Reverse-Engineering

[Bilbo]

So exactly duplicating futuretech is nearly impossible. But what about hints that accelerate subsequent developments by pushing science in directions they would not have thought of earlier. For example in the modern airplane in 1917 case they now know at a laymans level of understanding how jet engines work. Maybe this leads first flying jet plane being built earlier ?

Perhaps the biggest effect an advanced piece of technology sent back in time would have would be political. It's easy to say "well, science is kinda useful...but we like tax breaks more". When you have a more advanced piece of technology, something that is hard evidence that something is doable, it is a powerful political weapon for those in favor of more research and development. That jet plane might not contribute anything to the science beyond 'we know it can be done', but it will get resources and time devoted to science, particularly if it manages to spark an arms race in aviation technology.

It could horribly backfire though. Politician shows off advanced tech and uses it to get funding for this or that project. But years later when there are still no tangible results because there are just too many gaps in your science to make progess to get anywhere.

[Darth Wong]

Question from a complete layman and I admit off the point to a degree. How are new alloys developed? Is it litterally a hit or miss brute force approach? Keep trying different combinations, temperatures, etc until you get something that works?

New alloys are not developed often, except for very specific purposes. The hit-and-miss approach might work eventually, but it tends to be based on ever-increasing scientific knowledge of the way materials work, how their characteristics relate to their constituents and microstructure, and improving methods of altering their microstructure through processing.

In other words, advances in science allow us to make increasingly good predictions of how well certain materials will fare, and advances in processing allow us to create materials that we could not necessarily make before. Neither of these are available to a primitive civilization with a piece of our metal in their hands.

[Bilbo]

Question from a complete layman and I admit off the point to a degree. How are new alloys developed? Is it litterally a hit or miss brute force approach? Keep trying different combinations, temperatures, etc until you get something that works?

New alloys are not developed often, except for very specific purposes. The hit-and-miss approach might work eventually, but it tends to be based on ever-increasing scientific knowledge of the way materials work, how their characteristics relate to their constituents and microstructure, and improving methods of altering their microstructure through processing.

In other words, advances in science allow us to make increasingly good predictions of how well certain materials will fare, and advances in processing allow us to create materials that we could not necessarily make before. Neither of these are available to a primitive civilization with a piece of our metal in their hands.

Thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

[Sky Captain]

Too bad this tread did`t came up few weeks earlier when I had a dispute with guy claiming US military are secretly reverse engineering alien technology from crashed alien spacecraft. It would have been very helpful to show that guy how it would be practically impossible for us to reverse engineer something that is based on science and technology centuries ahead of us.

It`s like sending a nuclear submarine back to 18 th century and asking them to reverse engineer it.

[Darth Wong]

Too bad this tread did`t came up few weeks earlier when I had a dispute with guy claiming US military are secretly reverse engineering alien technology from crashed alien spacecraft. It would have been very helpful to show that guy how it would be practically impossible for us to reverse engineer something that is based on science and technology centuries ahead of us.

It`s like sending a nuclear submarine back to 18 th century and asking them to reverse engineer it.

When someone says something retarded like "the US is secretly reverse-engineering crashed alien spacecraft", there's so much to attack that one doesn't know where to start.

[PeZook]

When someone says something retarded like "the US is secretly reverse-engineering crashed alien spacecraft", there's so much to attack that one doesn't know where to start.

Well, debating conspiracy retards is mostly useless, anyway

Especially when they butcher science horribly, so you have to spend time educating them on basic principles.

[Stuart]

It`s like sending a nuclear submarine back to 18 th century and asking them to reverse engineer it.

That's a very, very good example, much better than my use of a jet in 1917.

"What the devil is that thing?"

"Well, its a bit like that thing Cornelius Drebbel was building a few years back. Remember that crazy Dutchman? A submarine he called it."

"Yeah, did that ever work? Look at those pipes sticking up out of the top. I bet that's where they hang the sails."

"Then how does it go underwater? No wind down there."

"I bet its that thing at the back. I've seen something like that, somewhere before. One of Leonardo's pictures? Anyway, I bet if we go inside there's something that turns it around."

"Men using a hand crank perhaps?"

