SGA 5x20 "Enemy at the Gate" Talkback (Series Finale)

[CaptJodan]

Well, the warships have a bigass power-plant (I assume) rather than just a ZPM. the city doesn't seem to have any normal reactors, nor do the outposts (though the latter had some tiny lights on with an exhausted ZPM, so there's some batteries or something). And you can launch some drones with a naquadah reactor, too.

Just to refresh my memory, what episode did Atlantis use a naquada reactor to fire drones? I'm not disputing you, per say, but I don't remember it.

In all fairness, how do we know the city was a serious threat to them? It didn't do so well during the battle.

We can debate whether or not the city itself was a threat for a while. We never did hear why Atlantis stopped firing in the same scene, whether they had run out of drones or were trying to compensate for their decaying orbit by that point. (I don't think it was the shields. It's pretty clear the shield generators were tapped out, not the power itself "the city is pretty banged up, even with 3 ZPMs we're not leaving anytime soon" implying that they had some juice left). They may have just run out of drones. Regardless, given the number of times Atlantis has foiled their plans through their determination and some new miracle they think up, I think the Wraith should be very afraid of what, in desperation, they might decide to do.

How's that? The Wraith were stupid enough to let the bastards sit inside their ship with nuclear weapons. If it weren't for that, they'd have won, no?

The team met very limited resistance, true, but I attribute that to the fact that, when they started this growing process, they probably had a standard Hive crew compliment, and since the ship grew to several times the size of Atlantis, itself a city, they just didn't have the bodies to go around to stop a determined boarding party.

They punked one 303

304, and which didn't come out swinging.

defeated two more,

Off screen. I am not going to assume, as you would, that they did the absolute best they could either, given their track record.

dealt with the chair weapon (if it'd been online, they were out of its range anyway,

What does this even mean? Yes, it was out of range of the moon, but when it finally showed up, it wouldn't be.

and could, one assumes, once it revealed its location, have gone outsystem and hucked asteroids at it until it died; they've done that before when faced with static defence)

These Wraith were in a fucking hurry. It's obvious given the fact that they didn't even stick around long enough to harvest or destroy the Daedalus. They also didn't finish off the Apollo and Sun Tzu. They didn't wait until their ship was fully upgraded with the ZPM before setting off and sitting on Earth's doorstep. Lobbing asteroids at Earth is going to take time, which gives Earth the time to bolster a greater defense. Given the well known history of these annoyingly primitive insects for getting out of jams if you give them enough time to think up something, I doubt they would have wasted time with that tactic.

Short of the Oddessy, or Earth's allies coming to help, I can't see why they'd not have won if they didn't get ID4-nuked.

Oh, I'm sure nukes would have been involved at some point. But the humans did not put up as spirited a defense as they could have, and allowed a major defense system to fall with nearly no opposition.

It's quite a large compound, but it's also got an entire town next to it, catering to the people who go out there to watch for UFOs, who hang out by the exclusion zone day and night (not the same ones, mind you) hoping for this kind of thing.

Unless the stargate version's exclusion zone has been massively extended, (which isn't terribly subtle) people would have seen the darts plough into it.

I can see the possibility of the exclusion zone being larger, given the increased danger in the fact that this facility has the bulk of Earth's alien technology stored in it. I didn't actually *see* a town anywhere around where they were flying, and we did get several good panoramic views of the area so. But it's just a possibility, not a fact.

You're the one that put 'Necronlord' in his post!

It was your theory! Give credit where it is due, yes? It wasn't meant for the entire post.

Personally, I wanted, instead of being puzzled, the wraith squaddies to calmly kick the grenades back through the event horizon (it's a natural grenade trap!) and into oblivion. Stargate's used the 'aliens don't know what grenades are' trick far too many times.

Would that work? The gate usually has a desire to spit things out of the event horizon on the other side. We have Kawalski getting his head taken off when the gate was shut down, but he was being pushed forcibly into the gate. Was there ever an instance of something getting thrown into the gate and not being spat back out? It's not a 2 way wormhole, after all. It would have been better had they ran and tried to take cover, at least showing they know what grenades are.

