Reboot

[Kartr_Kana]

Even if he came 4 years after that still puts him as Vader before the twins are born. That's a problem unless it's explained somewhere else in the books.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm wondering why the PT is being treated with so dismissively here. If we are trying to get as close to the original vision of Star Wars before the EU went insane, shouldn't G canon be overriding? Some tweaks to TTT seem to be a better bet. There are years between Episode III and TTT that can be used to justify the hatred of cloning; a good one might be the mass demobilizing of militant, heavily conditioned clones after the war suffering from all sorts of horrible Post-Tramatic Stress that goes untreated because "they're just clones", which results in huge riots and even minor civil wars as whole regiments of growth-accerated clones steadily go insane through the streets and cities of the Empire. That would create some health public fear right there, and when Stormtroopers come to crush the Clone Revolts, we have the warS part of the Clone Wars.

[Kartr_Kana]

I'm wondering why the PT is being treated with so dismissively here. If we are trying to get as close to the original vision of Star Wars before the EU went insane

Who said anything about before the EU went insane? This is about getting it as close to the OT as possible and more importantly getting rid of stupidity. Stupidity like Anakin who's supposed to be a good pilot when Obi-wan met him being a race car driver in the PT. Or the fact that he and Owen Lars never disagreed about Anakin going away to be a jedi. Or that General Kenobi actually didn't serve under Bail Organa.

shouldn't G canon be overriding?

We're "rewriting" what's canon and what isn't and like I said in the OP the only things we're not touching are the original movies. So everything including the PT are fair game. If it doesn't fit with the OT then it gets changed or cut.

when Stormtroopers come to crush the Clone Revolts

The Stormtroopers are the clones. The Clones are the stormtroopers so that makes no sense at all. And why would growth acceleration cause people to go insane?

[Darth Yoshi]

Even if he came 4 years after that still puts him as Vader before the twins are born. That's a problem unless it's explained somewhere else in the books.

That's only assuming that Vader must have turned after the twins' birth. In all honesty, Vader might have masqueraded as a Jedi for years before Obi-wan caught on at the start of the Purge and confronted him. Prior to the PT, there was exactly nil about the Clone Wars and the Purge—indeed, that was precisely the point.

[Kartr_Kana]

That's true I just thought it'd be the same armor clad Vader for some reason. Although I guess he could have used an armored suit before he got burned. Then all he'd have to do was add the life support equipment later.

It would introduce a whole new dynamic if the twins were conceived after Vaders fall, but before the suit.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ok so the Clone Wars comics isn't one of the three movies of the PT, but it fills in the time between ep2 and 3.

Of course, but though it is part of the same era, it should be distinguished as sepperate from the other Prequel films. In any case, the Clones are not the primary focus even of the Clone Wars films.

So they aren't critical to Palpantines victory? They aren't his foil for the Seps, they aren't the tool he uses to wipe out the Jedi? They're just a force multiplier, a multiplier of what force? The Republic in the PT has no military until they get the clones. The Empire under Zahn has a military already, and the clones are not vital to the survival of the Empire.

All true. Except that I would question the "Republic has no military" bit. The Republic had no federal army, but it did have local defense and security forces, as well as the Jedi. Also, the existence of the Katana fleet would suggest that it had a fair-sized federal Navy, army or no.

Lets see how well does the PT mesh with the OT. Well in ANH Obi-wan says Owen didn't agree with Anakin and thought he should have stayed on the farm instead of going off on some damn fool crusade. In the AotC Anakin and Owen don't argue about it, in fact Owen doesn't seem to give two shits about what Anakin does.

Just because Owen didn't confront Anakin about it doesn't mean he didn't think it, or say as much to Obi-wan. Though some explicite refference to this at least should probably have been in Episode 2.

Anakin didn't grow up on the farm so how can he stay?

Well he could have ditched the Order and stayed, but that's asking for a bit much.

In ANH Obi-wan says Anakin was a great pilot when he first met him, in TPM he's not a pilot he's a race car driver.

Of a flying car.

