SGA 5x20 "Enemy at the Gate" Talkback (Series Finale)

[JME2]

The team learns that a rogue Wraith has acquired several ZPMs to power a formidable new hive ship -- and he is headed for Earth.

***

Well, I'm a bit early, but here we are. After five seasons, the second Stargate television series sees its final dawn. This also marks the end of an era for me; SGA premiered just as I entered college and now it's ending as I begin my last semester. It's had it's flaws, but it's been enjoyable overall and I will miss it. So, enough said, let's get the final Stargate: Atlantis talkback started...

[CaptJodan]

First off, let me say that this was a fundamentally better last episode than the one SG-1 gave us. That isn’t particularly hard to do, but plots that don’t end in MAJOR deux ex machina’s and/or reset buttons is a plus, especially for Stargate. An actual threat to Earth was something that was missing in the last episode of SG-1, not to mention not wasting time with things that never happened. The pacing and the story was pretty tight overall, keeping the viewer interested in what is going to happen next. As a result, it is not a “bad” episode. Also, for what I think is the first time in any SGA episode, they finally accounted for the Odyssey, Earth’s “super ship”. In fact, they accounted for most of the technology that they could bring to bear (with the exception of the phase cloak, which I’m not going to get into again). What ships that were available were kicked the snot out of, the chair was taken care of (more or less) and Atlantis was portrayed pretty much as it should be, as a terrible, terrible ship. I also enjoyed the fact that they put so many of the supporting casts in, even people we haven’t seen in a long time (Cavanaugh).

Things that caught my eye:

1. No massive drone swarm. NecronLord, how does your “that’s the sign of inexperience when it swarms massively” fit in to Beckett’s, certainly no expert, showing of force, even before they were under assault from the Hive? I’d actually argue the reverse, that the swarm is the sign of a skilled user able to control more drones at once than someone with less skill, given that O’Neill had the ancient knowledge and experience imbedded in his mind. This episode, for me, suggests that either Atlantis is just incapable of putting out a swarm as dense as a simple outpost, or if we take your theory and reverse it, a massive swarm requires a bit more ancient knowledge and know how. (and please don’t cite the Asurans again. We saw how inconsistent they are. They didn’t bother to use a single drone in “Be All My Sins Remembered”. Try to compare like-with-like here)

2. I got the overwhelming feeling that the Keller/Picardo chat in the medical bay was designed specifically to show that Keller was in this one, that they wanted to include everyone they could (she was obviously in later as well, but probably wanted to give her as much time as possible). Nothing wrong with that, but it was terribly noticeable, as it contributed absolutely nothing except her presence.

3. Copying some of what I said in spoilers earlier regarding the drone chair.

The fact that NO ONE was manning the damn thing. We brought Sheppard in to do the job, and instead he wants to go play cowboy with the Hive around the moon. There are no back-up people to man it (like perhaps O'Neill) and John basically does whatever the fuck he wants, ignoring the orders he had. Both Carter and Sheppard should be drummed out of the service for such blatant incompetence.

Note that this was probably the most noticeably annoying part of the entire episode for me. Everything else was moderate to minor, but I just couldn’t understand their retarded thinking on this one.

4. “We can’t sustain another hit.” Good thing they stopped that constant barrage of fire they’d been doing the entire time then. This is a brain bug that so many other series’ latch on to, so it’s not new or completely unexpected, but it is annoying.

5. We’ve seen what 304’s can do, how fast they can fire Asgard beams at a target they really, really want to kill. For some reason I can’t understand, Cadwell fired once, and didn’t continue the attack. They hadn’t just come out of hyperspace, so they wouldn’t have had power problems. We’ve seen them ambush Asuran vessels (and fight over their homeworld in a truly pitched battle) and they didn’t hold back, but this time they did, even knowing how real the threat was. The humans really gave the Wraith every opportunity to win throughout this episode.

6. How long did Atlantis doodle about up in the atmosphere before finally coming down and landing? The reason I ask is because, unless I’m mistaken, San Francisco is something of a busy port, and the amount of naval traffic (tankers, pleasure boats, warships, you name it), not to mention traffic in and around the land that might be tourist heavy, could not have been moved if they were in a hurry to get down. Even cloaked, people would no doubt notice the large wave, or the steam/spray/whatever coming from the water if they had not completely evacuated the area, not to mention the noise. I got the sense that they were on a trajectory towards a landing they had to make fairly soon, and this strained SOD to the breaking point to suggest that they got all the traffic out of visual range of a city landing (cloaked).

7. Duex Ex Machina Drive. I would have preferred if Zalenka had simply fixed what was wrong with the hyperdrive, rather than them inventing yet another new drive system out of thin air that we’ve never even heard of. Given the amount of distances they had already traveled, “the edge of the milky way” is a lot closer than McKay suggests (unless they have to somehow slow down within galaxies). It isn’t like the distance across the Milky Way, even from its farthest point, is anywhere near similar to the distances one has to travel to cross from one galaxy to another. But as I said, while this was a DEM, it wasn’t a major one. It could easily have been written in such a way that the hyperdrive was repaired and they still got to Earth in time, thus not really changing the plot all that much.

