Most EFFECTIVE military training programs

[TheMuffinKing]

The reactor may have been causing interference.

Which means we can travel acorss the galaxy but we cannot make a radio that works near a reactor, or we are too stupid to take the radios that will work even though we know from looking at the blueprints that we will be going into the basement of a giant reactor.

We have radios and equipment today that can talk to satellites and across the Earth, yet they don't always work as advertised. It's not like they fight inside a reactor every day. Also, it's not like they bulid their radios before a mission, there's no magic fabricator that says "oh hey guys, let me build this super awesome interference-proof radio because I know you will be fighting biological killing machines in a fusion reactor, lol". They went with what they had, which is probably meant more for fighting in Earth like environs, or even space.

[Darth Ruinus]

Which means we can travel acorss the galaxy but we cannot make a radio that works near a reactor, or we are too stupid to take the radios that will work even though we know from looking at the blueprints that we will be going into the basement of a giant reactor.

Well, as TheMuffinKing pointed out it may just be the case that being so close to a reactor (they were worried about accidentally hitting something critical and blowing themselves all up) causes their radios to malfunction. Their radios might not be suited to such environments, either because no one is ever expected to see combat so close to what might essentially be a big explosive, or because their particular outfit (is that the word?) isn't equipped for that. They were after all, just showing up to rescue some colonists.

Also, they didn't know they were walking into a giant reactor. They only realized this after they were already in there.

Who do the Colonial Marines normally fight? They threw around the term "bughunt" enough to suggest that dealing with hostile alien wildlife is fairly common for them. But in the Alien universe are there other intelligent species that humanity fights? Or has humanity taken itslf into the stars and is still fighting itself?

Why can't they fight both? The Aliens-verse has alwas given me the expression that humanity has had experience with the xenos before, what with Weyland-Yutani being sent around to capture them before, and even planned to build their own bio-weapons out of them (I don't remember if this is from Ressurection or from one of the games) So it could be that the Marines have heard of these xenos before (hence the term "bughunt") but aren't told what to expect when they actually fight them. Hell, they weren't even told that Burke was there to retrieve a sample.

Not only that, but the damn colonists themselves had already captured some samples.

[SylasGaunt]

Why can't they fight both? The Aliens-verse has alwas given me the expression that humanity has had experience with the xenos before, what with Weyland-Yutani being sent around to capture them before, and even planned to build their own bio-weapons out of them (I don't remember if this is from Ressurection or from one of the games) So it could be that the Marines have heard of these xenos before (hence the term "bughunt") but aren't told what to expect when they actually fight them. Hell, they weren't even told that Burke was there to retrieve a sample.

Not only that, but the damn colonists themselves had already captured some samples.

Aside from Ripley's run in with them this particular brand of nasty had never been encountered before. That much is made clear in the movie.

The Colonial marines tech manual also mentions that they do participate in clearing out nasty local fauna on a semi-regular basis. But as far as the manual goes it's basically big dangerous animals, no intelligent life encountered thus far aside from the crashed Jockey ship in Alien (and the occasional party of big game hunters if we include AVP).

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yep, fire discipline SOOO good that the heavy machingunners both disobeyed ordered and rearmed their weapons. SOOO good that a marine nearly gunned down a small child.

Yep these guys are the ELITE and show excellent discipline.

Not sure what this has to do with Consequences point that FOG is a moron because he's holding people accountable for their actions even though they're being violently dragged away?

Furthermore, the heavy machine gunners disobeying an incompetent order doesn't make them incompetent. As for them nearly killing a small child. Yeah, that's bad on the one who failed to ID his target. Not the entire fucking unit. You and FOG seem to live in this world where even properly trained soldiers don't fuck up or make mistakes. To that I say welcome to the real world.

[Darth Ruinus]

Aside from Ripley's run in with them this particular brand of nasty had never been encountered before. That much is made clear in the movie.

Burke was sent to collect samples. I've got the movie, so I can watch it later on (probably tomorrow) to look for more details.