The ANH novel says that the OR was unassailable from without, yet in the PT we see a Republic with no army, no navy and no way of defending it's self, before the miraculous arrival of the clones.

The Republic wasn't attacked from the outside. Its threat was from an internal sepperatist movement. And frankly the ANH novel would be one of the things I'd probably ditch. It doesn't fit well with the OT films at all.

Once again I'll say that droids vs clones a clone war does not make. General Kenobi never serves under Bail Organa.

Perhaps Obi-wan just simplified the history lesson for Luke. Organa was in the Senate, and as a Jedi did not Kenobi serve the Senate? And of course, Obi was never 100% honest with Luke.

Now how well does Zahn's TTT mesh with the OT. We'll just look at it's (very few)references to the Clone Wars since we're comparing it to the PT.

Certainly TTT refers to the Clone Wars infrequently. That's not to say what depictions it does have mesh perfectly with the OT.

Pealleon at one point reminisces that the first clones the Navy(Republic presumably) met/fought were very unstable. Here we see that according to TTT the Republic does have a military to defend it's self with and that incident takes place at the beginning of the clone wars which if IIRC according to Paelleons time in the service puts the start at around the same time TPM takes place. I haven't read TTT in a long time so I couldn't remember any more right now. I think for me the biggest thing is how many ways the PT doesn't mesh with the OT.

If anything TTT puts the Clone Wars too far back. Also, I will reiterate my point about the Republic having a military in the PT. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree.

By fixation I meant that the PT focuses a lot more on the actual clones. This opinion comes more from reading the PT era books then the movies though. Since we're talking about keeping or nixing the movies I'll drop the claim that the PT is more clone centric then TTT.

If anything I should concede this point about which is more clone-centric. The PT is not primarily about the Clones, but they do play a major role. I suspect that my arguments were not entirely well thought through or perhaps even entirely honest, and I also suspect that I had an ulterior motive (though one I have not kept hidden) in that I feel that Lucas's intentions deserve a certain measure of respect, given that he is the creator of Star Wars. Also, for all its flaws, the PT certainly has its moments.

However, I think I should state that my issue with TTT being Clone-centric probably has more to do with the cloning of characters and those clones retaining the originals memories than it does with the use of Clone soldiers.

I'll concede as well that TTT may mesh better with the OT, though I won't make a definitive statement one way or the other yet. Regardless, however, I feel that we should give the PT more consideration, and try to find a way to make it and TTT compatible (not too hard if you're rewriting continuity).

[Kartr_Kana]

All true. Except that I would question the "Republic has no military" bit. The Republic had no federal army, but it did have local defense and security forces, as well as the Jedi. Also, the existence of the Katana fleet would suggest that it had a fair-sized federal Navy, army or no.

As far as I can remember all the Republic had was the "Judiciary" who used starfighters and un-armed "Republic Cruisers". There was one novel (I think it was Cloak of Deception) where the only ships that the Republic could send after a pirate/proto-separatist base were three Republic Cruisers and they were un-armed.

Also the very fact that TTT says the Katana fleet and non-Katana Dreadnaughts were used by the Republic and yet it is not shown in any PT era material is one of my points as to why the PT and the TTT do not mesh. Every piece of work from the PT points to the fact that the Republic had no military, aside from planetary defense fleets, owned and operated by those same planets.

Of a flying car.

A hovering car, if it had been a flying car then the whole jump scene wouldn't have been a big deal. At no point does any podracer show the ability to preform aerobatic maneuvers or do anything else associated with flying. All it really is, is a landspeeder attached to a pair of jet engines.

The Republic wasn't attacked from the outside. Its threat was from an internal sepperatist movement. And frankly the ANH novel would be one of the things I'd probably ditch. It doesn't fit well with the OT films at all.

Agreed the Seps were an internal threat, but that wasn't my point. The Republic has nothing with which to defend itself. Unless they plan to seize all the military assets of it's member states the Republic is helpless against an outside enemy.

I've only read the ANH novelization once and that was probably 10 years ago so I can't make a judgment either way.

