the Borg could adapt to bullets, for precisely this reason, but there's no way for me to prove it.
Samuel wrote:I know the one they have in Wars is a portal, but given it is one of a kind I think that if they have teleport tech it will be teleporter style.
As Batman (if I recall correctly) pointed out, it cannot simply be "one-of-a-kind", "lost tech", or else every intelligence and security agency would be hunting little Magwit for it (Wookiee said he had several, but I cannot verify this independently). It was evidently commonplace enough that it did not bother the bigwigs.
I can't recall claiming that? And nobody bothering to hunt it down doesn't mean it's commonplace. It might simply be useless for anything but stage magic. We don't know how far if at all the technology can be scaled up, there may be oodles of commonplace phenomena interfering with the transfer process (hello, Star Trek transporters ), there's the philosophical angle already mentioned (I'm reminded of the anti-teleportation song from HHGTTG ), we simply don't know enough about the technology to assume it should be more widely used or be worth hunting down. Which, if memory serves, is what I said the LAST time the blasted thing came up.
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Zixinus wrote:Regarding replicators: I never understood that in case of a Borg attack, why don't they just order a couple of Tommy guns and kill the horde that has a grave weakness to bullets? Hell, I'm sure that they can make something as simple as a Sten gun on demand. I can get why they don't have one around for just such occasions, but when you know that you have Borg on-board, why not use the replicators at hand, a device that can manufacture anything?
Personally I've always held to the theory that the Borg could adapt to bullets, for precisely this reason, but there's no way for me to prove it.
Why? Given that there's exactly ZERO evidence for the Borg adapting to KE/momentum attacks while there's plenty of evidence for Starfleet being morons them simply never thinking of it is a perfectly valid explanation.
Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons. Leave alone the fact that since there's plenty of materials replicators can't recreate, gunpowder/cordite may be among them, it's not unthinkable the peace-loving TNG Feds would have hardwired their replicators so they CAN'T replicate weapons.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Bilbo wrote:
I remember the DS9 episode where a holographic judge sits real-time and sends Bashir's Dad to prison for breaking the genetic modification laws. So they have figured out how to transit large bits of data long range and instantaneously. The question might simple be of bandwidth. Can you send enough of a signal for a transporter.
A hologram is going to take a lot less bandwidth than enough information to reconstruct a complex object, sooo...
But it means that they can do FTL long range real time communication. Which means it becomes purely an engineering issue as they learn how to up the bandwidth. It would not have to be instantaneous. Even if transport took 10 minutes you just would create a buffer on the receiving end. The pattern wouldnt be materialized till the entire transport was done.
Also you could use it for other things as well. Instantaneous transport of critical supplies would be a lot faster than sending them on a ship.
Batman wrote:I can't recall claiming that? And nobody bothering to hunt it down doesn't mean it's commonplace. It might simply be useless for anything but stage magic. We don't know how far if at all the technology can be scaled up, there may be oodles of commonplace phenomena interfering with the transfer process (hello, Star Trek transporters ), there's the philosophical angle already mentioned (I'm reminded of the anti-teleportation song from HHGTTG ), we simply don't know enough about the technology to assume it should be more widely used or be worth hunting down. Which, if memory serves, is what I said the LAST time the blasted thing came up.
Sorry, upon checking it was actually GR who said it; I misattributed it to you because you were the most prominent in that particular sub-debate.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons. Leave alone the fact that since there's plenty of materials replicators can't recreate, gunpowder/cordite may be among them, it's not unthinkable the peace-loving TNG Feds would have hardwired their replicators so they CAN'T replicate weapons.
Did they not catch a junior officer trying to replicate that TR-116 on DS9? The guy that collected weapons?
Last edited by Aaron on 2009-01-05 05:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Batman wrote:Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons.
Well, they did it in TOS with their assembly facilities, in 'A Private Little War' to make flintlocks. And IIRC, there was a 'replicator pattern' for the TR-116.'