8. A personal preference, not an overall criticism, since it’s so minor, but I was surprised to see the Sun Tzu was before the Phoenix in this version of reality (the name Phoenix was next in line according to the future John visited). Personally, I would have preferred them switching to major figures in history names rather than their traditional naming system starting with the Hammond. I also would have expected it to be the George (middle initial) Hammond rather than the “General Hammond” we were told in the show, after naming conventions we are used to in our own verse. However, as a whole, I thought it was great that the next ship will be named “something” Hammond. I expect that ship not to be blown out the sky if we ever get the chance to see it.

* This is something that makes Keller’s research into a cure for the Wraith all the more appealing to me as a final (movie) end to the SGA storyline. I would like to see the movie focus on somehow disturbing the revised, improved cure to the Wraith as a means of “defeating” them, rather than the movie focus on yet another DEM. I’m begging you, Atlantis. Use tech we’ve seen before, and don’t pull another rabbit out of the hat.

[Themightytom]

the preview for SG:U at the end was so lame it pretty much screamed "Dear God, don't give up on us, theres another show coming!!!"

Do we ave to spoiler tag everything revealing because the title has no spoiler warning? i ask in all seriousness beause i get busted EVERy time over it
Spoiler

Also I'm guessing thats what the odyssey was up to, unless the new SG-1 movie won't include Sam.

[Themightytom]

That isn’t particularly hard to do, but plots that don’t end in MAJOR deux ex machina’s and/or reset buttons is a plus, especially for Stargate.

Spoiler

Well except for Ronan being brought back to life (reset button) by the wraith commander who while creating the most cedible threat the Atlantis and or humans at large, also managed to have the shortest on screen appearence EVER. "Hah, tell me what you know ACK Bullets! They pierce me!"

Also Atlantis invented a wormhole drive on the spot :-/

What ships that were available were kicked the snot out of,

Spoiler

OFFSCREEN for the msot aprt, what is this voyager? Also why don't they have more F302's? that was a measly little group considering their smaller to build than 304s

3. Copying some of what I said in spoilers earlier regarding the drone chair.

Note that this was probably the most noticeably annoying part of the entire episode for me. Everything else was moderate to minor, but I just couldn’t understand their retarded thinking on this one.

especially when they have the ATA gene therapy

The humans really gave the Wraith every opportunity to win throughout this episode.

Spoiler

listen this wasn't an ordinary hive ship, it was RED. You have to really think before firing on something like that.

[CaptJodan]

I'm pretty sure you don't need spoiler tags now that the episode has officially aired and we have the topic designated for the episode open.

Well except for Ronan being brought back to life (reset button) by the wraith commander who while creating the most cedible threat the Atlantis and or humans at large, also managed to have the shortest on screen appearence EVER. "Hah, tell me what you know ACK Bullets! They pierce me!"

Also Atlantis invented a wormhole drive on the spot :-/

Oh yeah...Ronan. I keep forgetting that one, probably because I actually cheered for his death. But we've seen the Wraith do this before, so it wasn't out of fucking nowhere like the wormhole drive.

OFFSCREEN for the msot aprt, what is this voyager? Also why don't they have more F302's? that was a measly little group considering their smaller to build than 304s

Eh, they probably only fired a single shot and waited to be fired back upon anyway. Plus they didn't have any main characters, they're not important.

especially when they have the ATA gene therapy

Yes, but as this episode said, some people are still better at the chair than others, aka the ranking system they have.

listen this wasn't an ordinary hive ship, it was RED. You have to really think before firing on something like that.

[FedRebel]

The fact that NO ONE was manning the damn thing. We brought Sheppard in to do the job, and instead he wants to go play cowboy with the Hive around the moon. There are no back-up people to man it (like perhaps O'Neill) and John basically does whatever the fuck he wants, ignoring the orders he had. Both Carter and Sheppard should be drummed out of the service for such blatant incompetence.

Note that this was probably the most noticeably annoying part of the entire episode for me. Everything else was moderate to minor, but I just couldn’t understand their retarded thinking on this one.

Your overreacting here, the real USAF takes months to discipline personnel responsible for screwing up with nukes; missileer keeping launch console components as souvenirs, missile crew sleeping on the job, etc. And that's just a couple from the Air Force Space Command, which the SGC is attached to in the Gateverse.

Given that in the Gateverse the SGC has been compromised numerous times and no one was effectively disciplined, matched with the very real incompetence of the real USAF and certain MAJCOM's under it's control, Carter and Sheppard not receiving disciplinary action for their decisions is not only definite "in-universe" but quite plausible in reality as well.

[Themightytom]

Carter and Sheppard not receiving disciplinary action for their decisions is not only definite "in-universe" but quite plausible in reality as well.

I think it was more about the lack of preparedness than the disciplinary action that should have followed.

Oh yeah...Ronan. I keep forgetting that one, probably because I actually cheered for his death. But we've seen the Wraith do this before, so it wasn't out of fucking nowhere like the wormhole drive.

Ronan seemed like a convenient reset, and the wormhole drive a DEM. I wouldn't ahve minded if Ronan went down I thought he was an obvious attempt to man up the show.

Plus they didn't have any main characters, they're not important.

What??? No main characters??? Why the Sun Tzu has been around for....
wait a minute...

Yes, but as this episode said, some people are still better at the chair than others, aka the ranking system they have

You'd think beckett would ahve done better on Earth though given its just firing a weapon as opposed to firing the weapon after flying accross two galaxies.
By the way this puts to bed a previous debate that the ancients didn't ahve intergalactic hyperdrive that was timely, but it now raises the question, WHY ABANDON THE CITY????