Perhaps Obi-wan just simplified the history lesson for Luke. Organa was in the Senate, and as a Jedi did not Kenobi serve the Senate? And of course, Obi was never 100% honest with Luke

First off Obi-wan isn't the one saying he served under Bail, it's Leia. Secondly while the Jedi serve at the behest of the Senate they're not actually under the Senate. Also the term "served" usually connotes a much closer tie then something as abstract and distant as the Senate.

Certainly TTT refers to the Clone Wars infrequently. That's not to say what depictions it does have mesh perfectly with the OT.

Examples? Other then the time line.

If anything TTT puts the Clone Wars too far back. Also, I will reiterate my point about the Republic having a military in the PT. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree.

It's quite possible that TTT does put it to far back. As I don't have any of my books with me I can't run the numbers right now. However Pealleon might just be rounding the years rather then stating an exact date. As for the Republic having a military at the time I'd like to see some evidence that would disprove what I've put forth.

I certainly agree that the PT "has it's moments", I've said it before I don't actually dislike them as movies. I just don't think they're the right movies for that era.

However, I think I should state that my issue with TTT being Clone-centric probably has more to do with the cloning of characters and those clones retaining the originals memories than it does with the use of Clone soldiers.

We don't really see this till the Hand of Thrawn duology. Even then it's because they scan the brains of the subject and replicate the results in the clones. Without that the clones wouldn't have the memories.

I respect what Lucas did in creating Star Wars, but I lost all respect for him once he started letting drivel like LotF, the Killiks, KT and other shitty stories to be written and published.

I think making the PT and TTT compatible is going to be far harder then you think. However you do it is going to result in significant changes to one or the other, possible even both.

[Formless]

I just wanted to throw this out, but TTT and PT do NOT have to be completely irreconcilable, at least in regards to the Clone hate in the galaxy. Remember that the war had two sides, one of which was a clear loser in the struggle. Those people who were supporting the Separatists are still part of Galactic civilization and society, and to them the clones are NOT heroes. After all, after they were defeated, the Empire soon after clamped down and oppressed parts of the galaxy that had been Separatist sympathizers. These people would in turn be likely supporters of the rebellion, which brings still more oppression to them. That makes up for a pretty substantial part of the galaxy!

Then in the rest of civilization you have billions to trillions of veterans from the war who may or may not have stayed a part of the new Imperial forces who all look identical (or nearly), who know of nothing but war since conception, and who otherwise seem human enough in every respect but who can legitametly claim to be no more then a few years old, if not born literally yesterday. Holy fuck that's going to be creepy, and they are not going to be pleasant customers to have around. Oh, and you are hearing rumors, albeit unsubstantiated, that these guys can go crazy (never mind that a certain brand actually does have that tendency, as per TTT). Now tell me that all that propaganda about them being the "Heroes of the Republic" is going to magically make you like these people? Oh, and the Rebel propaganda that you have been reading in secret says that you no longer have a legitimate government, and that there is no Republic for them to be heroes of because they helped topple it. Seriously, given thirty to forty years for all the hype of "victory for the Republic!" to go away and the new Empire to lose its gilded sheen and all the above shit, a general fear or dislike of clones is not so hard swallow. And that is just considering factors that could be at play in the actual canon, in a re-write you can really go nuts.

[Kartr_Kana]

Remember that the war had two sides, one of which was a clear loser in the struggle. Those people who were supporting the Separatists are still part of Galactic civilization and society, and to them the clones are NOT heroes.

So where's the droid hate? Don't forget that the main players on the Sep side were Mega-corps that from all accounts seem very oppressive and were disliked by most of the galactic working class. The Hailfire missile droids for example were used to go after people who couldn't pay off their debts to the Banking Guild (AotC Visual Dictionary).

Then in the rest of civilization you have billions to trillions of veterans from the war who may or may not have stayed a part of the new Imperial forces who all look identical (or nearly), who know of nothing but war since conception, and who otherwise seem human enough in every respect but who can legitimately claim to be no more then a few years old, if not born literally yesterday.