But as far as the manual goes it's basically big dangerous animals, no intelligent life encountered thus far aside from the crashed Jockey ship in Alien (and the occasional party of big game hunters if we include AVP).

The Marines fight the Predators too don't they? The Aliens and Predator franchises are basically merged into one aren't they?

[SylasGaunt]

Burke was sent to collect samples. I've got the movie, so I can watch it later on (probably tomorrow) to look for more details.

Yeah he sends the colonists to get them AFTER Ripley gives her debrief. Before he told them where to look nobody on the colony even knew the ship was there.

The Marines fight the Predators too don't they? The Aliens and Predator franchises are basically merged into one aren't they?

They're linked by AVP yes, it all depends whether that's being taken into account or not. If it is then that means there's been a grand total of 2 intelligent aliens races that humans have encountered, the Jockeys and the Preds.

[consequences]

Wow, managed to miss this one. Point out where Dietrich had her weapon pointed down enough to achieve a blue on blue, before the armor plated killing machine started yanking her towards the ceiling(incidentally also turning her slightly to bring Frost within her potential line of fire). In fact, the marines' weapons discipline wasn't bad at all before they made contact, and they looked to be making damned sure that they weren't going to accidentally shoot each other(weapons pointed upwards, especially when crossing behind another marine).

I'd do a frame by frame check on the trigger guard, but I'm working off of a frakking On-Demand movie right now which means I can't even pause the thing without her hands on the flamer being obscured.

So kindly piss off unless you have something useful, relevant, and based on the facts at hand to present.

Yep, fire discipline SOOO good that the heavy machingunners both disobeyed ordered and rearmed their weapons. SOOO good that a marine nearly gunned down a small child.

Yep these guys are the ELITE and show excellent discipline.

First, discipline in preventing potential blue on blue incidents isn't the same as discipline in ammo expenditure, or disobeying blatantly suicidal orders(when an ammo cookoff including grenades means that the reactor's probably as fucked as fucked can be anyway). Way to shift goalposts though.

Second, you notice how the only non-acid splash casualty after they open up is Apone? When they'd had movement coming in from all directions, from critters faster than them? When the total volume of suppressive fire available apart from the smartguns is one pistol and one shotgun? Now, with your incredible mastery of ALL CAPS words in the MIDDLE of sentences, can you reach any KIND of valid conclusion from that or WILL you try to shift again to some other fuckup that they made?

And yes, they shot at Newt. Panic reaction, shit happens, never claimed that they were perfect. Never claimed that real life troops were perfect either, especially not any that I've personally known.

Elite I can't say, but there were at least three obviously experienced troops in the bunch. Hicks, because he was able to grab sleep in the middle of a drop, and Vasquez and Drake, who not only bought spare off the books ammo, but waited until the situation had gone irretrievably to shit to use it(in case you managed to miss it, all the ammo's gone, along with two out of three flamers). Add in the seemingly inevitable unit joker in the form of Hudson, and I have to give serious credit to whoever was providing the advice on military interactions.

[Bilbo]

Yep, fire discipline SOOO good that the heavy machingunners both disobeyed ordered and rearmed their weapons. SOOO good that a marine nearly gunned down a small child.

Yep these guys are the ELITE and show excellent discipline.

Not sure what this has to do with Consequences point that FOG is a moron because he's holding people accountable for their actions even though they're being violently dragged away?

Furthermore, the heavy machine gunners disobeying an incompetent order doesn't make them incompetent. As for them nearly killing a small child. Yeah, that's bad on the one who failed to ID his target. Not the entire fucking unit. You and FOG seem to live in this world where even properly trained soldiers don't fuck up or make mistakes. To that I say welcome to the real world.

Vazquez and Drake damaged the reactor and caused a thermonuclear explosion. In the long run it doesnt matter since Hicks would have just nuked from orbit if he could but makes one wonder how close they came to causing a much sooner explosion.