Also, firearms are projectile weapons. So are crossbows.
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Batman wrote:Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons. Leave alone the fact that since there's plenty of materials replicators can't recreate, gunpowder/cordite may be among them, it's not unthinkable the peace-loving TNG Feds would have hardwired their replicators so they CAN'T replicate weapons.
Didn't some captain state in the series that replicator technologies could be used to create firearms, and thus refuse to give it to some such race? I think it might've been Janeway when she first met the Kazon...
Batman wrote:Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons.
Well, they did it in TOS with their assembly facilities, in 'A Private Little War' to make flintlocks.
Thanks for the correction.
And IIRC, there was a 'replicator pattern' for the TR-116.
There being a replicator pattern doesn't automatically mean your run of the mill shipboard replicator can create it, but duly noted.
Also, firearms are projectile weapons. So are crossbows.
I was, probably incorrectly on hindsight, using firearms to include phasers and their ilk, and thus specified projectile weapons to distinguish from that.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Samuel wrote:I find it reasonable they would be a bit careful given that it is messing with the foundation of reality.
Uh, how is that even remotely relevant, and what makes you think all temporal manipulation is 'messing with the foundation of reality', any more than all FTL is violating causality and more or less impossible in a realistic universe? Shows with time travel CLEARLY don't have a problem with the cosmic censor or the universe disintegrating, and like the example says, even people who are supposed to be 'masters' of such manipulation simply don't use it to it's fullest potential. Hell, many of these shows EXPLICITLY have the ability to suppress LOGIC ITSELF! Regardless, it's not even necessary to travel in time to have temporal manipulation tech; I understand Star Wars must use temporal manipulation to offset the side effects of their absurdly fast FTL.
I hear 'being a bit careful' because an irrelevant reason means it's not underusing the technology?
MJ12 Commando wrote:Well every bit of science fiction has technologies that they randomly put in and the implications of (X) never get thought about ever. Probably for good reason because they'd break the universe wide open.
So here's a thread for your favorite/least favorite technologies that would have world-changing implications if they stopped hugging the idiot ball so tightly.
My most recent (ie, the one most at the top of my head) vote would be for the Asgard core and the Merlin cloaking device from SG-1.
According to Thor, the Asgard core contains "everything" the Asgard knows, likely including detailed information on how to build whatever technology the Asgard had, but the writers have not explored the core much at all. At the very least, quasi limited replication should be possible, as we saw in the last episode of SG-1, for all 304s equipped with the core. Time dilation was purpose built into the core, and also capable of being used, which could be of tactical use when there's a need to buy more time for something.
Merlin's cloak has been conveniently forgotten now on several occasions, Spoiler
most recently in the last episode of Atlantis
. We learned that Carter was going to try to build her own Merlin cloak with the help of said Asgard core's replication technology. Her chances of success remain unclear, as Carter didn't get the chance to really dig deep into building it before deciding they wouldn't phase the ship in time before being hit, but she seemed hopeful that she might be able to do it. Regardless, we know there is one device still in existence, but despite Carter's personal experience with cloaking Earth in a protective field to keep enemies from harming it, we did not see it used either when the Ori showed up to Earth nor later when there was a real threat about to fire on the planet. The device has not been referenced in any way since the last episode of SG-1.
For Stargate ,these two technologies really jumped the technological shark, as once they were used (or said to contain "everything") it was hard to pull back from what was done. The "everything" core was a huge blunder...the writers would have been better to simply suggest that they gave Earth the few tweaks we see in the final episode, not the whole damn encyclopedia of their knowledge. Merlin's cloak, imbued with enough power (a properly charged ZPM would suffice) gobbling up a planet should never have taken place either. Given that we don't see it used again after Carter returns to her own reality, it should likely have just burned itself out at that moment, and the problem would have been solved. Instead, the audience (now used to the writers telling us why they can't use X technology to solve Y problem, as was common in the earlier seasons of SG-1, and one of their better features) is left wondering why we never see this technology again (in the case of the latter, to perform a function we know it can perform).
