Palpatine as an absolute authority

[Ender]

Fine. I take particular issue with the following...

His agents had similar powers, which was why Tarkin could and was allowed no less by Vader, the Emperor's chief emissary and viceroy, to pronounce the death sentence on Alderaan without due process whatsoever.

This is a leap. You'll note that Tarkin only did this AFTER the senate was disbanded. The assumption that the emperor and his cronies had this level of unrestricted power in the twenty intervening years between ROTS and ANH has no basis.

Firstly, this again does nothing to differentiate between legal and political power. Secondly, we know that Palpatine's agents and he himself could pronounce death sentences on a whim with no legal aftereffects - we see Vader do it routinely, and this was hardly Tarkin's first massacre. Thirdly, the leap is on your part - that we must disregard all the other sources and assume that, just because the senate was disbanded before Alderaan was destroyed it prevented it from happening before. Correlation does not equal causation - we know Palaptine had been planning to "discipline" Alderaan for some time and that they did it to other factions before this (though in not such an exploive fashion)

[Illuminatus Primus]

In the novelisation, Vader actually questions Tarkin's mandate to destroy Alderaan, and Tarkin pulls rank on Vader and waves his grant of essentially, plenipotentiary authority for pursuing and dissolving the rebellion. The indefinite proroguement of the Senate, the Death Star allowed Palpatine and his underlings to freely exercise those legal muscles they technically already had. Hence Publius' analogy to the Meiji Restoration - like the tenno, the Galactic Emperor had unlimited authority, but the practical ability of him to exercise it was very questionable (at best). The event of ANH were intended to decisively end the debate in favor of a practical exercise of unlimited authority. Essentially the conservative Republican Senatorial class viewed Palpatine's autocracy in law much more like Britons view the sovereignty of the British Crown, and the totalitarians and authoritarians in COMPNOR and the Privy Council believed it was quite real and quite useful.

[Ender]

That's retarded. I don't have to prove shit. Tarkin made it clear that the dissolution of the senate granted him and the other regional governors direct control over their territories. What the fuck do you think that meant?

It means exactly what he said, no more and no less. You have somehow rigged this to mean that there were legal limits to the power of the Emperor and his agents before hand, despite the fact that we have explicit statements (such as those in the OP) saying otherwise. More to the point, your claim here is idiotic because even if you were right about such power being expanded to regional governors, Tarkin was not in his region. So even if your shaky premise is true, his power was already outside that then granted after the dissolution.

[Tiriol]

In the novelisation, Vader actually questions Tarkin's mandate to destroy Alderaan, and Tarkin pulls rank on Vader and waves his grant of essentially, plenipotentiary authority for pursuing and dissolving the rebellion.

Could you provide a quote? I'm interested in this, since the novel Death Star seems to conflict with this, since there Tarkin and Vader are rather one of a mind of the situation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Show me the part in the movie where Tarkin started rubbing his hands together with glee and anounced "no Senate!! great now I can blow up Alderaan."

You cannot. Just like you cannot prove that he chose to do this only after the Senate was disbanded.

That's retarded. I don't have to prove shit. Tarkin made it clear that the dissolution of the senate granted him and the other regional governors direct control over their territories. What the fuck do you think that meant?

Again, I do agree with you. ANH was about Palpatine using the technocrats and authoritarians who'd (to outside eyes) supposedly shut him away and ruled in his stead (except they actually did, according his design) to effectively wield unlimited power directly, which was possible due to the innovation of the Death Star - a strategic weapon capable of rendering all the static defenses in service obsolete. However, in the details, you're wrong. This was about an expansion of power in a practical and political sense, but not legally. And Tarkin's authority to destroy Alderaan does not come from his expanded governor's mandate, because he was not the governor of Alderaan.

[Galvatron]

Am I mistaken in believing that Tarkin's authority was expanded to encompass the entire galaxy as commander of the Death Star?

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation."

Local systems? Local to what? The Death Star? It was mobile. Any system could be local. My impression is that the Death Star could go anywhere Tarkin deemed necessary in order to suppress dissent and rebellion rather just his region or "oversector" or whatever the EU decided his territory was.

[NecronLord]

Am I mistaken in believing that Tarkin's authority was expanded to encompass the entire galaxy as commander of the Death Star?