Since when did the clones get the option to retire? Every source I've heard or read (admittedly I haven't been reading a whole lot of Star Wars recently) the Clones become the Stormtroopers and they don't retire. In fact they just seem to vanish, one day they're there the next they're gone.

Oh, and you are hearing rumors, albeit unsubstantiated, that these guys can go crazy

Where does it say anywhere that there are rumors of crazy clones? Oh that's right no where, you're just making shit up now.

And that is just considering factors that could be at play in the actual canon

Actually none of your arguments are supported by the original canon. Except for that bit about there being two sides to the war, and that still doesn't explain why the galaxy isn't terrified of droids.

[Havok]

As to the crazy clones, I believe he is referring to a cloning method talked about in TTT (The Thrawn Trilogy) were Clones that were grown too fast went wacky due to a disconnection from the Force suffered because of the sped up process. So he is not exactly making it up, but I'm not sure it is relevant.

[Kartr_Kana]

Oh, and you are hearing rumors, albeit unsubstantiated, that these guys can go crazy (never mind that a certain brand actually does have that tendency, as per TTT).

Actually he's saying that not including TTT they are known to go insane. Which is bullshit, never mind the fact that the type of clones TTT talks about don't exist in the PT. And the same TTT crazy clones are the biggest reason the PT and TTT aren't compatible.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm wondering why the PT is being treated with so dismissively here. If we are trying to get as close to the original vision of Star Wars before the EU went insane

Who said anything about before the EU went insane? This is about getting it as close to the OT as possible and more importantly getting rid of stupidity. Stupidity like Anakin who's supposed to be a good pilot when Obi-wan met him being a race car driver in the PT. Or the fact that he and Owen Lars never disagreed about Anakin going away to be a jedi. Or that General Kenobi actually didn't serve under Bail Organa.

To be fair to the Anakin pilot thing, Anakin was good because he had a strong subconcious connection to the force; he may have been skilled, but it was the force doing a lot of heavy lifting.

shouldn't G canon be overriding?

We're "rewriting" what's canon and what isn't and like I said in the OP the only things we're not touching are the original movies. So everything including the PT are fair game. If it doesn't fit with the OT then it gets changed or cut.

Fair enough. The Thrawn Trilogy is not the original trilogy, that's all I'm saying.

when Stormtroopers come to crush the Clone Revolts

The Stormtroopers are the clones. The Clones are the stormtroopers so that makes no sense at all. And why would growth acceleration cause people to go insane?

Because the growth accelerated clones are going to have to be demobilized, all of em, in about the same 3 year window when they were getting older. They might be the Stormtroopers, but they were the Grand Army of the Republic too; they are likely proud of their service to the Republic before the Empire came along. And we know that lots of growth acceleration causes "clone madness", so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that merely double growth time may just postpone it to later. The new Stormtroopers coming to put the clone revolts down would be very different from the ones revolting; they likely wouldn't be based off the same person, they'd have different conditioning, their growth might not have been quite as accelerated to prepare them for a long-lasting Empire.

[Formless]

So where's the droid hate? Don't forget that the main players on the Sep side were Mega-corps that from all accounts seem very oppressive and were disliked by most of the galactic working class. The Hailfire missile droids for example were used to go after people who couldn't pay off their debts to the Banking Guild (AotC Visual Dictionary).

Remember how the Mos Eisley canteena has that "we don't serve your kind" rule about droids? I do believe its been said in official sources (although I cannot remember which ones offhand) that that is a common thing throughout the galaxy as a result of the droid armies. So yes, there is droid hate in the galaxy, you just conveniently forgot about it.

Since when did the clones get the option to retire? Every source I've heard or read (admittedly I haven't been reading a whole lot of Star Wars recently) the Clones become the Stormtroopers and they don't retire. In fact they just seem to vanish, one day they're there the next they're gone.

I do not remember offhand if they could or not, to be honest. The clones do become the first wave of stormtroopers, but eventually they have to start replenishing their troops with conscripts. I assume that there is a reason for that beyond troops dying by rebel fire, but I don't know for sure.