[NecronLord]

Just to refresh my memory, what episode did Atlantis use a naquada reactor to fire drones? I'm not disputing you, per say, but I don't remember it.

Siege 2. The Colonel arrives, and they plug in 'mark 2' reactors to power the drone system. This is before the Daedalus arrives in Siege 3 with the ZPM.

Regardless, given the number of times Atlantis has foiled their plans through their determination and some new miracle they think up, I think the Wraith should be very afraid of what, in desperation, they might decide to do.

They're really hungry! Presumably they knew that neither set of ships would be up to bothering them for some time - a month, in one case. They could harvest Earth, and then go get the remaining Earth ships one at a time and try and capture them and their valuable technology.

Not that running off on the Daedalus makes sense, either way, it's a stupid contrivance. But those ships were, at that point, no real threat to them.

Off screen. I am not going to assume, as you would, that they did the absolute best they could either, given their track record.

... You're just going to assume total character ineptitude... Fair enough.

What does this even mean? Yes, it was out of range of the moon, but when it finally showed up, it wouldn't be.

The Wraith had the thing's range, clearly, and stayed beyond it (and out of line of sight for good measure). They then sent fighters in to attack it. If the fighters succeeded, well enough. Otherwise, if the drones were used on the fighters, they have the thing's location nailed, and can hit it with out-system asteroids.

These Wraith were in a fucking hurry.

Yeah. And the wraith in Seige 2 managed to fire asteroids across the system in a couple of hours. They're in a hurry, but they're also smart enough to stay out of drone range until the thing is killed.

Given the well known history of these annoyingly primitive insects for getting out of jams if you give them enough time to think up something, I doubt they would have wasted time with that tactic.

I see no feisable alternative tactic for the Wraith to deal with the chair if it had been active.

Oh, I'm sure nukes would have been involved at some point.

I mean 'nuke bolted onto a fighter in the docking bay.'

Would that work?

Yeah. There was an SG1 episode where it was revealed that going backward through a gate is thought to kill you. I believe it was the penal colony one. Where the guys in the prison are so desperate they try it anyway.

The gate usually has a desire to spit things out of the event horizon on the other side. We have Kawalski getting his head taken off when the gate was shut down, but he was being pushed forcibly into the gate.

That was outgoing.

[CaptJodan]

They best they have is naquadah reactors, and they're not very reliable as nukes.

Eh? Since when? Set to overload, they generally blow up. Once you've cleared the gate with the ol "ha, fooled you with grenades, you're too stupid to have an iris" trick, no one was going to actually bother it for the next several minutes, apparently, given how long it took for them to get reinforcements to the gate.

There's a ZPM floating around Earth now.

ZPMs can survive nuclear explosions?

Speaking of nukes, Sheppard had a single (I'm going to assume naquada enhanced) nuke. We know that he never would have penetrated that hull with a single nuke, and I thought his plan to use 302s to do it seemed shaky (2 304s plus fighters with the same basic abilities couldn't take down an Ori shield with their missiles, and this ship seems stronger), but whatever. My question is why there didn't seem to be more debris after the explosion. Given the large amount of armor they had to penetrate, and that there was only one nuke used, would not there be a lot less of a big Hollywood style of explosion. The hull probably wouldn't be intact or anything, and certainly it would have done the job, but I would expect there to be huge chunks left over, if not entire sections, given the miles of armor they put on.

[NecronLord]

Eh? Since when? Set to overload, they generally blow up. Once you've cleared the gate with the ol "ha, fooled you with grenades, you're too stupid to have an iris" trick, no one was going to actually bother it for the next several minutes, apparently, given how long it took for them to get reinforcements to the gate.

That relies on either gating to the ship and dialling out to flee (not possible) or having the means to pre-set a reactor to explode in say, two seconds, before they toss it back into the wormhole and oblivion. I've seen nothing to suggest bomb-converted reactors can be timed that precisely.

ZPMs can survive nuclear explosions?

