Palpatine as an absolute authority

[Darth Fanboy]

Palpatine’s word was not law; your continued claim to this effect is ridiculous in face of the canon evidence to the contrary. He was hardly omnipotent.

Emphasis mine.

having virtually unlimited authority or influence

"The difference now is that when I have taken into account your contributions and those of my advisers, my judgment will be final. There will be no debates, no citations of constitutional precent, no power of veto, no court proceedings or deferrals. My decrees will be issued simultaneously to our constituent worlds, and they will take effect immediately.

Palpatine is not omnipotent in his Empire? I suppose one might make the argument that he wasn't at first, but certainly by the time of Episode IV when he disbands the Senate and gives control to his governors he qualifies right?

Is there anyone who can provide evidence that supports Darth Hoth's claim that Palpatine was not omnipotent? If Palpatine didn't rule the Empire who did?

[Connor MacLeod]

Well what do you mean by "absolute authority?" That could mean "he could directly order whatever the fuck he wanted done and it would be done regardless of what others think" or it could mean "he could do whatever he wanted, but it wasn't easy because he couldn't get caught at it and discovered, so he had to be rather circumspect about it, often relying on manipulation and subterfuge to get his ends.)

One is very direct and rapid, the other is indirect and less so.

[Darth Fanboy]

Well what do you mean by "absolute authority?"

That Palpatine's word was law, that he had no oversight and that there were no checks on his power as Emperor.

Sure there were times when Palpatine had to resort to manipulations in order to avoid taking a hit to his public opinion, but i'm more referring to the power of his office.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well what do you mean by "absolute authority?"

That Palpatine's word was law, that he had no oversight and that there were no checks on his power as Emperor.

So why did he need the Death Stars? Why couldn't he just dominate through sheer military power? Why need pretenses (IE REbellion) to maintain power?

Sure there were times when Palpatine had to resort to manipulations in order to avoid taking a hit to his public opinion, but i'm more referring to the power of his office.

Power can still be direct and overt or indirect and subtle.

[Darth Fanboy]

So why did he need the Death Stars? Why couldn't he just dominate through sheer military power? Why need pretenses (IE REbellion) to maintain power?

To control those who didn't recognize or rejected his authority.

Power can still be direct and overt or indirect and subtle.

Yes, but as Emperor of the Galactic Empire, he was the top authority with no oversight or check against said authority correct?

[Samuel]

Palpatine wanted the Death Stars because they tremendously simplify things. Do you know how hard it is to keep track of over 25000 control codes?

Besides, the Imperial Military had an indpendent streak in it- he had to station Stormtroopers on board and play off their rivalry to control them. Anything to further their subservience would help.

[Galvatron]

Yes, but as Emperor of the Galactic Empire, he was the top authority with no oversight or check against said authority correct?

I thought it was pretty clear in ANH that the senate was a check against his authority.

• Leia thought so, else she wouldn't have bothered protesting her capture.
• Daine Jir thought so, else he wouldn't have confirmed Leia's words by admitting that holding her was dangerous.
• Vader thought so, else he wouldn't have bothered concocting the cover story.
• Tagge thought so, else he wouldn't have been worried about the rebellion gaining support in the senate.
• Tarkin thought so, else he wouldn't have all but admitted that the senate had been a cause for concern before the emperor disbanded it.

If anything, I believe that Palpatine's political authority diminished in the latter years of the Empire. It wasn't until he had the "FU power" of the Death Star that he finally dared to wrest absolute control.

[Publius]

It is important to remember that there is a difference between hard power and soft power, between nominal authority and practical authority, and between a strong dictator and a weak dictator.

Legally, Emperor Palpatine was supreme. The Ultimate Visual Guide states in no uncertain terms that he was "without any legal, political, or financial restraints." There is no question that he had the authority to do anything he liked. The question, however, is how much of his legal authority did he have practical use of? In theory, Queen Elizabeth II is also sovereign, and can dissolve Parliament and dismiss her Government at will; in practice, her authority is heavily constrained by constitutional convention, tradition, and simple political practicality. Simply having the legal right to do something is not the same as having the actual ability to do it.