Where does it say anywhere that there are rumors of crazy clones? Oh that's right no where, you're just making shit up now.

If you cannot read the in-universe POV there, you are a fucking retard. In TTT, that clones go crazy doesn't seem to be uncommon knowledge. Guess how knowledge spreads through societies? Yes, this is partially speculation, but it logically flows from the situation seen in TTT.

Actually none of your arguments are supported by the original canon. Except for that bit about there being two sides to the war, and that still doesn't explain why the galaxy isn't terrified of droids.

So you don't consider TTT canon? Big shock there.

Actually he's saying that not including TTT they are known to go insane. Which is bullshit, never mind the fact that the type of clones TTT talks about don't exist in the PT. And the same TTT crazy clones are the biggest reason the PT and TTT aren't compatible.

So you are going to assume that the Kamino cloners were the only sellers of clone troops in the galaxy? You really ARE throwing out canon to suit your beliefs!

Did you know that the New Essential Guide to weapons and Technology has an entry for Sparrti technology, and shows it growing PT CLONE TROOPS? You do know that we only see the Republic getting troops from Kamino once in the movies? And that they are going to need replacements as the war drags on for ten years? AND WE DO NOT SEE THEM NOT BUYING FROM THE SPARRTI? Pull your head out of the dirt, there is nothing to indicate that the Republic in the PT was not or could not be buying troops from multiple vendors such as the Sparrti, and from TTT we have evidence that they did.

Oh, and BTW, when I said ONE BRAND, I really did mean the Sparrti brand exclusively, I never implied that the others go crazy. Again, your reading comprehension sucks piss because you can't seem to read POV.

[Kartr_Kana]

And we know that lots of growth acceleration causes "clone madness", so it's not much of a stretch to imagine that merely double growth time may just postpone it to later.

According to TTT minimum a year growth for a semi-stable clone. The the Kamino clones got 10 and unlike the crazy spartii clones who were decanted fully grown the Kamino clones had at least 9 years decanted to get used to who they are and for the Kaminoans to weed out any with psychological problems. I don't think these guys are going to go bonkers. Even if they did the time frame is so far off from what TTT says that it still doesn't mesh.

Remember how the Mos Eisley canteena has that "we don't serve your kind" rule about droids? I do believe its been said in official sources (although I cannot remember which ones offhand) that that is a common thing throughout the galaxy as a result of the droid armies. So yes, there is droid hate in the galaxy, you just conveniently forgot about it.

Yes they don't serve his kind there and yes droids are considered second class citizens at best. They're like the African Americans, before the civil war. Droids are slaves, looked down upon by organics. That "we don't serve their kind here" is the same segregation that we saw before the '60s. And no where in canon (that I've heard about) does it say that droids are hated because of the war. Or that the slave status is because of the war. Droids were slaves long before the war and long after.

If you cannot read the in-universe POV there, you are a fucking retard. In TTT, that clones go crazy doesn't seem to be uncommon knowledge. Guess how knowledge spreads through societies? Yes, this is partially speculation, but it logically flows from the situation seen in TTT

And this is exactly why TTT and the PT don't mesh. However nothing in the PT points towards crazy clones or clone hatred. Nothing even hints at it!

So you don't consider TTT canon? Big shock there.

Lol if you'd read the OP you'd know that for this exercise the only thing that is "canon" is the OT. That aside I'm arguing that the PT and TTT don't mesh. You saying that they do and then pointing to TTT as evidence is absurd. What you're saying is that we know the PT and TTT mesh, because we know that the clones go insane. When I ask for evidence for the clones going insane you point to TTT and say "it says so right there". No shit sherlock that's why they don't mesh!

So you are going to assume that the Kamino cloners were the only sellers of clone troops in the galaxy?

Yes they are the only seller of clone troops to the Republic, who if you hadn't noticed are the only users of clone troopers in the Galaxy. I think in "True Colors" it has a bit about Palpantine cutting the Kaminoans out of their exclusive deal and turning to the Arkanians in the final months of the war. No mention of Spartii though.