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation."

Local systems? Local to what? The Death Star? It was mobile. Any system could be local. My impression is that the Death Star could go anywhere Tarkin deemed necessary in order to suppress dissent and rebellion rather just his region or "oversector" or whatever the EU decided his territory was.

I would assume he means, local in relation to the galaxy; the galaxy as a whole doesn't make trouble, but local systems (say, Mon Calamari) are prone to flare up and cause trouble, that would normally be settled by senators and their staff overseeing each sector. In other words, he was saying the Star Wars version of Gordon Brown saying "Fear will keep the local governments in line. Fear of this aircraft carrier!"

[Galvatron]

I understand that, but I'm also addressing Ender's earlier statement that my claim is idiotic because "Tarkin was not in his region." Logically, being commander of the Death Star made the entire galaxy his region. In contrast, the other governors didn't have Death Stars so their authority would naturally be confined to the boundaries of their own territories, but Tarkin's particular situation was unique.

Thus Alderaan WAS in his "region" as defined by his role as Death Star Commander.

[Ender]

I understand that, but I'm also addressing Ender's earlier statement that my claim is idiotic because "Tarkin was not in his region." Logically, being commander of the Death Star made the entire galaxy his region.

What exact logic is that? Ships and commands have specific operating areas, so how exactly do you get to define that of the Death Star's as galaxy wide? Particularly when it is specifically said that local systems will be kept in line by it, indicating it did have a fixed AoO.

In contrast, the other governors didn't have Death Stars so their authority would naturally be confined to the boundaries of their own territories, but Tarkin's particular situation was unique.

Thus Alderaan WAS in his "region" as defined by his role as Death Star Commander.

Your personal fiat does not make it so.


And you STILL have yet to prove that there were any legal restrictions on Palpatine and his agents, which is the original claim of the thread and what you are contesting. This run around with the Death Star is a red herring we are indulging you in. You are still to address the relevant point.

[Tiriol]

I understand that, but I'm also addressing Ender's earlier statement that my claim is idiotic because "Tarkin was not in his region." Logically, being commander of the Death Star made the entire galaxy his region. In contrast, the other governors didn't have Death Stars so their authority would naturally be confined to the boundaries of their own territories, but Tarkin's particular situation was unique.

Thus Alderaan WAS in his "region" as defined by his role as Death Star Commander.

So far as I am aware, no source has ever said that suddenly Oversector Outer would have encompassed ALL of the Empire (Oversector Outer being Tarkin's domain as a Grand Moff) nor that Death Star would have bestowed upon its commander any more authority by just being its commander.

[Galvatron]

I understand that, but I'm also addressing Ender's earlier statement that my claim is idiotic because "Tarkin was not in his region." Logically, being commander of the Death Star made the entire galaxy his region.

What exact logic is that? Ships and commands have specific operating areas, so how exactly do you get to define that of the Death Star's as galaxy wide? Particularly when it is specifically said that local systems will be kept in line by it, indicating it did have a fixed AoO.

The very example you cited yourself: Alderaan. You stated that it didn't fall within Tarkin's jurisdiction since it wasn't located in his region. So which is it? Was the Death Star's AoO limited to Tarkin's jurisdiction or could it traverse the entire galaxy as needed? And what exactly ARE the "local systems" relative to the Death Star?

And you STILL have yet to prove that there were any legal restrictions on Palpatine and his agents, which is the original claim of the thread and what you are contesting.

Would Vader need a cover story about the Tantive IV if he had the legal authority to capture and detain a senator without due process?

So far as I am aware, no source has ever said that suddenly Oversector Outer would have encompassed ALL of the Empire (Oversector Outer being Tarkin's domain as a Grand Moff) nor that Death Star would have bestowed upon its commander any more authority by just being its commander.

I'm aware of that and I'm not surprised one bit given its origin as an EU invention.

[Ender]

The very example you cited yourself: Alderaan. You stated that it didn't fall within Tarkin's jurisdiction since it wasn't located in his region. So which is it?

You do realize that governmental territories and military AoOs are completely separate concepts, right?

Was the Death Star's AoO limited to Tarkin's jurisdiction or could it traverse the entire galaxy as needed?