[CaptJodan]

You'd think beckett would ahve done better on Earth though given its just firing a weapon as opposed to firing the weapon after flying accross two galaxies.

To be fair, you put your best where it is liable to count the most. They weren't even sure Atlantis would make it in time, but perhaps the chair could hold them off until they got there. Given that this is your homeworld, you don't go in half-assed. You should be going all in. So having Shepherd, their best next to perhaps O'Neill (you know, the guy that actually has experience firing the thing) going to Earth to use the big guns there makes sense.

Beckett really is the most unlikely of people to take the city into a battle situation, but you go with what you have (left).

Carter and Sheppard not receiving disciplinary action for their decisions is not only definite "in-universe" but quite plausible in reality as well.

I think it was more about the lack of preparedness than the disciplinary action that should have followed.

Yes, that is the main thrust of my argument, not necessarily that they be disciplined on the spot.

[Alyeska]

This episode was rife with DEM. I was ok with the ZPMs. I can see how a ZPM can help the Wraith. They wanked that ship more then a little, but I can live with that.

The portrayal of the Daedalus was less then ideal. The destruction of the chair was complete bull, a simple plot device. They should have had someone at the chair at all times. They could have wiped out the Dart swarm with ease. The wormhole drive for Atlantis was absolute crap. Come on man. If you want to make things dramatic, have Atlantis break down in Alpha Centauri or something. That way when they get back into hyperspace, they can get home.

The battle between Atlantis and the super ship was interesting. It proves that Atlantis really isn't a warship at all. Even still, where were the drone swarms? I guess Becket can't handle them. Atlantis should have absolutely swarmed that hive with drones. I dare say that the Orion would have done better. She launched an impressive swarm.

I did like the mention of the Chinese ship. I think that with information Sheppard brought back they changed the build schedule. I also like the change on the Phoenix to the General Hammond. Its a nice nod to Don S Davis since they missed out in Continuum.

[Chris OFarrell]

Copy and Paste what I wrote on SB.

The whole episode was plot device following plot device following plot device following plot device.

It was poorly written and paced, it just felt horribly RUSHED like the writers all got together and said 'Okay, we have 24 hours to write the LAST EPISODE OF THE SERIES, lets do it!'

And the annoying thing is that it COULD have been excused in part if they actually did some forshadowing.

For example. You could have shown the Uber-Hive earlier, perhaps even a "Battle-Hive' leftover from the Ancient/Wraith war, one which Todd gleefully upgrades with Asgard technology he stole from Daedalus when he hijacked her, powering it with the ZPM's from the Asurans -which he SHOULD have been shown having right after the Asuran arc ended with the other three rather then just pulling them out of thin air right now- and planning to use it to attack and destroy the enemy hives.

Instead we get some wanked out Wraith Battleship literally from NOWHERE that could probably make mincemeat out of an Ori Fleet!!! Its just poor writing to create a threatening enemy...which is basically sums up the Wraith in a nutshell

The wormhole drive....

Thats about all we need to say about that.

Earth being completly undefended to create dramatic tension, making everyone on Earth look like complete and utter morons so far removed from the ruthless competence in the early days of SG1 that it makes me want to cry...

The entire battle all over Earth ONCE AGAIN going blissfully unnoticed by everyone...including a bloody Ancient cityship splashing down and a massive firefight over Area-51...I mean, are the writers just THAT cowardly they can't take the step to say 'okay, lets do disclosure!' That alone might have made some other things worthwhile...

The lack of the Jaffa or anyone else coming to help.

Ronan dying...well, there's always a silver lining.

Moving the drone platform to Area-51...yeah I'm sure the other IOA nations just love the most powerful weapons system on the planet being under the command of the US...and of course it dies because there is absolutely NO-ONE who is allowed to use an Ancient chair other then Sheppard, O'Neil or Becket as we all know...

2/5

Even worse then 'unending' which at least had some touching character moments, all the moments in this episode just came off forced.

Well you can bump it to 3/5 for Becket being so awesome as usuel.

[JediToren]

Spoiler

This was good and bad at the same time. Things seemed like they were getting pretty exciting, especially when Atlantis was taking off to return home in five million years for what should have been a grand battle royale. The 304's being taken out off-screen was lame. No Jaffa to help, no Ori ships to back them up. Odyssey is too busy to defend Earth. General Landry is in Washington and is too busy to take command.

The I.O.A. allowing the most powerful weapon on Earth to be placed at a U.S. Military base is a huge steaming pile of bullshit. Remember in SG-1 season eight when they found the damn thing and all they could do was fight over it?

it was cool to see Major Davis back on the show again, although he seriously needs to get promoted. Both he and Carter seemed pretty dumb, though. I mean Shepherd just comes home and tells everyone how its done.

The wormhole drive is so damn lame. Not only was it a super huge DEM, but we don't even get to see it used. They just show up.

This would have been good if they had built up to it a bit in the preceding episodes, or made this episode a cliff hanger that leads into the the movie.

And keeping the Stargate program a secret is just stupid at this point. They were going to reveal it in SG-1's Lost City but it just keeps going on and on.

Oh well, at least we didn't have to suffer through more time travel crap.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm pretty sure if that if something like a ZPM exploded in earth orbit, it would take out a couple hundred satellites that people would miss.

