Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-03 04:07pm

I actually read part of the Kobayashi Maru novel. From what I recall, only Sulu made the intelligent decision to keep his starship on the Federation side of the border where it belonged. According to the treaties in place at the time, entering the Neutral Zone with a Federation Starship was an act of war.

Funny though... shouldn't entering the Neutral Zone with a Klingon starship also be an act of war? Or was this another lop-sided peace agreement like the one the Federation eventually reached with the Cardassians?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-03 04:12pm

To be fair Wong, Trek has made it clear that the Federation and Strafleet are into building men as well as a militray machine. They would prefer a commander of great character than a militray genius who had little in the way of character.

Think of it this way, it fits in the mold the universe that Roddenberry was envisioning of new men, men that had evolved past the simple brutality and violence. Remmeber these are commanders that are well versed in the classics and philosophy. They are warrior poets (though in TNG and on I would venture to say far more poet than warrior)

Not great for a star spanning fascist empire, but just right for the feel good universe Rodenberry imagined. Remember, Gene was bullied into creating Klingons to be villians because he firmly believed that as a race became more advanced they would also advance moral wise. As much as you (and I ) may disagree with this it is a view that inspired a franchise that has grown since the 60's.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-02-03 04:13pm

Ted C wrote:I actually read part of the Kobayashi Maru novel. From what I recall, only Sulu made the intelligent decision to keep his starship on the Federation side of the border where it belonged. According to the treaties in place at the time, entering the Neutral Zone with a Federation Starship was an act of war.

Funny though... shouldn't entering the Neutral Zone with a Klingon starship also be an act of war? Or was this another lop-sided peace agreement like the one the Federation eventually reached with the Cardassians?

Might have to do with who enters the Neutral Zone first. Of course the Federation has a funny way with their treaties.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 04:14pm

It was an act of war for a ship from either side to enter (as it was for the Romulan Nuetral Zone), but only if you got caught doing it, I guess.

Once one side enters, I guess it's open season for the other side to hunt down your ass and blow it out of the sky if they catch you.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-03 04:14pm

That's all well and good, but I'd rather have Thrawn commanding my task force than any Starfleet admiral. You get your character on the battlefield, not in simulations.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-03 04:30pm

Stravo wrote:To be fair Wong, Trek has made it clear that the Federation and Strafleet are into building men as well as a militray machine. They would prefer a commander of great character than a militray genius who had little in the way of character.

Think of it this way, it fits in the mold the universe that Roddenberry was envisioning of new men, men that had evolved past the simple brutality and violence. Remmeber these are commanders that are well versed in the classics and philosophy. They are warrior poets (though in TNG and on I would venture to say far more poet than warrior)

Not great for a star spanning fascist empire, but just right for the feel good universe Rodenberry imagined. Remember, Gene was bullied into creating Klingons to be villians because he firmly believed that as a race became more advanced they would also advance moral wise. As much as you (and I ) may disagree with this it is a view that inspired a franchise that has grown since the 60's.

But its absolutely deplorable for any military that doesn't want to have its ass handed to it.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-02-03 05:08pm

Considering that Thrawn isn't afraid to back out of losing situations, he'd probably just stay in Federation space. After all, his first priority is the ship under his command.

CNS Sarajevo · Post by **CNS Sarajevo** » 2003-02-03 07:05pm

Since Thrawn would probably have good understandings of both Federation and Klingon psychology, he would probably recognize the trap, AND understand that it was a character test. I like SirNitram's idea the best though, it'd fit the Zahn novels.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-02-03 07:17pm

Thrawn says screw the transport ship and sets course for the Klingon homeworld (which I am not about to try and spell, lol) and once his ship arrives, he opens torpedos at the surface and maybe phasers too. A good old fashioned BDZ.

Seriously, what someone said (forgot who) that Thrawn would examine the situation and then simply forfeit is correct. Why bother with an unwinnable simulation when you could be in your quarters studying advanced Klingon and Romulan tactics?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-03 07:43pm

It seems to me that the smart move would be to contact the Klingon embassay, request assitance from the nearest ships on the Klingon's side, and go in slowly enough that if you see trouble, you can warp back out. You would probably still loose, but you might stop the war.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-03 07:47pm

CNS Sarajevo wrote:Since Thrawn would probably have good understandings of both Federation and Klingon psychology, he would probably recognize the trap, AND understand that it was a character test. I like SirNitram's idea the best though, it'd fit the Zahn novels.

While Thrawn could emerge unscathed from nasty odds, his true talent was strategic: He knew how to avoid unbeatable situations, split his opponents, scare them, and convince people he was on their side. Hence why I think he wouldn't even bother: Sure, he could try and take three enemy cruisers, but why? It's obviously built to be some sort of psychobabble nonsense, so the best thing to do is cut your losses and take it like a man.