"That'd work."

"Hey people, come around the bows. She's got cannon up there. Six at least, behind gunports. Big ones too, I'd guess at least 68 pounders, could be twice that."

DING DING

"She's made of metal. How can they get iron to float?"

(The assembled scientists all start hitting the speaker with their hats.)

"Of course she can float imbecile. Anybody can make iron float, Archimedes proved that. She's heavy though, look how much of her is below the water."

"Wrought iron?"

"Certainly. They'll have used the most modern materials available. Wonderful thing isn't she. Well, we've learned as much as we can from out here, let's go inside and have a look."

(Five minutes later)

"????????????????????"

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

"????????????????????"

Imagine if they set the reactor to critical, and next a mushroom cloud.

[MJ12 Commando]

Imagine if they set the reactor to critical, and next a mushroom cloud.

Not going to happen. The worst they could do is cause a severe meltdown.

[Isolder74]

Imagine if they set the reactor to critical, and next a mushroom cloud.

Not going to happen. The worst they could do is cause a severe meltdown.

If it's a SSBN they might be able to accidentally set off one of the Nuclear Missiles to get that to happen while they are tinkering with it. The main point is that they hardly know what radioactivity is, being before the Curries, how would they even grasp the concept of Nuclear Fusion?

[General Zod]

If it's a SSBN they might be able to accidentally set off one of the Nuclear Missiles to get that to happen while they are tinkering with it. The main point is that they hardly know what radioactivity is, being before the Curries, how would they even grasp the concept of Nuclear Fusion?

Wouldn't the nuclear missiles require special codes to so much as detonate? I don't see anything accidentally going off there unless they manage to somehow get it out of the silo and crack open the casing.

[Surlethe]

If it's a SSBN they might be able to accidentally set off one of the Nuclear Missiles to get that to happen while they are tinkering with it. The main point is that they hardly know what radioactivity is, being before the Curries, how would they even grasp the concept of Nuclear Fusion?

Wouldn't the nuclear missiles require special codes to so much as detonate? I don't see anything accidentally going off there unless they manage to somehow get it out of the silo and crack open the casing.

Even then, if they accidentally set it off they'd probably get a dud. The successful detonation of a nuclear device (explosion of an a-bomb?) requires extremely precise geometric conditions to sustain criticality for as long as possible. If they're not met, you get the equivalent of a North Korean bomb: a small nuclear detonation, but nothing spectacular.

[General Zod]

Even then, if they accidentally set it off they'd probably get a dud. The successful detonation of a nuclear device (explosion of an a-bomb?) requires extremely precise geometric conditions to sustain criticality for as long as possible. If they're not met, you get the equivalent of a North Korean bomb: a small nuclear detonation, but nothing spectacular.

Even a small nuclear detonation for the 18th century would be pretty fantastic, however. Of course I'd be impressed if they even managed to figure out how to get access to the missile from the silo in the first place. Let alone activating any of the computer equipment.

[Stuart]

They wouldn't set anything off or explode anything. More likely......

"Right, well, it was hard work but we got these rod-like things out of the machinery. It looks like that bit gets really hot and boils water. How clever, this stuff must be some sort of coal. Now, I wonder why it's warm to the touch, I wonder how they managed to set it on fire to heat the water up and I wonder why I seem to be growing a second head?"

They'd recognize rockets no problem, that's familiar art, but they'd fall flat when it came to doing anything with them. They literally wouldn't know how to start wiorking anything. Even a simple thing like pushing a card access key into a slot......

"So that's what we do with the card. Now suppose we push this button here."

BAWHOOOOM

"Hey guess what, all the fish in the harbor have just died........."

"Ahhh, so this is a FISHING BOAT!!!! 'Sonar' must be its nets."

[Zixinus]

That sort of story, with Victorians discovering a modern submarine that somehow got sent back in time, would be interesting to write and read.

EDIT: *Reads Stuar posts.*

BAHAHAHAHA!

But sometimes inventions are just a matter of the right idea coming along. Imagine sending a Gutenberg printing press back to Ancient Rome in 1 A.D. Its value would be recognized immediately, and I'm guessing that it wouldn't be too complex for the Roman's ironworking capabilities to build a replica.