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Batman wrote:Why? Given that there's exactly ZERO evidence for the Borg adapting to KE/momentum attacks while there's plenty of evidence for Starfleet being morons them simply never thinking of it is a perfectly valid explanation.
Well, personally I prefer the explanation that doesn't rely on everyone being total morons, but like I said I can't prove anything.
Solauren wrote:Star Trek;
Another way the transporter is underused (probably more so for Borg + Dominion transporters).
use a series of transporter relay satelites, and literally beam people from Earth to Vulcan and back. You'd establish a 'transporter highway', and be able to move materials and personelle far faster then Warp drive allows.
At a range per relay station of 40,000km, a trip of (for example) 10 light years would require roughly 2.4 billion relay stations. Maybe they should stick with warp drive.
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Zixinus wrote:Regarding replicators: I never understood that in case of a Borg attack, why don't they just order a couple of Tommy guns and kill the horde that has a grave weakness to bullets? Hell, I'm sure that they can make something as simple as a Sten gun on demand. I can get why they don't have one around for just such occasions, but when you know that you have Borg on-board, why not use the replicators at hand, a device that can manufacture anything?
Personally I've always held to the theory that the Borg could adapt to bullets, for precisely this reason, but there's no way for me to prove it.
What does it mean to "adapt" to bullets? Don't tell me you think "adapt" means "become invulnerable to". We can adapt to bullets today; we put on body armour. But that doesn't make us invulnerable.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Junghalli wrote:Well, personally I prefer the explanation that doesn't rely on everyone being total morons, but like I said I can't prove anything.
The problem is that your explanation is silly. Besides, it doesn't even stand up to evidence. We know that Borg Drones can by killed by things that piece their bodies and do brute physical damage. That Evil Alien Dude in "Scorpion" in VOY was stacking piles of drones ceiling high with just its claws. If the Borg could adapt to things that impinge on their bodies in unfortunate ways, they would have done so before the Evil Alien Dude massacred significant amounts of them.
You are using "adapt" like a buzzword. It's not a magic "well, they've sampled Weapon X, now it doesn't work anymore*". The only thing we've actually seen them do that to is phasers, which are notorious for being frequency dependent. As Mike notes, they could wear body armor, but everyone does that. It's alot more sensible that the Borg can generate a low matter interaction field that they can tune so the absorption spectra of the field matches the emission of the phasers being fired at them.
*Silly thought, this sentence makes me think of the Borg adapting to Wolverine.
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Batman wrote:Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Federation shipboard replicators create firearms, leave alone projectile weapons.
Besides the other incidents mentioned, there was a DS9 episode where a leftover anti-rebellion program was activated. At one point it materialized automated phasors in replicators to shoot at the protagonists. Of course those were Cardassian replicators, but their technology is Fed-equivalent.
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Darth Wong wrote:What does it mean to "adapt" to bullets? Don't tell me you think "adapt" means "become invulnerable to". We can adapt to bullets today; we put on body armour. But that doesn't make us invulnerable.
Adapt as in modify their personal shields to be able to repell them.
Edit: anyway, this is a discussion that's been had before, and I'm not trying to start a debate on it. I'll conceed the preponderance of evidence is against my hypothesis.
Darth Wong wrote:What does it mean to "adapt" to bullets? Don't tell me you think "adapt" means "become invulnerable to". We can adapt to bullets today; we put on body armour. But that doesn't make us invulnerable.
Adapt as in modify their personal shields to be able to repell them.
Edit: anyway, this is a discussion that's been had before, and I'm not trying to start a debate on it. I'll conceed the preponderance of evidence is against my hypothesis.
Problems with conservation of momentum. Even if it can repel a bullet, the bullet's momentum is still transferred to the shield generator. Even if the generator is a large flat plate on their chest that distributes the force over their body, they'll still break bones, and if its a little internal thing it'll mash organs.