[NecronLord]

People. If you're in this thread, you should damn well have seen the finale. There is no need for spoiler tags.

[NecronLord]

Even still, where were the drone swarms? I guess Becket can't handle them.

I really don't think the swarm is meant to be actually that superior to a controlled volley any more; we certainly don't see the Asurans doing it. In the battles we've seen - both the last episode, the destruction of the Orion, and the battle against Anubis, the swarms were immensely wasteful of ammunition, for dubious benefits (except the Orion, you may as well fire off all your ammunition when you're going to die) against controlled bursts. It looks a hell of a lot cooler, but I'm not sure what it actually achieves, compared to firing drones at a more reasonable rate - it certainly wouldn't have hurt here (though those drones are in short supply), but it might not have accomplished much either.

[PREDATOR490]

Watched it and hated it.

Reasons why have pretty much been covered by everyone else so far but all the wanky shit I can at least pass off. The COMPLETE retarded progression of the plot was borderline Voyager crap.

The Wraith dont have ANY security in their landing bays, even when Shepard fucking ATTACKS the doors then sits there for ages doing fuck all ?
What the fuck ?
This is the same ship that had 'SUPER SENSORS' capable of detecting cloaked Jumpers but cannot detect an F302.

Incidentally, I like how they did the cop out of 'Only the ZPM powered Hive could detect the transmission from the alternate reality'
On the one hand, it absolves the problem of hundereds of realities get raped by the Wraith who get those transmissions but really, this just seems retarded. The Wraith in the last episode made a device that will only be able to communicate with a single ZPM powered hive which was destroyed in his reality... what ?
Ok, maybe it wasnt fully powered, so that should mean races in the Milky Way will get that transmission in alternate realties or the Asurans in the Pegasus galaxy.

In relation to this Hive and the transmission:
The Wraith just decide to sit in orbit of the moon ?
They somehow got information on the drone chair and were waiting to take it out - Ok, I can buy that. Wait, they got this information from an alternate reality so they have no solid evidence the chair was there. Additionally, no drones got fired at the Darts so if your a Wraith, would you REALLY think the chair was there ?
Afterall, you just got a transmission from an unknown universe saying the chair was there and had been used to defeat an attack so why wouldnt the chair fire drones to defend itself ?
Ah right, the Wraith must have gotten the information so they know the chair is there but unmanned, so why the fuck didnt they just enter Earth orbit and carpet bomb Area 51 with their super guns ?

Given how much firepower this Hive could apparantly take, I really do not see why they wouldnt just jump straight over Earth and carpet bomb Area 51 since they were told it was there. Even if the thing wasnt fully upgraded, a normal hive should have been able to do the job and it is highly unlikely Earth will be able to respond with a flood of drones capable of destroying the hive.
The only explanation is the Wraith being cautious - which is really hard to swallow when you have them sitting with no guards in the hanger bay or pathetic security around their gate. Cautious Wraith seems even more retarded considering they followed a transmission sent from another universe on the spot yet apparantly they didnt trust the information enough to hedge their bets on the location of the drone chair.

Overall, it is just one massive problem that screams writers fiat. I can stand writers fiat but THIS particular fiat is directly linking to the exposure of the Stargate program which this episode stretches beyond belief of not happening. It is the last fucking episode and you make up this massive threat to Earth with epic fights in orbit and city ships streaking through the atmosphere and crashing into the water... yet still try to maintain the status quo or Earth going unawares.

GTFO

On a sidenote, what the fuck was the shit about Todd in the other episode then ?
This was a different Shep yet Todd spoke to him directly when they shouldnt have met. So how does Todd know someone he hasnt met ?
These two episodes really do not mesh for me.
If this is an alternate universe with different events then Todd will have lead a different life, he wont have met a Shep that wasnt a member of SGA hence there is 0% chance he should know Shep. Are Wraith able to see the future now or be able to see alternate realties ?
In which case, Earth and every else is completely fucked in EVERY universe with a crazy Wraith like Todd in it.

At the very least we have a Wraith Hive ship in this realty that had Todd aboard, and was ZPM powered. Where did this ZPM come from ?
The Asurans ?
Since Shep isnt around to ask Todd for help then the Wraith arent likely to help Atlantis and even if they do, the probability of it being Todd strains plausibility. If they got it from another source then that only serves to underline how fucked other universes will be.
If one reality has a Wraith hive ship find a ZPM on its own then how many others will have the same and thus detect the transmission like this one did ?
More importantly, where did THAT hive ship get the location of Earth ?
Yet another universe Wraith sent the transmission for that Hive ship which then had a Wraith send a transmission to THIS one ?
It has the makings of almost being a time travel paradox TBH.

[Rommie2006]

WTF...! Do the writers even remember the episodes written before this? Do they even think when they are writing out the series finale? I guess not!

1) What happened to the planetary phase cloak? Ya sure it was another reality, but they should have adapted it by now.

2) Oh yeah, big scary hive ships now grow impenetrable armor that even the Asgard beam-of-death cannot penetrate. WTF? So the Wraith suddenly outclass the Ori overnight?

3) Send fucking jumpers to Earth via Stargate. Atlantis must have at least a dozen jumpers. Why da fuck are they sitting in cold storage?

4) Oh yeah, we've dialed onto the Hive Ship. Let's send a team over to sabotage some stuff. Couldn't they have just sent NUKES over?