And, most importantly, tell Pelleaon. This is another key part of Thrawn: He always kept his second in command in on his insights, so he could teach and mold Pelleaon's growth into admirality.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 08:05pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:It seems to me that the smart move would be to contact the Klingon embassay, request assitance from the nearest ships on the Klingon's side, and go in slowly enough that if you see trouble, you can warp back out. You would probably still loose, but you might stop the war.

Um... right...

Do you even know what the Kobayashi Maru simulation is or what it involves?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-03 08:21pm

Thrawn might pull a Mallow on them.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 08:25pm

Here's another question: would Thrawn find anything wrong with changing the programming of the simulation to make it possible to win (like Kirk did)?

Personally, I think he would. While he would disagree that a simulation that's only purpose is to test character, I don't think he would condone cheating at it, since you don't get those options in real life.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-02-03 08:29pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Thrawn might pull a Mallow on them.

A what?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-03 08:32pm

The only Mallow I know of is a candy.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-03 08:34pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Thrawn might pull a Mallow on them.

Mallow? From Mario RPG? What are you talking about?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-03 08:37pm

It refers to Hober Mallow from the Foundation Series.

He landed on a planet and found a injured Foundation Missionary. On the planet Missionarries were killed. A mob appeared and his ship was threatened. The moral question: Give up the missionary and let him die, or refuse to and die with him? Mallow chose to give him up.

He was tried for it. However he showed the supposed missionary was actually a member of the planet's Secret Police. It was all a lie. He would have died for nothing.

The same thing applies to Thrawn. He'd analyze it and ignore the distress call. Then he shows it was a no-win senario, with no way of rescuing the ship and therefore, useless.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-03 08:38pm

OOOH, okay. I had no clue what you were talking about.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-02-03 08:50pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:It refers to Hober Mallow from the Foundation Series.

He landed on a planet and found a injured Foundation Missionary. On the planet Missionarries were killed. A mob appeared and his ship was threatened. The moral question: Give up the missionary and let him die, or refuse to and die with him? Mallow chose to give him up.

He was tried for it. However he showed the supposed missionary was actually a member of the planet's Secret Police. It was all a lie. He would have died for nothing.

The same thing applies to Thrawn. He'd analyze it and ignore the distress call. Then he shows it was a no-win senario, with no way of rescuing the ship and therefore, useless.

Ah, thought you were talking about that tactic Thrawn used in the beginning of the first Thrawn book.

Crossover_Maniac · Post by **Crossover_Maniac** » 2003-02-03 09:32pm

KrauserKrauser wrote:I forgot what the scenario was.

I think it involved sacrificing friendly forces for the sake of the mission.

This is something the Empire understands that needs to be done in certain circumstances.

Thrawn pull a Kirk and cheats.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-03 09:35pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Here's another question: would Thrawn find anything wrong with changing the programming of the simulation to make it possible to win (like Kirk did)?

Personally, I think he would. While he would disagree that a simulation that's only purpose is to test character, I don't think he would condone cheating at it, since you don't get those options in real life.

Thrawn would have had to take the test previously for this to work. Kirk took the test 4 times IIRC. This is Thrawn's first time and he most likely won't know.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-03 09:38pm

Alyeska wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Here's another question: would Thrawn find anything wrong with changing the programming of the simulation to make it possible to win (like Kirk did)?

Personally, I think he would. While he would disagree that a simulation that's only purpose is to test character, I don't think he would condone cheating at it, since you don't get those options in real life.
Thrawn would have had to take the test previously for this to work. Kirk took the test 4 times IIRC. This is Thrawn's first time and he most likely won't know.

Thrawn would take the test and not give a shit how well he does. He would simply be pleased to get top-quality intelligence on the bridge layout, command structure, and general operating procedures of a Federation starship. The longer he could drag out the simulation, the happier he'd be. The fact that he "loses" would be of no importance to him whatsoever, since he would turn this knowledge into yet another lever, all in good time.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-02-03 09:55pm

I can imagine the look on everyones faces if Thrawn flawlessly destroys all the battlecruisers that come at him.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-03 09:58pm

Aya wrote:I can imagine the look on everyones faces if Thrawn flawlessly destroys all the battlecruisers that come at him.

I have doubts he could...Stravo has the correct mindset of why this is created for the Trekverse.

And Wong in his last post put very well what Thrawn would do with it...

But in the end unless he cheats and allows the program to have him win...the way they keep talking about the KM, the simulation would just have something pertinent fail and leave him at Square 1.

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Thrawn vs Kobayashi Maru

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