That it is not restricted to Oversector Outer does not mean it has galaxy wise jurisdiction. Quit making these leaps in logic.

And what exactly ARE the "local systems" relative to the Death Star?

It's AoO is undefined. That was my point - you are making a leap in logic in stating that because we don't know the limits of its territory, it must therefore have none. I say, we don't know what its AoO is, simply that it has one. You say, we don't know what it is, therefore lets ignore that it has one and keep making shit up.

Would Vader need a cover story about the Tantive IV if he had the legal authority to capture and detain a senator without due process?

Yes, if there would be political repercussions he wished to avoid. That Vader makes up a story does not mean that he was legally barred from doing so. In and of itself it only means he made up a story. Quit making leaps in logic and show that the explicit statements that the Emperor enjoyed unlimited legal power are wrong.

[Galvatron]

I say, we don't know what its AoO is, simply that it has one.

It does? How do you know? The speed and range of hyperdrive combined with it being one-of-a-kind would seem the negate that as a certainty.

Quit making leaps in logic and show that the explicit statements that the Emperor enjoyed unlimited legal power are wrong.

I can't. Much as I loathe it, the EU is canon so anything it says has to be accepted at face value.

No fuckwad. The regional governors were mentioned as a replacement for the beaurocracy. Anyway this in no fucking way suggests that removing the rubber stamp was what Tarkin was waiting for to try out his new toy.

You think the senate was a rubber stamp? Did you even watch ANH?

[Ender]

I say, we don't know what its AoO is, simply that it has one.

It does? How do you know? The speed and range of hyperdrive combined with it being one-of-a-kind would seem the negate that as a certainty.

Because we have the canon statement saying it is to regulate the local systems. Local is undefined, but if it were galaxy wide as you claim they would not add the qualifier.

Quit making leaps in logic and show that the explicit statements that the Emperor enjoyed unlimited legal power are wrong.

I can't. Much as I loathe it, the EU is canon so anything it says has to be accepted at face value.

No fuckwad. The regional governors were mentioned as a replacement for the beaurocracy. Anyway this in no fucking way suggests that removing the rubber stamp was what Tarkin was waiting for to try out his new toy.

You think the senate was a rubber stamp? Did you even watch ANH?

So you go from conceding in one line to back to your denial in the next one. Wonderful.

[Galvatron]

I never conceded on that point. The senate may have been Palpatine's compliant bitch in the early years of his regime, but are you seriously suggesting that it remained so up to and until ANH?

[Ender]

I never conceded on that point. The senate may have been Palpatine's compliant bitch in the early years of his regime, but are you seriously suggesting that it remained so up to and until ANH?

So then demonstrate that there were legal barriers to his authority. We can go around and around here til the heat death of the universe, but really all it comes down to is that you need to put up or shut up. You want to claim it has changed and there are now legal barriers in place? Prove it.

[Galvatron]

So then demonstrate that there were legal barriers to his authority. We can go around and around here til the heat death of the universe, but really all it comes down to is that you need to put up or shut up. You want to claim it has changed and there are now legal barriers in place? Prove it.

Let's back up here. I'm saying the senate was no longer a rubber stamp, not that they represented a legal barrier. Bilbo seems to be under the impression that they were cooperative to the very end despite evidence to the contrary.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Am I mistaken in believing that Tarkin's authority was expanded to encompass the entire galaxy as commander of the Death Star?

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation."

Yes. Does being commander of a strategic weapons platform mean that commander has the authorization on their own authority and discretion to take that system anywhere and use it as they see fit? No. SSBN commanders (the sailors may correct me) are field officer who are responsible for those systems but execute the orders set by their superiors in accordance with strategic policy.

Local systems? Local to what? The Death Star? It was mobile. Any system could be local. My impression is that the Death Star could go anywhere Tarkin deemed necessary in order to suppress dissent and rebellion rather just his region or "oversector" or whatever the EU decided his territory was.