Or they would be utterly ignored as the Romans would not see their value for one reason or another. After all, I recall that there was a steam engine built in Alexandria but never used.

That, and you will need ALLOT of paper available to make it useful. Did the Romans have that?

[General Zod]

That, and you will need ALLOT of paper available to make it useful. Did the Romans have that?

The Romans did in fact, have a great deal of paper available. Considering they were one of the most literate societies in the world at the time.

[Beowulf]

So, if you want to change history, you don't send a jet fighter to 1930, but rather send a library to 100 BC?

[Isolder74]

But what kind of Library? The Library of Alexandria was full of great stuff and that was eventually lost because of military attacks on the city and fires. Would a person in 100 BC given a book detailing how to build a Watts Steam Engine even know where to begin to build the thing?

[General Zod]

But what kind of Library? The Library of Alexandria was full of great stuff and that was eventually lost because of military attacks on the city and fires. Would a person in 100 BC given a book detailing how to build a Watts Steam Engine even know where to begin to build the thing?

Send them back books detailing the basic principles of modern science, from chemistry to metallurgy to physics along with books on how to make use of machines they don't have yet that will improve their production and lives a few hundred times over. They might even get a leg up on making reliable flintlocks and other basic projectile weaponry.

[Guardsman Bass]

But what kind of Library? The Library of Alexandria was full of great stuff and that was eventually lost because of military attacks on the city and fires. Would a person in 100 BC given a book detailing how to build a Watts Steam Engine even know where to begin to build the thing?

Send them back books detailing the basic principles of modern science, from chemistry to metallurgy to physics along with books on how to make use of machines they don't have yet that will improve their production and lives a few hundred times over. They might even get a leg up on making reliable flintlocks and other basic projectile weaponry.

How much chemistry does it take to make a basic antibiotic? If possible, I'd send that along with a picture-laden guide for medieval-style windmills, plows, and a diagram showing the best way to use the crop rotation system.

[PeZook]

How much chemistry does it take to make a basic antibiotic?

You need germ theory first. Otherwise, the people using it will just think it's a "miracle drug" and use it (probably pennicilin, since it's the easiest to make) willy-nilly, rendering the whole thing useless rather quickly, and unable to figure out why.

[Isolder74]

How much chemistry does it take to make a basic antibiotic?

You need germ theory first. Otherwise, the people using it will just think it's a "miracle drug" and use it (probably pennicilin, since it's the easiest to make) willy-nilly, rendering the whole thing useless rather quickly, and unable to figure out why.

Yes the only way to make modern medicine work would be to send Louise Pasture back in time. Without his concepts, if they'd not call him a witch or something and kill him, even basic antibiotics would not work as the discovery of Penicillin requires the culturing of bacteria and the knowledge of what they are.

[Dave]

Going back to the nuclear submarine example, don't they carry manuals and procedure-booklets for everything done onboard the ship?

If the scientists started their interior investigation with those, they would probably do better than pushing random buttons. And if you were in their position, wouldn't you start reading all the documentation before you touched many other things?

[Bilbo]

Going back to the nuclear submarine example, don't they carry manuals and procedure-booklets for everything done onboard the ship?

If the scientists started their interior investigation with those, they would probably do better than pushing random buttons. And if you were in their position, wouldn't you start reading all the documentation before you touched many other things?

Any books they do find are not going to be "The Dummies guide to Nuclear Submarines" they are going to be very specific very technical manuals written in such a style that an 18th or 19th century reader may think they are in a foreign language. These are going to be books written by experts for experts.

[Terralthra]

Data had the episode with the virus where his system rebooted and restored from some internal backup. I cannot think of another time when he had select portions of his memory removed.

There was one episode in season 7 where he was sent to some planet to retrieve some radioactive material and an accident caused most all of his memories to be erased. He was also hit with mass amnesia along with everyone else in the crew in a Season 5 episode.

Just as a matter of accuracy, Data did not have his memory wiped in Clues, the season 5 episode in question. Data was ordered not to tell anyone about the events preceding the mindwipe(s) by Picard, and his odd behavior due to these orders was a large part of the crew figuring out what had happened.