Retarded writers... seriously how do this people get their job?

[NecronLord]

1. No massive drone swarm. NecronLord, how does your “that’s the sign of inexperience when it swarms massively” fit in to Beckett’s, certainly no expert,

Sheppard, who also uses conservative numbers of drones (see below) is pretty much the closest thing they've got to an expert. And given that Beckett's CIA is pretty damn high, I'd not be surprised if he does qualify as an expert. At least by modern standards

showing of force, even before they were under assault from the Hive? I’d actually argue the reverse, that the swarm is the sign of a skilled user able to control more drones at once than someone with less skill, given that O’Neill had the ancient knowledge and experience imbedded in his mind. This episode, for me, suggests that either Atlantis is just incapable of putting out a swarm as dense as a simple outpost, or if we take your theory and reverse it, a massive swarm requires a bit more ancient knowledge and know how. (and please don’t cite the Asurans again. We saw how inconsistent they are. They didn’t bother to use a single drone in “Be All My Sins Remembered”. Try to compare like-with-like here)

I thought this claim only came up on Spacebattles?

Observe 2:30 to 3 minutes. Not only do the Asurans counter-fire against Sheppard, but we see another Asuran ship open fire with a dozen or so drones in a single burst against a hive in the background.

The out-of-universe reason they don't have drones everywhere is because it's easier in CGI to clone models than it is to put more different models. That's why the battle didn't include Wraith or Asuran cruisers; adding an extra model would slow down the rendering. As soon as the plot justified drones, the same shot included drones in the background, because that wouldn't increase the render time. Bolts of light are cheaper to render than drones; they don't have to change course, or have any kind of model composited in with the light effect.

In universe, one can only assume, from the various occasions of people who actually have ancient knowledge (say, the Asurans firing a mere five or so at the jumper, in Return pt 2) that the Asurans at least, think it's worth conserving them. And this makes some sense; they're not energy weapons, they are ammunition, that can be depleted. In all the examples of a giant drone swarm we've seen, they're complete overkill. We now (pretty much) know that such a high number was not needed to deal with Anubis. The same with the battles in No Man's Land and Vegas; they're complete overkill, and wastes of ammunition. You do not need to use that many drones to destroy a hive ship. Now the thing is, as you suggest, Beckett should have fired more of them at the hive in this episode; however, given that in 'swarm mode' they all tend to impact the same areas, and then explode, I'm not entirely sure if it offers real tangible benefits compared to the expense of firing more.

And of course, in this scene, Atlantis was short of power anyway, and as we know, controlling drones in flight is something that requires power (The Tower) that could be better used... keeping the shield going.

Nonetheless, at least two Asuran ships used drones in that battle. Not to mention we see them use drones on other occasions, too, albeit not often against targets that can fight back.

4. “We can’t sustain another hit.” Good thing they stopped that constant barrage of fire they’d been doing the entire time then. This is a brain bug that so many other series’ latch on to, so it’s not new or completely unexpected, but it is annoying.

Actually, that made sense to me. The Wraith would want to take them alive, to eat them, and interrogate them, and steal their ship. Presumably the Wraith captain ordered his guns to fire according to some estimate of how much the Daedalus would be able to take.

5. We’ve seen what 304’s can do, how fast they can fire Asgard beams at a target they really, really want to kill. For some reason I can’t understand, Cadwell fired once, and didn’t continue the attack. They hadn’t just come out of hyperspace, so they wouldn’t have had power problems. We’ve seen them ambush Asuran vessels (and fight over their homeworld in a truly pitched battle) and they didn’t hold back, but this time they did, even knowing how real the threat was. The humans really gave the Wraith every opportunity to win throughout this episode.

Actually, if you watch the battle of Asuras, they tend to fire one beam, stop for a second, and then fire another. On occasion they fire two or three, but like Star Wars, I assume the total output can be routed through one beam.

Not that it wouldn't have been better for the Daedalus to put up more of a fight; but firing only one shot and then getting plinked worked for me.

6. How long did Atlantis doodle about up in the atmosphere before finally coming down and landing? The reason I ask is because, unless I’m mistaken, San Francisco is something of a busy port, and the amount of naval traffic (tankers, pleasure boats, warships, you name it), not to mention traffic in and around the land that might be tourist heavy, could not have been moved if they were in a hurry to get down. Even cloaked, people would no doubt notice the large wave, or the steam/spray/whatever coming from the water if they had not completely evacuated the area, not to mention the noise. I got the sense that they were on a trajectory towards a landing they had to make fairly soon, and this strained SOD to the breaking point to suggest that they got all the traffic out of visual range of a city landing (cloaked).

Never mind that: They fought a large dogfight with UFOs in broad daylight over Area 51, which was then destroyed by UFO kamikaze. I'm pretty sure that must have been videotaped and on the internet in record time.

[CaptJodan]

Sheppard, who also uses conservative numbers of drones (see below) is pretty much the closest thing they've got to an expert. And given that Beckett's CIA is pretty damn high, I'd not be surprised if he does qualify as an expert. At least by modern standards

I'm going to concede on the Asuran front, both because I don't think it applies when you can better compare apples to apples with Atlantis vs. the Outpost, and because I can't really tell whether those are your yellow bolts, or drones the Asurans are firing back from a Youtube video.