That's obviously not what is meant by local to the Death Star. Its meant local from to perspective of every regional governor, as per Tarkin's talking point. And furthermore, now you're backpedaling. First it was by virtue of Tarkin's gubernatorial authority you claimed he destroyed Alderaan, but it is the film which speaks of "regional governors" (implying governors of you know, discrete and multiple and limited regions) and Tarkin as "Governor Tarkin". Furthermore, the film itself implies that Alderaan and Dantooine (and Yavin) lie in greatly different areas given that the latter was "too remote to make an effective demonstration" but the former was. Which further undermines the credibility of your claim the film could be taken at face value to imply Tarkin acted in his capacity as governor, and that any region he may have governed may have encompassed almost all of the galaxy. He's not a viceroy. Furthermore, governors' expanded mandate does not make it reasonable that they should be permitted to destroy at will member worlds enjoying Senatorial franchise. Should I assume that even if Bush was to autocoup the government, and set up state governors as his satraps, it would naturally follow they could nuke their Congressional districts at will, much less any district anywhere? What is leading you to your conclusions is not the face value of the film, but your own tenuous internal grasp on political science.

To sum up thus far, you've backpedaled from the untenable claim that it was Tarkin's expanded gubernatorial authority that he destroyed Alderaan to the also untenable claim that it he acted by virtue of being Commander, Death Star. Which means you're basically at the wall admitting what I said earlier. That Tarkin was enjoying plenipotentiary authority for the suppressing of rebellion at Palpatine's behest. He had a go-anywhere, do-anything mandate to stamp out insurrection, and this was aside from his governor's chair or commander's chair.

And further (thanks to Publius for the quote):

VADER: "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems. The Emperor should be consulted."
TARKIN: "Do not think to challenge me! You're not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has given me a free hand in this affair, the decision is mine!" (Star Wars: The Original Radio Drama, Ep. 8, "Death Star's Transit")

Further: Image from the Rebellion Era Sourcebook

The Senate was not dissolved because of the Death Star. The Senate remained dissolved without the Death Star. Palpatine did not move to reinstate it, which means that the conventional accumulation and distribution of military capability and firepower, combined with political changes and innovations, was sufficient to dissolve the body. The Death Star was insurance and a deal-sealer. But it proved to be unnecessary (although the Empire did set-up its conventional warmaking ability without it after the dissolutio

Thanks for the gifts, Publius.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The very example you cited yourself: Alderaan. You stated that it didn't fall within Tarkin's jurisdiction since it wasn't located in his region. So which is it? Was the Death Star's AoO limited to Tarkin's jurisdiction or could it traverse the entire galaxy as needed? And what exactly ARE the "local systems" relative to the Death Star?

Do you understand that a gubernatorial jurisdiction is a matter of law and administration, and not of instant capability? If the Governor of Texas is handwaved a giant military and nuclear weapons with which it can roam about the rest of CONUS breaking shit, that does not make it a legal truth or reality that Texas is now the same as the U.S. Just ask Israel and its occupied territories policy. Furthermore, a weapons platform's fundamental operational range is not the same thing as its order-defined Area of Operations. CVNs can go anywhere, that doesn't mean they just do if the skipper wants to.

[Bilbo]

So then demonstrate that there were legal barriers to his authority. We can go around and around here til the heat death of the universe, but really all it comes down to is that you need to put up or shut up. You want to claim it has changed and there are now legal barriers in place? Prove it.

Let's back up here. I'm saying the senate was no longer a rubber stamp, not that they represented a legal barrier. Bilbo seems to be under the impression that they were cooperative to the very end despite evidence to the contrary.

Not a rubber stamp? They could not even keep Palpatine from disbanding them? If they had ANY power or SUPPORT from the general population then disbanding them would have done huge damage to Palpatine's image and shaken support for his still new Empire. Do we see this? Nope.

[Galvatron]

Tarkin was enjoying plenipotentiary authority for the suppressing of rebellion at Palpatine's behest. He had a go-anywhere, do-anything mandate to stamp out insurrection, and this was aside from his governor's chair or commander's chair.

Conceded.

The Senate was not dissolved because of the Death Star. The Senate remained dissolved without the Death Star.

True, but they didn't really hesitate to design and build another. It's long been my impression that the Empire was in decline ABY as a consequence of the Death Star's destruction. Granted, I can't prove any of this and the EU probably has a legion of evidence disagreeing with me.

Not a rubber stamp?