But your right, the biggest moron move was Apone. He should have straight up told the Lt that disarming was inadvisable and that the squads were going to withdraw th equip with weapons safe to use.

Curious - Do we see how effective the flamers are on adult aliens? It burns pods we know but in Alien 3 we see an Alien survive a bath in molten lead so I am wondering if the flamers were of any real use against the aliens.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Vazquez and Drake damaged the reactor and caused a thermonuclear explosion. In the long run it doesnt matter since Hicks would have just nuked from orbit if he could but makes one wonder how close they came to causing a much sooner explosion.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I thought it was the dropship crash that caused serious damage to the reactor.

But your right, the biggest moron move was Apone. He should have straight up told the Lt that disarming was inadvisable and that the squads were going to withdraw th equip with weapons safe to use.

No. Apone was a good PLT. Sgt. he followed his chain of command. This is a concept that a few people here seem to have a hard time with. You can't just disobey your superiors orders just because they aren't intelligent. The only orders you can legally disobey are those that are illegal. The one who is at fault is Lt. Gorman. He should have pulled them back and reevaluated the situation. Who knows maybe the thing had a SCRAM switch.

Curious - Do we see how effective the flamers are on adult aliens? It burns pods we know but in Alien 3 we see an Alien survive a bath in molten lead so I am wondering if the flamers were of any real use against the aliens.

We know that they don't like it. As for molten lead...well that's pretty hot shit so they might have a very high heat tolerance.

[TheMuffinKing]

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I thought it was the dropship crash that caused serious damage to the reactor.

Curious - Do we see how effective the flamers are on adult aliens? It burns pods we know but in Alien 3 we see an Alien survive a bath in molten lead so I am wondering if the flamers were of any real use against the aliens.

We know that they don't like it. As for molten lead...well that's pretty hot shit so they might have a very high heat tolerance.

I remember Bishop telling them it was the crash, it gets mention during a scene in the control center while they witness the plasma venting.

As for the flamers Vs. lead, both are indeed hot but IF the flamers shower the aliens with jellied fuel that could cause more damage over a greater length of time, heck maybe they are flammable.

[Battlehymn Republic]

As far as special forces goes, nothing is better than the GURPS Black Ops.

[Bilbo]

No. Apone was a good PLT. Sgt. he followed his chain of command. This is a concept that a few people here seem to have a hard time with. You can't just disobey your superiors orders just because they aren't intelligent. The only orders you can legally disobey are those that are illegal. The one who is at fault is Lt. Gorman. He should have pulled them back and reevaluated the situation. Who knows maybe the thing had a SCRAM switch.

Curious - Do we see how effective the flamers are on adult aliens? It burns pods we know but in Alien 3 we see an Alien survive a bath in molten lead so I am wondering if the flamers were of any real use against the aliens.

We know that they don't like it. As for molten lead...well that's pretty hot shit so they might have a very high heat tolerance.

Sorry didnt mean to suggest disobeying orders. Apone could have "suggested" they withdraw to better equip. He didnt do anything like this. He just took the ammo.

As for lead versus flamer. The alien in Alien 3 was completely submerged in what appeared to be 8 to10 feet of liquid lead that the Alien had to swim out to escape. Even if the flamer is more of a napalm sticky I cannot see it doing more damage than the lead.

[Alyeska]

Sorry didnt mean to suggest disobeying orders. Apone could have "suggested" they withdraw to better equip. He didnt do anything like this. He just took the ammo.

Suggestions from a SGt that contradict the LTs orders is disobeying orders, or in the very least questioning the leader infront of his troops. A very bad mistake as well.

As for lead versus flamer. The alien in Alien 3 was completely submerged in what appeared to be 8 to10 feet of liquid lead that the Alien had to swim out to escape. Even if the flamer is more of a napalm sticky I cannot see it doing more damage than the lead.

Lead has a fairly low melting point. Its possible that the flame throwers have a sufficiently high level of heat to genuinely hurt Aliens.