You really ARE throwing out canon to suit your beliefs!

No you're the dishonest shit who's making up canon to suit your fallacious claims.

Did you know that the New Essential Guide to weapons and Technology has an entry for Sparrti technology, and shows it growing PT CLONE TROOPS?

No I didn't. I guess I'm going to have to find a copy and look.

You do know that we only see the Republic getting troops from Kamino once in the movies?

Yes and they keep getting more from Kamino through out the war as per the novels, comic books, video games and other sources.

And that they are going to need replacements as the war drags on for ten years?

Once again you prove that you're either a lying piece of shit, or an ignorant piece of shit. Hell you might be both, wouldn't surprise me! The war lasted approximately three years, dumb ass.

AND WE DO NOT SEE THEM NOT BUYING FROM THE SPARRTI?

No except for the fact that there's an exclusivity clause mentioned in at least one PT era novel.

Pull your head out of the dirt, there is nothing to indicate that the Republic in the PT was not or could not be buying troops from multiple vendors such as the Sparrti, and from TTT we have evidence that they did.

Pull your head out of your ass! There's the previously mentioned exclusivity clause and did you know that TTT never says the Republic bought clones from the Spartii! All it ever says is that the first ones faced by the Navy (something that the PT Republic doesn't have) were highly unstable and that it takes a year minimum to grow stable clones via the Spartii method. Also the fact that TTT says it happens in a way that directly contradicts everything in the PT and the PT era materials is one reason why TTT and the PT don't/can't mesh.

Oh, and BTW, when I said ONE BRAND, I really did mean the Sparrti brand exclusively, I never implied that the others go crazy. Again, your reading comprehension sucks piss because you can't seem to read POV.

The Spartii brand which isn't used or even mentioned in the PT era. And no my reading comprehension is just fine, it's you're ability to look at the facts and come to an objective conclusion that is at fault. If the Kaminoans are the only supplier (which they are) and the Spartii don't even seem to exist then the only clones around to go crazy would be the Kaminoan ones. That simple enough for you? I might be able to draw pictograms later.

You know even if you could prove that Spartii clones existed and went crazy after the war, that's only one of the reasons the PT and TTT don't mesh. You've still got the fact that the OR in TTT has a navy around the same time as TPM. The time lines don't match up at all. Anakin never left the farm (he never lived there) and others that I've put forward in this thread.

[Formless]

Yes they don't serve his kind there and yes droids are considered second class citizens at best. They're like the African Americans, before the civil war. Droids are slaves, looked down upon by organics. That "we don't serve their kind here" is the same segregation that we saw before the '60s. And no where in canon (that I've heard about) does it say that droids are hated because of the war. Or that the slave status is because of the war. Droids were slaves long before the war and long after.

Again, I don't remember where it was said, but it was an official source that said that the droid segregation thing was a direct result.

And this is exactly why TTT and the PT don't mesh. However nothing in the PT points towards crazy clones or clone hatred. Nothing even hints at it!

TTT is decades later, dumbass. Times change, just because the clones were well received at the end of the Clone Wars doesn't mean that the popular opinion cannot change in the meantime. We know from TTT that the Sparrti clones were prone to insanity, what may not be clear is where exactly they were used.

Lol if you'd read the OP you'd know that for this exercise the only thing that is "canon" is the OT. That aside I'm arguing that the PT and TTT don't mesh. You saying that they do and then pointing to TTT as evidence is absurd. What you're saying is that we know the PT and TTT mesh, because we know that the clones go insane. When I ask for evidence for the clones going insane you point to TTT and say "it says so right there". No shit sherlock that's why they don't mesh!

In this exercise, but if this were any other debate you would have to agree that TTT is considered G canon, would you not?

Yes they are the only seller of clone troops to the Republic, who if you hadn't noticed are the only users of clone troopers in the Galaxy. I think in "True Colors" it has a bit about Palpantine cutting the Kaminoans out of their exclusive deal and turning to the Arkanians in the final months of the war. No mention of Spartii though.