But I won't concede that a massive drone swarm wouldn't have been better in this case. You go all in, ammunition supply or not. You fire everything you have at them, and if that isn't enough, you ram the city down their throats. Furthermore, you make a great point that these drones weren't even hitting the same spot, but hitting around the hull in random places. You're not going to punch through that way, you need to hit the same spot until the hull is compromised and you get into the squishy, non-armored interior.

And of course, in this scene, Atlantis was short of power anyway, and as we know, controlling drones in flight is something that requires power (The Tower) that could be better used... keeping the shield going.

Yes, I've never understood how an Ancient warship needs no ZPM to fire its mass of drones and have its shields up (if it was not broken, Orion could do either or only because it wasn't fully repaired yet), but Atlantis can't fire even a single drone without one.

And I figured you would bring up the absence of power, which is why I referenced their opening volly, when the shield was NOT being strained (a tactic we've seen before with the Orion, in fact).

Actually, that made sense to me. The Wraith would want to take them alive, to eat them, and interrogate them, and steal their ship. Presumably the Wraith captain ordered his guns to fire according to some estimate of how much the Daedalus would be able to take.

It was more implied in the episode that the Daedalus was spared because of the transmission, not because of any desire to feed. And the city represents a greater danger to the Wraith than nearly anything else, you don't just let it sit there working to come up with a plan to kill you. I thought you wanted the Wraith to be smart.

Actually, if you watch the battle of Asuras, they tend to fire one beam, stop for a second, and then fire another. On occasion they fire two or three, but like Star Wars, I assume the total output can be routed through one beam.

Actually, if I watch the Battle of Asuras, I can see that almost the moment one beam stops, another is on the way. If I back it up a bit to near the beginning of the episode, I can see two 304's firing on a single Asuran ship with two beams going at once in some cases. Neither of which happened here. They fired, then they sat and had a fireside chat for a while the Wraith readied themselves to pummel them over the head.

Not that it wouldn't have been better for the Daedalus to put up more of a fight; but firing only one shot and then getting plinked worked for me.

Because we've got you on tape as rooting for the Wraith. Face it, a lot of the reason the Wraith got as far as they did in this episode was because the humans suddenly lost 50IQ points.

Never mind that: They fought a large dogfight with UFOs in broad daylight over Area 51, which was then destroyed by UFO kamikaze. I'm pretty sure that must have been videotaped and on the internet in record time.

Now it's my turn. I was less bothered by this than San Fran, but that might just be because of my ignorance of how things are in Area 51. I assumed that, since A51 is a fairly large area that is closed to the public, that a battle taking place over it would be "relatively" well hidden. In other words, about as hidden as, say, giant fireballs of doom coming from the sky and hitting power stations and communication towers that are later claimed to be a meteor strike, ala Lost City part 2.

As an aside, you really are out to get me. Look at all those people up there who made stranger claims than I. Yet here you are. Nemesis.

What happened to the planetary phase cloak? Ya sure it was another reality, but they should have adapted it by now.

I've brought this up at least twice. Once when the Ori were going to attack Earth in the SG-1 movie, and now here. I like to think that it was being used aboard the Odyssey on it's super secret mission, as that's the only explanation that I can think of as to why it wasn't used, considered, or talked about in any way.

2) Oh yeah, big scary hive ships now grow impenetrable armor that even the Asgard beam-of-death cannot penetrate. WTF? So the Wraith suddenly outclass the Ori overnight?

Good question. The general feel does seem to imply that a single ZPM equipped Hive can not only outclass the Ori, but outclass a (very poor) ship powered by 3 ZPMs.

4) Oh yeah, we've dialed onto the Hive Ship. Let's send a team over to sabotage some stuff. Couldn't they have just sent NUKES over?

I'm guessing that Atlantis never had nukes aboard. The one time I remember them using nukes from the city itself was when the Genni gave it to them. WHY they don't have a few stashed away for emergencies, I don't know, perhaps it's generally thought that if they would need to use them, they'd be used in space over the city and that's a dicey proposition, especially without a proper delivery system (though we do know Jumpers work). I've always thought Atlantis needed some up-gunning, especially after we saw it was possible after "The Siege", but Earth must be putting most of their funds behind fighter and battlecruiser construction.

[Crazedwraith]

Ok, Why the fuck did they let Sheppard lead the 302 squadron against the Wraith Darts? I understand it when they want to attack the hive ship but an intercept mission? Get him in the chair to I don't know... shoot down those attacking targets.

I'd love it if they said it was the Snake Skinners Squadron with Mitchell back in Command. Or O'Neill or someone should have been that chair to shoot down any that got through. They could have asked Mitchell or RDA to phone in a couple lines of dialogue that could have been done over the radio. No need to even see the actors.

Also: Why send a commando team when you can send a nuke?

This episode is totally contrived.

"We can't take another hit" Twice in one episode is once to many.

If that Hive has a ZPM on board shouldn't our solar system no longer be there?

[NecronLord]

Yes, I've never understood how an Ancient warship needs no ZPM to fire its mass of drones and have its shields up (if it was not broken, Orion could do either or only because it wasn't fully repaired yet), but Atlantis can't fire even a single drone without one.

And I figured you would bring up the absence of power, which is why I referenced their opening volly, when the shield was NOT being strained (a tactic we've seen before with the Orion, in fact).