[Bilbo]

Sorry didnt mean to suggest disobeying orders. Apone could have "suggested" they withdraw to better equip. He didnt do anything like this. He just took the ammo.

Suggestions from a SGt that contradict the LTs orders is disobeying orders, or in the very least questioning the leader infront of his troops. A very bad mistake as well.

As for lead versus flamer. The alien in Alien 3 was completely submerged in what appeared to be 8 to10 feet of liquid lead that the Alien had to swim out to escape. Even if the flamer is more of a napalm sticky I cannot see it doing more damage than the lead.

Lead has a fairly low melting point. Its possible that the flame throwers have a sufficiently high level of heat to genuinely hurt Aliens.

First off the private mike would allow him to make the suggestion, unless Apone already knew that was the only ammo available so it wouldnt matter. So that is always a possibility. Your right it would be a courtmartial offense potentially but if Gorman had made it back to Earth he would have definitely been courtmartialed for his poor command choices that got his unit killed.

Flame throwers are about 4 times as hot as lead melts at but the lead in question was much more than minimum melt temp since it flowed so easily and it was complete immersion which would really make it harsh. I do not remember seeing any adult aliens harmed with flamers, though it at least stung the Queen when Ripley shot at her through the grating of the elevator.

[kinnison]

I suppose it is necessary to define what exactly "training program" means. Most of the fictional programmes being discussed are using genetically superior or geneered candidates for the training; it might be better to discuss how well each programme uses the people it gets.

I am somewhat surprised that nobody (until now! ) has mentioned the Dorsai or the Sardaukar. I am specifically not mentioning the Fremen; as described they appear to be warriors rather than soldiers, and there is a distinction.

Both groups are using candidates honed by evolution to some degree, but not to such an extent that it dominates the outcome.

Just my $0.02.

[PeZook]

Dudes, since when saying "May I suggest we withdraw and rearm?" is a court-martial offence?

It doesn't even contradict Gorman's orders: they could withdraw while disarmed just fine, and it's still the officer's call to approve or disapprove. What's the problem?

[Black Admiral]

There isn't one, and Apone did try to suggest something along other than disarming the section and sending them deeper into the hive to Gorman - but he was cut off and ordered to "Just do it, Sergeant", by the inexperienced Lt.

[Bilbo]

There isn't one, and Apone did try to suggest something along other than disarming the section and sending them deeper into the hive to Gorman - but he was cut off and ordered to "Just do it, Sergeant", by the inexperienced Lt.

I got the impression that Apone was more asking why which is what so irritated Gorman who as a snot nosed punk Lt probably had major self confidence issues in regard to his troops, all of which had tons more experience than him. So the Lt shot down Apone immediatly.

[MJ12 Commando]

As far as special forces goes, nothing is better than the GURPS Black Ops.

That's mainly because Black Ops is a cinematic setting and you're playing Rambo, James Bond, or Gordon Freeman. It is over the top and purposely so. It is also somewhat inefficient and only excused since the Company needs to stay covert and that means less people is better.

A lot of excessively brutal training regimen have reasons (although Freehold's is needless sadism). The SMs do theirs because their limit isn't manpower but geneseed, etc. Efficient training programs are going to conserve the resource you most want conserved.

In the case of most interstellar powers manpower is cheap but hauling a dude ten thousand light years sucks and is expensive, so higher attrition rates in training are more acceptable.

[Littlefoot]

No he is pointing out that the marine in question was holding his weapon wrong long before he was grabbed which is what caused him to torch his buddies when he was grabbed. If he had kept his finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard which is how you are supposed to hold a weapon every second of every day except when you are pulling said trigger this would not have happened.

Guess that makes you the fucking moron.

Not really. In a violent situation like that accidents can still happen even if someone is following the rules. Which is what Consequence has been saying this entire time. Now, unless you can tell me that the marine in question had his finger in the trigger guard prior to being attacked then you don't have jack and shit...and jack left town, motherfucker.