In the first place, one must remember that Palpatine deliberately made himself remote. Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker notes that the galaxy-at-large perceived him as being "shut away from the populace" and "controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office." The Essential Guide to Characters writes that he "set up a system whereby the Empire couldn't function without him," and "once that system was in place, he became more distant and reclusive, seen only by those who needed to see him," leaving to "his leaders and commanders" to "present the public face for him." The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that "his Vizier and ministers maintained the day-to-day operation of the Empire" while he pursued his dark side studies; The New Essential Guide to Characters states that "by the time of the Battle of Hoth, Pestage was, in fact, running the Empire," and that Palpatine had "surrendered the day-to-day responsibilities of rule to his Grand Vizier" (the Death Star Technical Companion establishes that this was nothing new, as by the time of the Battle of Yavin Palpatine had already "assigned all public addresses and the day-to-day running of the Empire" to Ars Dangor, saying that "the Emperor deals with the big picture; he leaves the little pieces for Dangor to take care of").

That is to say, Palpatine had legally unlimited authority, but was rarely around to exert it, and realistically would not be inclined to do so anyway. In the Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook, he is careful to verbally appoint Jerjerrod to head the second Death Star Project; in the Death Star Technial Companion, it is Ars Dangor who approves the first Death Star Project and the Tarkin Doctrine, and it is Ars Dangor again in the Imperial Sourcebook who announces the dissolution of the Senate, both publicly and privately to the college of Moffs and governors. That is to say, he scrupulously avoided signing his own name to anything that might damage his dignitas should word of it get out. It was his underlings who put their necks out to carry out his plans, and it was their names on all the paperwork involved. Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker shows that it was the popular perception that "many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions." Biggs Darklighter, himself a rebel, tells Luke that "the Empire might have been great and beautiful once, but the people in charge now — ", putting the blame for Imperial corruption and brutality not on the Emperor but rather on his ministers and governors (the very same ones he forced to "present the public face"). In essence, Palpatine cynically manipulated the tendency to see the head of state as the embodiment of national character and the head of government as a mere politico.

The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook says of Palpatine that "upon his election as President of the Republic, he already had wealth and connections enough to guarantee himself unlimited power." Obviously this does not refer to the legal supremacy he later achieved as Galactic Emperor (a form of hard power), but rather to his influence, both licit and illicit, and to his vast connections in the worlds of finance, business, organized crime, and the occult (forms of soft power). Nevertheless, despite his invisible hegemony, he continued to act for years by a combination of overt policy as Supreme Chancellor and covert manipulation as Darth Sidious. The majority of his activities could not be verifiably attributed to him directly, meaning that it was not his own dignitas that was put at risk should they be exposed. Why should this change simply because he gained further legal power? It served his purposes to be a beloved old man, a venerated statesman, and savior of civilization, even as his proxies perpetrated war crimes and atrocities at his instigation. He had already spent a lifetime manipulating people into wanting to do what he wanted them to do. That was his modus operandi, and not likely to change once he was acclaimed emperor. Indeed, the Imperial Sourcebook calls it his "peculiar genius": "He had succeeded in having his enemies unknowingly choose exactly the course of action he desired them to choose."

The Senate continued to have real authority in the Empire. The Star Wars Encyclopedia states that it "steered the course of government" and "administered to the many member systems." It obviously had a great deal of control over the civil service, as indicated by General Tagge's reflexive concern that the dissolution of the Senate would entail the collapse of the bureaucracy in A New Hope (and likewise obviously had a great deal of control over the colonial administration, hence Governor Tarkin's comment that the regional governors would have "direct control" in the Senate's absence). Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races and Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds both contain several examples of Imperials going to great lengths to conceal their illegal activities from the Senate, including the notorious gerrymandering of sapience to exclude certain species from legal protections against slavery and genocide. The Senate was obviously capable of intervening to discipline Imperials who overstepped themselves, or else the Princess Leia's indignation in A New Hope would be pointless (it also implicitly suggests that the odds are negligible of Palpatine intervening to protect his catspaws and stalking horses).

Palpatine was legally supreme, but there continued to be entrenched obstacles to his power. The Senate represented the most formidable, of course; the million member states represented therein would include many of the Core World economic and political powerhouses whose resistance to encroachment on their traditional spheres of influence would be fierce. The Death Star was a tool to enable Palpatine to bypass these entrenchments; with the Death Star available, Palpatine and his Inner Circle would have greater practical freedom to use the legal power he already possessed (just as he arranged the Separatist crisis and the Clone Wars to justify further enhancements to his authority even after the Binks resolution made him a dictator). The Death Star was essentially a ploy to effect a kind of "Palpatine Restoration," which like the so-called Meiji Restoration would have "restored" the emperor's ability to make practical use of his theoretically unlimited authority. Like the Meiji Emperor, of course, Palpatine's scheme was actually more like a pocket coup designed to bring practice in line with theory. Unlike Meiji, however, Palpatine was careful to keep his own name out of it; it was Tarkin and Dangor who actually went through the pantomime, and had things completely failed he could always deny having had a hand in it, leaving his own dignitas undiminished. As Darth Tyranus once noted, Palpatine was at heart a schemer, and one hastens to add that he was fond of hedging his bets (on reflection, "landscaping" may actually be the more accurate verb).