I was unaware of that as I have generally steered clear of most things EU. I will conceded that the deal suggests exclusivity, but I would also point out that Palpatine is not exactly someone you can trust to keep his promises.

No you're the dishonest shit who's making up canon to suit your fallacious claims.

Nowhere have I made shit up. I brought in speculation, true, but nowhere was that speculation based on inventing canon.

No I didn't. I guess I'm going to have to find a copy and look.

Don't bother-- I double checked. The fucking thing is a Kaminoan machine. Never mind.

Once again you prove that you're either a lying piece of shit, or an ignorant piece of shit. Hell you might be both, wouldn't surprise me! The war lasted approximately three years, dumb ass.

I'm not perfect, I forgot the exact number. Everyone makes mistakes, but that hardly makes them either dishonest or ignorant.

Pull your head out of your ass! There's the previously mentioned exclusivity clause and did you know that TTT never says the Republic bought clones from the Spartii! All it ever says is that the first ones faced by the Navy (something that the PT Republic doesn't have) were highly unstable and that it takes a year minimum to grow stable clones via the Spartii method. Also the fact that TTT says it happens in a way that directly contradicts everything in the PT and the PT era materials is one reason why TTT and the PT don't/can't mesh.

Or that we lack information about where the Sparti technology was originally applied.

You know even if you could prove that Spartii clones existed and went crazy after the war, that's only one of the reasons the PT and TTT don't mesh. You've still got the fact that the OR in TTT has a navy around the same time as TPM. The time lines don't match up at all. Anakin never left the farm (he never lived there) and others that I've put forward in this thread.

I never said that they did, only that this particular part of the whole mess was not totally irreconcilable. Some points still remain, such as the fact that half of the galaxy was on the side the clone armies defeated, the decades of Imperial rule to sour their reputation, the rebellion and the possibility of propaganda, etc. This is not dependent upon the existence or use of sparti technology in the PT, it is just common sense.

[Kartr_Kana]

Again, I don't remember where it was said, but it was an official source that said that the droid segregation thing was a direct result.

Droid segregation has been around since KotOR and is even present in TPM which is before the Clone Wars. In fact in the Visual Dictionary to TPM I believe it says that the Naboo treatment of droids as sentient beings and near equals is unique.

TTT is decades later, dumbass. Times change, just because the clones were well received at the end of the Clone Wars doesn't mean that the popular opinion cannot change in the meantime. We know from TTT that the Sparrti clones were prone to insanity, what may not be clear is where exactly they were used.

Spartii Clones were generally more insane at the beginning of the Wars (roughly at the same time as TPM) then they were later. Also Spartii clones are never mentioned through out the PT era. And yes while public opinion does change over time, the almost virulent hatred of clones in TTT is hard to reconcile with their popularity at the end of RotS.

In this exercise, but if this were any other debate you would have to agree that TTT is considered G canon, would you not?

Of course TTT is lower canon then the movies, that doesn't alter the fact that the two are incompatible.

I was unaware of that as I have generally steered clear of most things EU. I will conceded that the deal suggests exclusivity, but I would also point out that Palpatine is not exactly someone you can trust to keep his promises.

I'm pretty sure it was in True Colors (which bought so I could show all my friends where the Null ARCs make fun of Wayne Poe). The whole bit was pointing out that Palpantine was secretly breaking the deal with the Kaminoans so he could build a new army using Arkanian cloning tech. So yes the Kaminoans had an exclusive right to supply the Republic with clones up until a few months before the end of the war. Yes Palpantine is a sneaky SOB who in the last months of the war went back on that deal and hired the Arkanians.

Or that we lack information about where the Sparti technology was originally applied.

Doesn't really matter where it was applied, since according to the PT there's only two sides to the Clone Wars and only one side uses clones. Yes there are other cloning groups out there per Dexter Jetster in AotC saying that the Kaminoan's are some of the best. Thing is there's not a peep from these other cloners or any clone armies before AotC. This puts any sort of "mini" clone wars out of the time line that TTT demands. As for the Kaminoan clones going crazy after the war, it seems very unlikely given the quality control used in their creation and training. Also there's no stories about post war clones going insane in the EU.