Well, the warships have a bigass power-plant (I assume) rather than just a ZPM. the city doesn't seem to have any normal reactors, nor do the outposts (though the latter had some tiny lights on with an exhausted ZPM, so there's some batteries or something). And you can launch some drones with a naquadah reactor, too.

It was more implied in the episode that the Daedalus was spared because of the transmission, not because of any desire to feed. And the city represents a greater danger to the Wraith than nearly anything else, you don't just let it sit there working to come up with a plan to kill you. I thought you wanted the Wraith to be smart.

In all fairness, how do we know the city was a serious threat to them? It didn't do so well during the battle.

Because we've got you on tape as rooting for the Wraith. Face it, a lot of the reason the Wraith got as far as they did in this episode was because the humans suddenly lost 50IQ points.

How's that? The Wraith were stupid enough to let the bastards sit inside their ship with nuclear weapons. If it weren't for that, they'd have won, no? They punked one 303, defeated two more, dealt with the chair weapon (if it'd been online, they were out of its range anyway, and could, one assumes, once it revealed its location, have gone outsystem and hucked asteroids at it until it died; they've done that before when faced with static defence) and were winning the fight against Atlantis, as far as I could tell.

Short of the Oddessy, or Earth's allies coming to help, I can't see why they'd not have won if they didn't get ID4-nuked.

Never mind that: They fought a large dogfight with UFOs in broad daylight over Area 51, which was then destroyed by UFO kamikaze. I'm pretty sure that must have been videotaped and on the internet in record time.

Now it's my turn. I was less bothered by this than San Fran, but that might just be because of my ignorance of how things are in Area 51. I assumed that, since A51 is a fairly large area that is closed to the public, that a battle taking place over it would be "relatively" well hidden. In other words, about as hidden as, say, giant fireballs of doom coming from the sky and hitting power stations and communication towers that are later claimed to be a meteor strike, ala Lost City part 2.

It's quite a large compound, but it's also got an entire town next to it, catering to the people who go out there to watch for UFOs, who hang out by the exclusion zone day and night (not the same ones, mind you) hoping for this kind of thing.

Unless the stargate version's exclusion zone has been massively extended, (which isn't terribly subtle) people would have seen the darts plough into it.

As an aside, you really are out to get me. Look at all those people up there who made stranger claims than I. Yet here you are. Nemesis.

You're the one that put 'Necronlord' in his post!

4) Oh yeah, we've dialed onto the Hive Ship. Let's send a team over to sabotage some stuff. Couldn't they have just sent NUKES over?

I'm guessing that Atlantis never had nukes aboard. The one time I remember them using nukes from the city itself was when the Genni gave it to them. WHY they don't have a few stashed away for emergencies, I don't know, perhaps it's generally thought that if they would need to use them, they'd be used in space over the city and that's a dicey proposition, especially without a proper delivery system (though we do know Jumpers work). I've always thought Atlantis needed some up-gunning, especially after we saw it was possible after "The Siege", but Earth must be putting most of their funds behind fighter and battlecruiser construction.

Personally, I wanted, instead of being puzzled, the wraith squaddies to calmly kick the grenades back through the event horizon (it's a natural grenade trap!) and into oblivion. Stargate's used the 'aliens don't know what grenades are' trick far too many times.

[NecronLord]

Ok, Why the fuck did they let Sheppard lead the 302 squadron against the Wraith Darts? I understand it when they want to attack the hive ship but an intercept mission? Get him in the chair to I don't know... shoot down those attacking targets.

That would've been sensible.

I'd love it if they said it was the Snake Skinners Squadron with Mitchell back in Command. Or O'Neill or someone should have been that chair to shoot down any that got through. They could have asked Mitchell or RDA to phone in a couple lines of dialogue that could have been done over the radio. No need to even see the actors.

Indeed. I would far rather someone in the chair actually begun dismembering those darts, and then the nefarious wraith to have just cheated, and had the darts re-materailise a whole slew of nuclear-equivalent weapons in the last second of their countdown above the base. Much more interesting Kamikaze. Then as the Hive closes in, Sheppard comes up with his crazy nuke plan, launching from McMurdo or somewhere.

Also: Why send a commando team when you can send a nuke?

Why indeed. They didn't have a nuke. They best they have is naquadah reactors, and they're not very reliable as nukes.

Of course, why the wraith wouldn't copy the idea of 'iris' in this case is beyond me.

If that Hive has a ZPM on board shouldn't our solar system no longer be there?

Nah. They're not destroyed just because the ship with them on is. If they were, then the Asuran City Ship's ZPMs would have totalled the entire Lantea system way back when. There's a few more examples too. But yeah. There's a ZPM floating around Earth now.

[PREDATOR490]

How big is at Atlantis ?

It might be a FX error but when Atlantis literally swoops infront of the Hive it looked massive and since Hives are meant to be 11km ?
How can something that big fly through the sky and crash into the water completely unnoticed ?

Even if by some really stupid explanation the city was able to land so lightly not to cause a visible tidal wave. The combined noise, attention the quarantine brings and days events should lead to a pretty large amount of problems. The explosion of the Wraith hive alone would make me question wether people on the ground would be able to see that.