Nope. "Rubber stamp" implies they were cooperative; that they approved of the emperor's policies and actually supported him. Whether or not you believe that the senate was a check on his power, the dialogue makes it clear that they were growing more and more supportive of the rebellion and were more of a thorn in the emperor's side than some compliant "rubber stamp" would have been.

They could not even keep Palpatine from disbanding them? If they had ANY power or SUPPORT from the general population then disbanding them would have done huge damage to Palpatine's image and shaken support for his still new Empire. Do we see this? Nope.

What was the general population supposed to do following the destruction of Alderaan? The Death Star rendered pointless any such reaction to the senate's dissolution. And Palpatine DID lose support if you take into account the celebrations at the end of ROTJ. Hell, Luke hated the Empire when he was still just a farmboy on Tatooine.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Tarkin was enjoying plenipotentiary authority for the suppressing of rebellion at Palpatine's behest. He had a go-anywhere, do-anything mandate to stamp out insurrection, and this was aside from his governor's chair or commander's chair.

Conceded.

Hey, this version of Tarkin is more in line with your vision anyway.

The Senate was not dissolved because of the Death Star. The Senate remained dissolved without the Death Star.

True, but they didn't really hesitate to design and build another. It's long been my impression that the Empire was in decline ABY as a consequence of the Death Star's destruction. Granted, I can't prove any of this and the EU probably has a legion of evidence disagreeing with me.

I do think that the ARR got a big boost, but whether the Empire was really "in crisis," or just went from "placid arrogance" to "risk of crisis" I think is probably more likely the latter. The genius of Palpatine is that if he had to, he could reconvene the Senate (remember legally, it was just prorogued for the duration of the emergancy - perfectly in line with the Throne's prerogatives - and it was issued publicly and privately by Ars Dangor, not Saint Palpatine the Incorruptible: "If only he knew!").

Not a rubber stamp?

Nope. "Rubber stamp" implies they were cooperative; that they approved of the emperor's policies and actually supported him. Whether or not you believe that the senate was a check on his power, the dialogue makes it clear that they were growing more and more supportive of the rebellion and were more of a thorn in the emperor's side than some compliant "rubber stamp" would have been.

We do not really know the political disposition of the Senate. I personally think that the COMPNOR types were probably increasing their share of support, but the republicans were becoming more and more radical and stand-offish. In other words, partisanization and balkanization of the Senate, with an increasing desire to support direct challenge, compared to the beginning of the Empire. Rather than a growing minority openly supporting rebellion.

What was the general population supposed to do following the destruction of Alderaan? The Death Star rendered pointless any such reaction to the senate's dissolution. And Palpatine DID lose support if you take into account the celebrations at the end of ROTJ. Hell, Luke hated the Empire when he was still just a farmboy on Tatooine.

If you follow the quote about Biggs Darklighter in ANH and the DESB, you find it was not Palpatine personally who was hated, but the Empire institutionally (especially in the Outer Rim, but recall this had been the base of Seperatism, so Rebel sympathies and tendencies are not really surprising).

[Ender]

not Saint Palpatine the Incorruptible: "If only he knew!").

The populace referred to him as "Emperor Palpatine the Great", not "Saint Palpatine the Incorruptible."

Yeah, Stover gave us all kinds of goodies in the new book.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If I recall vaguely, the signatories of the Delegation of 2000 were a minority in the Senate, and given that most were either driven out or imprisoned, or their worlds "dealt with", it's quite possible the Senate was dominated by Palpatine's supporters.

It's speculatory of course.

[Tiriol]

If I recall vaguely, the signatories of the Delegation of 2000 were a minority in the Senate, and given that most were either driven out or imprisoned, or their worlds "dealt with", it's quite possible the Senate was dominated by Palpatine's supporters.

It's speculatory of course.

However, the Imperial officer discussing the apprehension of Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan prior to the destruction of Alderaan by Tarkin's Death Star noted that the Senate's support for the Rebellion was increasing. Whether it meant that more and more Senators were openly or secretly giving support for the Rebel Alliance or simply starting to act against Palpatine's centralization programs is unclear; it would be strange, though, for Imperial Senators to be OPENLY supporting a revolt against the lawful government and still remain within the Senate (Mon Mothma didn't do so, certainly; and neither did Leia Organa, although by the time she was openly a Rebel, the Senate itself was no more).