I never said that they did, only that this particular part of the whole mess was not totally irreconcilable. Some points still remain, such as the fact that half of the galaxy was on the side the clone armies defeated, the decades of Imperial rule to sour their reputation, the rebellion and the possibility of propaganda, etc. This is not dependent upon the existence or use of sparti technology in the PT, it is just common sense.

Did you ever think that the people under sep control might see the Clones as liberators? Most people seem to dislike them and I'm pretty sure the Intergalactic Banking Guilds weren't the only ones who used their droids against the people under them. Plus the fear and hatred of clones isn't from people who were under the Seps at the time, but rather from people who's planets sided with the Republic. And their fear is not that of someone who hates clones because they put Palpantine in power, but rather that of people who fear mad clones rampaging across the Galaxy once again. Pealleon fears them and he's an Imperial Officer, he should be one of those who respects and admires the clones for what they did.

[Havok]

On the "We don't serve your kind here" comment from ANH about C-3PO and R2-D2. I think that has more to do with the fact that the Stormtroopers in Mos Eisley, and the Imperial Garrison, were stopping anyone with droids at the time and everyone was doing whatever they could to avoid being under the attention of the Imperials on Tattooine.

Otherwise, droids are considered wallpaper. Look at how the Stormtroopers on the Death Star reacted towards 3PO.

[Kartr_Kana]

Read Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina, you'll find out that it's 'cause Whuhr hates droids. At least until he finds one that can turn Greedo into the finest tasting and most potent liquor he's ever had

[Havok]

Except we are re-writing canon to fit with the OT, are we not? And ew... Greedo whiskey? I don't remember that story.

[Kartr_Kana]

Yes we are "re-writing" canon to fit the OT still from the way Whrur said "Hey we don't serve there kind here!" sounded more like a person who doesn't like/looks down on droids rather then someone who doesn't want droids in the bar cause they might cause Imperial Entanglements. Sides droids don't drink booze so what's the point of letting them in anyways?

And yes Greedo whiskey It's actually a kind of funny story

[Formless]

Did you ever think that the people under sep control might see the Clones as liberators? Most people seem to dislike them and I'm pretty sure the Intergalactic Banking Guilds weren't the only ones who used their droids against the people under them. Plus the fear and hatred of clones isn't from people who were under the Seps at the time, but rather from people who's planets sided with the Republic. And their fear is not that of someone who hates clones because they put Palpantine in power, but rather that of people who fear mad clones rampaging across the Galaxy once again. Pealleon fears them and he's an Imperial Officer, he should be one of those who respects and admires the clones for what they did.

That had not occurred to me, no. Perhaps they are simply the biggest symbol of the civil war from the era? I don't know at this point, but I am sure you know where I would make my first changes if I had the chance (as per the OP)!

[Formless]

And ew... Greedo whiskey? I don't remember that story.

There was this droid that had the most haphazard assortment of functions you could possibly imagine, and one of them was reprocessing waste into food. So the bartender has this corpse problem, a droid he doesn't know what to do with, puts two and two together and...

[Kartr_Kana]

but I am sure you know where I would make my first changes if I had the chance

Not sure that I do, but feel free to expound upon it. That's what the thread is for

[Illuminatus Primus]

I ended up ditching the PT and PT EU myself. I wanted to rehabilitate TTT and its just too hard to square with a PT that's not very good anyway. And I always hated the Clone Wars we got.

[Formless]

Not sure that I do, but feel free to expound upon it. That's what the thread is for

Oh, I actually have to say it? Alright then.

I grab the PT by the throat and strangle out every last mention of Kamino, droid armies, and while I'm at it fuck'n Naboo (just so we never have to suffer through the worst stupidities of TPM). I keep the basic plot of the PT, but by damn, the Clone Wars are going to actually feature clones fighting fuck'n clones!

(then maybe I put a mention here or there in TTT about historical accuracy or lack thereof of certain stories from the Clone Wars. Zahn really is a better writer then Lucas!)