While I agree that accidents can happen, please answer the following: Why in the Nine Hells are the SF dudes walking around while clicked off safe?

Why did they surrender all of their magazines to one man to begin with instead of securing them indiviually in case they needed them? Also what about spare magazines? Isn't the typical loadout today one in the rifle and six backups for an M-16?

I'm guessing they did this due to the unknown (to the marines) nature of the threat. They probably figured they could consolidate their ammo and leave it with one guy because they would encounter all the colonists huddled together, not a hive of alien killing machines. Granted this does not excuse what they did, even the green Lt. should have exercised better judgment. As for loadouts, I thought each force tailored it to the situation, granted in my experience I did have six mags in pouches and one for my rifle though I was in the USAF.

Does the Colonial marines tech manual shed more light on the subject? I don't have a copy.

Same here on the load out. I drove AAVs and still carried a full 6 on my vest, one inserted, and one in a buttstock pouch (8 total). It was SOP for every Marine to carry a full complement of ammo while outside the wire. If this was a highly trained unit, then if the Lt didn't want rounds going off he should have verified that all weapons were on safe, if not going as far as to go con3. In an uncertain and possibly hostile tactical situation, the absolute worst thing you could do is to take away your Marines ammo. Also, on the main question, any training must do a few basic things. It must instill a warior spirit and temper that spirit with strict discipline. It must cultivate loyalty not only to the state/church/emperor/spaceturd, but to superior officers and fellow soldiers. To be effective in combat the soldier must display instant and willing obediance to lawful orders and be capable of violence of action. All this must be done without destroying the values the soldier is fighting for. Anything less and you sow the seeds of dissent, rebelion, and ultimatly failure, in both your military and the society they return to. No technology can undo or replace these things and still require training in anything but technical knowledge.

[Pulp Hero]

Also, at some point, some actual training with the equipment should be thrown in. I hate "HARDCORE-GRIMDARK" training that never actually trains the soldiers with their gear.

[Littlefoot]

Also, at some point, some actual training with the equipment should be thrown in. I hate "HARDCORE-GRIMDARK" training that never actually trains the soldiers with their gear.

Basic training with weapons and gear in the preliminary phases, yes. But initialy the focus needs to be in making a warrior. Once that is done then refine and perfect thier weapons proficency and thier use of any gear that directly affects it. Once that is done then specialize.

[consequences]

No he is pointing out that the marine in question was holding his weapon wrong long before he was grabbed which is what caused him to torch his buddies when he was grabbed. If he had kept his finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard which is how you are supposed to hold a weapon every second of every day except when you are pulling said trigger this would not have happened.

Guess that makes you the fucking moron.

Not really. In a violent situation like that accidents can still happen even if someone is following the rules. Which is what Consequence has been saying this entire time. Now, unless you can tell me that the marine in question had his finger in the trigger guard prior to being attacked then you don't have jack and shit...and jack left town, motherfucker.

While I agree that accidents can happen, please answer the following: Why in the Nine Hells are the SF dudes walking around while clicked off safe?

Someone's chest just exploded revealing an alien monster, there's dead colonists all over the walls, and you've got movement coming in from all directions, but you can't see a damned thing. Are you really going to want to spend that extra fraction of a second flicking the safety if something pops up right in front of you?

This is leaving aside the fact that we don't actually know that it was off safe. If the arrangement is anything like that on an M16 for instance, it's enitrely possible for a thumb flick to render the weapon ready to fire. No evidence that I'm aware of either way on that front though.

[Littlefoot]

I guess my recolection of that seen was a little fuzzy. I thught the flamer accident happened before the chest explodie.

[consequences]

I guess my recolection of that seen was a little fuzzy. I thught the flamer accident happened before the chest explodie.

It's cool. It seems like the movie comes on cable right before the whole reactor scene every weekend I spend at a friend's, so I have the events pretty fixed in my mind. Still need to get the dvd so I can frame by frame to see if Dietrich's finger was on or off the trigger though(presuming that's it's discernible).