[Darth Fanboy]

Legally, Emperor Palpatine was supreme. The Ultimate Visual Guide states in no uncertain terms that he was "without any legal, political, or financial restraints." There is no question that he had the authority to do anything he liked.

THIS is exactly what I was trying to get at, especially the underlined. I proably should have phrased my posts better but it was the power of his office that I was trying to properly ascertain. Thank you sir.

[Connor MacLeod]

You're playing at bloody semantics. Its clear Palpatine couldn't just do whatever the fuck he pleased, even if in theory he was allowed to. There were real and definite limits on his power (military and otherwise) that prevented him from simply dominating people save through manipulation and subterfuge, even if you assume it is merely his own prestige and image. Otherwise they the fuck didn't he just do away with the Senate BEFORE he had the Death STar? This is precisely the whole point of "direct" vs "indirect."

[Samuel]

You're playing at bloody semantics. Its clear Palpatine couldn't just do whatever the fuck he pleased, even if in theory he was allowed to. There were real and definite limits on his power (military and otherwise) that prevented him from simply dominating people save through manipulation and subterfuge, even if you assume it is merely his own prestige and image. Otherwise they the fuck didn't he just do away with the Senate BEFORE he had the Death STar? This is precisely the whole point of "direct" vs "indirect."

The same applies to Stalin and Hitler, even though they were absolute dictators.

Additionally, Publicus's point is that he used manipulation because he enjoyed setting everything up and watching the puppets dance.

[Darth Fanboy]

You're playing at bloody semantics. Its clear Palpatine couldn't just do whatever the fuck he pleased, even if in theory he was allowed to. There were real and definite limits on his power (military and otherwise) that prevented him from simply dominating people save through manipulation and subterfuge, even if you assume it is merely his own prestige and image. Otherwise they the fuck didn't he just do away with the Senate BEFORE he had the Death STar? This is precisely the whole point of "direct" vs "indirect."

My questions were about his office, not the practicality of doing whatever he wanted. Pubilus answered them perfectly, I don't see how i'm playing at semantics in asking questions about the power of Palpatine's position itself.

[Connor MacLeod]

You're nitpicking over stupid shit like "omnipotent" for one thing. Or are you backpedaling form the whole "Palpatine is Omnipotent" thing you evidently harped on? If he was "omnipotent" then why isn't he achieving the sort of total domination he wants with massed robotic armies and fleets, even though the capacity exists and he can order it? If he's not limited in any way he should be able to.

[Darth Fanboy]

You're nitpicking over stupid shit like "omnipotent" for one thing. Or are you backpedaling form the whole "Palpatine is Omnipotent" thing you evidently harped on?

The argument was being made that Palpatine did not hold supreme political power in the Empire. In the debate over crimes committed by the Empire, I would think the extent of the Emperor's official political power would be a very relevant thing, and not nitpicking.

If he was "omnipotent" then why isn't he achieving the sort of total domination he wants with massed robotic armies and fleets, even though the capacity exists and he can order it? If he's not limited in any way he should be able to.

Just because he can order it doesn't make it practical to do so. But my questions were specifically focused towards his political power, and as I said earlier Publius answered the question quite directly.

[The Original Nex]

You're nitpicking over stupid shit like "omnipotent" for one thing. Or are you backpedaling form the whole "Palpatine is Omnipotent" thing you evidently harped on?

The argument was being made that Palpatine did not hold supreme political power in the Empire. In the debate over crimes committed by the Empire, I would think the extent of the Emperor's official political power would be a very relevant thing, and not nitpicking.

If he was "omnipotent" then why isn't he achieving the sort of total domination he wants with massed robotic armies and fleets, even though the capacity exists and he can order it? If he's not limited in any way he should be able to.

Just because he can order it doesn't make it practical to do so. But my questions were specifically focused towards his political power, and as I said earlier Publius answered the question quite directly.

He doesn't have supreme political power - if such a thing even exists. He has supreme LEGAL power.