Ryan Thunder wrote:Problems with conservation of momentum. Even if it can repel a bullet, the bullet's momentum is still transferred to the shield generator. Even if the generator is a large flat plate on their chest that distributes the force over their body, they'll still break bones, and if its a little internal thing it'll mash organs.
Not good, either way.
To be fair, doing that would put it on the same level as kevlar. The issue is we've never seen the Borg do anything like this, or else that Species 867-5309 dude in Scorpion wouldn't have been able to slaughter hordes of them with its claws.
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"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
CaptJodan wrote:My most recent (ie, the one most at the top of my head) vote would be for the Asgard core and the Merlin cloaking device from SG-1.
According to Thor, the Asgard core contains "everything" the Asgard knows, likely including detailed information on how to build whatever technology the Asgard had, but the writers have not explored the core much at all.
Here's the rub.
The Asgard were a mighty civilization, a hundred thousand years old, with an entire galaxy's resources seemingly at their disposal.
Even with the same technology, a secret programme run by the United States military isn't going to produce anything nearly as impressive.
Most often, were they to request the Asgard's shiny stuff, like super FTL drives, they'd just get a little hologram of Thor saying, "That is not possible with your current resources. Would you like me to explain the infrastructure projects you must undertake first?"
At the very least, quasi limited replication should be possible, as we saw in the last episode of SG-1, for all 304s equipped with the core. Time dilation was purpose built into the core, and also capable of being used, which could be of tactical use when there's a need to buy more time for something.
Which is something of very limited use. It would have been a good (or at least, plausible) way to take on the Asurans' ships, I suppose. But for the most part, that's just an over-complex tactic when the Asgard also gave it guns that are the shit
We learned that Carter was going to try to build her own Merlin cloak with the help of said Asgard core's replication technology. Her chances of success remain unclear, as Carter didn't get the chance to really dig deep into building it before deciding they wouldn't phase the ship in time before being hit, but she seemed hopeful that she might be able to do it. Regardless, we know there is one device still in existence, but despite Carter's personal experience with cloaking Earth in a protective field to keep enemies from harming it, we did not see it used either when the Ori showed up to Earth nor later when there was a real threat about to fire on the planet. The device has not been referenced in any way since the last episode of SG-1.
So they broke it? What's so odd about that. They are the bone-bashing apes in 2001, compared to the Ancients, let alone the Ancients' super-genius, mystically-charged former-chancellor.
Honestly, the encyclopedia isn't a problem. They also have access to the database of Atlantis, but I don't see them building one in a reasonable time.
Short of going public, and overhauling the entire education system to Asgard standards (if that's even possible for humans) and trying to introduce asgard technology to the entire planet (not a bad idea, mind, but one the writers will never embrace, with the pretense that this is RL Earth) I don't see why they should really be making much use of this stuff.
They need to know what to ask those asgard encyclopedias for. Hell, they need to know the first
For an example, remember Carter always talking about quantumn physics? Quantumn Theory is just plain wrong in universe. Uncertainty is outright dismissed by the Tollan as a fallacious theory. And she's known such since season one. This is fairly fundamental stuff for the operation of the technologies they're dealing with (stargates, transporters) but she's still not looked up what the Asgard's theories on those are, or if she's tried, she's been unable to understand them.
Beyond asking it for 'a personal cloak' or 'one of those neat little hand-held diallers that Thor had' there's really not that much use they can make of the things. Spoiler
Also, I don't recall what bit about cloaking a ship you're talking about. Could you elaborate?
Of course, the Asgard core is under-used. Early season Earth would've been chomping at the bit to get that stuff. Now that they have it, and few enemies who are a serious threat, is there the slightest disclosure to the public? Hell no.
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), we simply don't know enough about the technology to assume it should be more widely used or be worth hunting down. Which, if memory serves, is what I said the LAST time the blasted thing came up.