As for the gate issue. It goes without saying the Wraith here are completely retarded not to put a better security force on the gate. Nevermind the cliche.. 'ooh look little balls came through the gate. Lets just stare at it' *boom* 'well, fuck. Sorry guys, didnt see that coming'
I am not buying the idea of Atlantis being unable to do more than send a commando team in. They have C4, they have Naq reactors which can be overloaded to create a pretty big bang. Enough to make them consider it a viable self-destruct system capable of destroying Atlantis and they would be just stupid to not carry spares.
Additionally, they are literally walking through a massive bomb arent they ?

The Stargate has often been mentioned to be lethal when it explodes so setting it off not only frees up Earth's Stargate, it will cause a massive bang in the Hive ship. Bottom line however is that commando squad served only to let Ronan and Tayla have any screen time while getting Shep out of his usual suicide martyr routine.

[Themightytom]

The Wraith dont have ANY security in their landing bays, even when Shepard fucking ATTACKS the doors then sits there for ages doing fuck all ?
What the fuck ?
This is the same ship that had 'SUPER SENSORS' capable of detecting cloaked Jumpers but cannot detect an F302.

Well regarding the F302, "Super sensors" doesn't mean "Omniscient". Shepherd flipped off all his power, indicating that the SGC had the impression the sensors were detecting energy sources. now when he blew up the door, any explanation given would be far fetched, you really should know when someone blows a hole in your space ship, on the other hand they might have noticed, but decided the active stargate, and then the appearence of a cityship were more important.

They could have had a little manpower shortage going on, because they loaded huge numbers of wraiths into every dart they could find in preparation for culling. Earth is a big planet, with established ground defenses all over the place, best way to protect your food source while pacifying it is to send in zounds of troops. use the darts to enact local scale bombardment, and then start beaming troops in. The fact that the wraith commander himself (As evidenced PURELY by his comment about "My ship" so kind of a thin argument I admit) was on hand to personally resurrect Ronan and atempt to interrogate him with some prodding and meaningful glances, lends credibility to the theory that they didn't have a lot of wraith available.

But SPEAKING of darts, where the F did the other twenty or so darts Shepherd's pilots were fighting go?

Ah right, the Wraith must have gotten the information so they know the chair is there but unmanned, so why the fuck didnt they just enter Earth orbit and carpet bomb Area 51 with their super guns ?

yeah i really wouldn't be on the kamikaze run for teh chair that may or may not be present but is definitely not firing. it would make more sense to just open up on the buildings, especailly as they had already smoked the 302s. of course that would have been an awesome time for area 51 to drag out a salvaged Tollan ion cannon or something and be like "Surprise biches!"

They didn't just jump right in because they were trying to finish integrating their enhanced systems, ie: growing the new skin, setting up door alartms, installing the iris on the stargate...

This was a different Shep yet Todd spoke to him directly when they shouldnt have met. So how does Todd know someone he hasnt met ?

yeah its not like Todd's a mind reader or anything! Wait he is? Well, did they at least mention i in he show? Oh they inferred it right ater? "they can get in your head?' oh damn.

At the very least we have a Wraith Hive ship in this realty that had Todd aboard, and was ZPM powered. Where did this ZPM come from ?

Obviously not an enhanced hiveship, it wasn't RED. Jeez pay attention. They probably just managed to steal an advanced hyperdrive design like they tried to do in season two, only in the alternate universe they suceeeded. They don't appear to have shared this with the other wraith, as only one hive showed up but eh they aren't team players.

If one reality has a Wraith hive ship find a ZPM on its own then how many others will have the same and thus detect the transmission like this one did ?
More importantly, where did THAT hive ship get the location of Earth ?
Yet another universe Wraith sent the transmission for that Hive ship which then had a Wraith send a transmission to THIS one ?
It has the makings of almost being a time travel paradox TBH.

Pretty sure it would be an infinite number of realities, since, once one event happened there would be opportunity for split of after split of after split off. "That hive ship" could ahve gotten the location of Earth pretty easily the question is more how did they get TO Earth, but there have been several attempts by the wraith in the past to obtain intergalactic hyperdrive.
it'd be like a time paradox involving neither a paradox, nor time...

[Crazedwraith]

Why indeed. They didn't have a nuke. They best they have is naquadah reactors, and they're not very reliable as nukes.

Maybe they don't. Which is damn stupid of them. Being a military outpost and all. Plus they had the Deadelus so they could have got some nukes from there. (Well, they dialled in after they'd left her behind but I see no reason they shouldn't have handed over some nukes before they left on a combat mission.)

Hell have the jumpers fire lots of drones through the gate.

Of course, why the wraith wouldn't copy the idea of 'iris' in this case is beyond me.

Indeed.

Edit: On an unrelated note: Other than the name, is there any evidence the Sun Tzu was a chinese operated vessel? It seems strange that they wouldn't mention that more explicitly. Considering the Chinese government would be mighty pissed that their ship got all blown up on an american mission.

[NecronLord]

How big is at Atlantis ?

Originally it was between two and three miles, but they seem to have increased its scale a little to be more city like in recent episodes. Nonetheless, in the shot you're talking about, IIRC, we're only seeing part of the hive, remember, not all of it.

Certainly the overhead shot looks about right (though we know Atlantis is a little lower in its orbit, and thus actually somewhat bigger) with the hive substantially bigger.

Of course, this hive may be bigger than the norm, too.

Additionally, they are literally walking through a massive bomb arent they ?

The stargate? Special equipment is needed to cause a destination gate to explode (the thing Anubis used). Short of trying to get a gate buster from somewhere...