[Ender]

This is stupid. No he was not omnipotent. This does not change the fact that he was an autocrat with unlimited legal power. He may have chosen to or been forced to use other means to enact that power, but that doesn't change the fact that he had it. His machinations saw to it that he was effectively self appointed (again using catspaws to do it out of choice) and was granted unlimited legal power to use as he saw fit. His administration also had no hereditary line of succession. Combine these two and you have the very definition of a dictatorship. That was the point that was for some bizarre reason under contention despite the fact it is obvious on the face of it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Any dictatorship has to have some basis to rule from; they need some form of legitimacy so that in the eyes of the populace, they have the right to rule. The Soviet state after WWII was regarded as the supreme defender of the Russian Empire and it derived its legitmacy as such. For Palpatine, he had supreme legal power, but he had to at least manage the populace that mattered to ensure that he could keep his rule. Whether through control of information, or outright destruction of distractors of the regime and justifying that via means such as demonisation, which the various organs of the state actively employed.

But because he has supreme legal power, no matter how you cut it, it is still a dictatorship. He could kill a man as he stood regardless how the law is written and he could get away with it. Even if he labelled the man in question an enemy of the state, he could bypass the laws of the land and the judiciary. His agents had similar powers, which was why Tarkin could and was allowed no less by Vader, the Emperor's chief emissary and viceroy, to pronounce the death sentence on Alderaan without due process whatsoever.

[Galvatron]

That still sounds like a wankish overestimation of his legal authority.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That still sounds like a wankish overestimation of his legal authority.

Why? Because you say so? You have an irritating habit of merely stating things on your own authority on apparently no basis other than your aesthetic preferences. Sure I do say things shouldn't be in SW because they're stupid, but I point out it is just my preference, and at least I (and others) explain why. Could you contribute something more meaningful?

[Galvatron]

Do I need to repeat myself? I stated earlier why this all sounds lame in my first post in this thread.

[Ender]

Do I need to repeat myself? I stated earlier why this all sounds lame in my first post in this thread.

You could point out how any of those are evidence of a legal check on his power, rather than a political one. That would go a long way towards your posts being relevant.

[Galvatron]

Fine. I take particular issue with the following...

His agents had similar powers, which was why Tarkin could and was allowed no less by Vader, the Emperor's chief emissary and viceroy, to pronounce the death sentence on Alderaan without due process whatsoever.

This is a leap. You'll note that Tarkin only did this AFTER the senate was disbanded. The assumption that the emperor and his cronies had this level of unrestricted power in the twenty intervening years between ROTS and ANH has no basis.

[Bilbo]

Fine. I take particular issue with the following...

His agents had similar powers, which was why Tarkin could and was allowed no less by Vader, the Emperor's chief emissary and viceroy, to pronounce the death sentence on Alderaan without due process whatsoever.

This is a leap. You'll note that Tarkin only did this AFTER the senate was disbanded. To assume that the emperor and his cronies had this level of unrestricted power in the twenty intervening years between ROTS and ANH has no basis.

Show me the part in the movie where Tarkin started rubbing his hands together with glee and anounced "no Senate!! great now I can blow up Alderaan."

You cannot. Just like you cannot prove that he chose to do this only after the Senate was disbanded. In ROTS the Senate is just a puppet of Palpatine. He controls a vast number of the seats and manipulates its members with ease. What makes you think that changed between ROTS and ANH?

The only reason that the Senate was kept around was as the head of a beaurocracy to manage all the stupid little shit.

[Galvatron]

Show me the part in the movie where Tarkin started rubbing his hands together with glee and anounced "no Senate!! great now I can blow up Alderaan."

You cannot. Just like you cannot prove that he chose to do this only after the Senate was disbanded.

That's retarded. I don't have to prove shit. Tarkin made it clear that the dissolution of the senate granted him and the other regional governors direct control over their territories. What the fuck do you think that meant?

In ROTS the Senate is just a puppet of Palpatine. He controls a vast number of the seats and manipulates its members with ease. What makes you think that changed between ROTS and ANH?

Dialogue in ANH. As I stated before.

The only reason that the Senate was kept around was as the head of a beaurocracy to manage all the stupid little shit.

Yeah. Palpatine kept that annoying, rebellion-sympathizing senate around for 20 years and it was just a coincidence that he disbanded them when the Death Star became operational. Right.

[Bilbo]

Show me the part in the movie where Tarkin started rubbing his hands together with glee and anounced "no Senate!! great now I can blow up Alderaan."

You cannot. Just like you cannot prove that he chose to do this only after the Senate was disbanded.

That's retarded. I don't have to prove shit. Tarkin made it clear that the dissolution of the senate granted him and the other regional governors direct control over their territories. What the fuck do you think that meant?

No fuckwad. The regional governors were mentioned as a replacement for the beaurocracy. Anyway this in no fucking way suggests that removing the rubber stamp was what Tarkin was waiting for to try out his new toy.