ZPMs can survive having the city ship they're in explode as they overload it (Progeny) the facility they're in get rammed by a hive ship (Spoils of War) and numerous other things. Either that, or in such circimstances, they're destroyed (and note Woolsey said the latter trio were 'lost') in some non-explosive way, which seems unlikely.

Speaking of nukes, Sheppard had a single (I'm going to assume naquada enhanced) nuke. We know that he never would have penetrated that hull with a single nuke, and I thought his plan to use 302s to do it seemed shaky (2 304s plus fighters with the same basic abilities couldn't take down an Ori shield with their missiles, and this ship seems stronger), but whatever. My question is why there didn't seem to be more debris after the explosion. Given the large amount of armor they had to penetrate, and that there was only one nuke used, would not there be a lot less of a big Hollywood style of explosion. The hull probably wouldn't be intact or anything, and certainly it would have done the job, but I would expect there to be huge chunks left over, if not entire sections, given the miles of armor they put on.

Was that shot really long enough to see debris anyway?

And I assume it's the standard 'internal explosion causes secondaries' affair.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm pretty sure the majority of incoming wormhole deaths we see, are actually killed by the KAWOOSH rather than actually going through the wrong. Certainly the ones in 'Prisoners' were. Their smoking boots were left behind.

[NecronLord]

I've a better example, anyway. Hundred days. I'm pretty sure that's got 'going backward = die' in it.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah that's a good example. The MALP falls back and is destroyed. Although Teal'c Grapple line through the gate, raises questions of its own.

[CaptJodan]

Presumably they knew that neither set of ships would be up to bothering them for some time - a month, in one case. They could harvest Earth, and then go get the remaining Earth ships one at a time and try and capture them and their valuable technology.


Not that running off on the Daedalus makes sense, either way, it's a stupid contrivance. But those ships were, at that point, no real threat to them.

The Wraith don't have infinite knowledge. They don't know how many ships Earth has, they don't know where they all are. They don't know how long it takes for Earth to repair its ships. Given the kind of wacky "they can detect a cloaked jumper but not a powered down fighter" sensors, I'm not sure how much BDA they were able to gather. They are taking a risk by leaving them out of action there.

It all stems back from the fact that you think they wanted to capture Atlantis and eat its crew. If that were the case, they'd have a hard time as long as Atlantis remains in orbit. As long as the shield is up, they can't board, but if they lower it, their food dies. Best just to destroy it and make sure no harm came to them.

You're just going to assume total character ineptitude... Fair enough.

Without further evidence to the contrary, I'm going to fall back on the next best thing, which was Caldwell's actions, and assume theirs were not much different than his.

The Wraith had the thing's range, clearly, and stayed beyond it (and out of line of sight for good measure). They then sent fighters in to attack it. If the fighters succeeded, well enough. Otherwise, if the drones were used on the fighters, they have the thing's location nailed, and can hit it with out-system asteroids.

Why waste the fighters? Why not just lob asteroids at it from the beginning? They were SURE that the chair was there (apparently not grasping the concept of an alternate reality). There was nothing to prove that it was there even after they hit it from what I could tell, they just ASSUMED that they had succeeded. Maybe if a drone or two had been fired from A51, they would have known, but of course that wasn't the case.

They're in a hurry, but they're also smart enough to stay out of drone range until the thing is killed.

Which they merely assumed based on the information they got from the alternate universe.

I see no feisable alternative tactic for the Wraith to deal with the chair if it had been active.

I'd assumed that they'd just barrel in anyway and hope their armor would hold and the level of drones on Earth wasn't too high. Or jump in unannounced and hit it before anyone knows the Hive's in orbit.

[CaptJodan]

That relies on either gating to the ship and dialling out to flee (not possible) or having the means to pre-set a reactor to explode in say, two seconds, before they toss it back into the wormhole and oblivion. I've seen nothing to suggest bomb-converted reactors can be timed that precisely.

Or, given the circumstances, it relies on someone, or a group of someone's going over and setting it and staying with it till it explodes. Or, you park a locked Jumper in there with the bomb in it and while the Wraith try and get inside, it cooks off. It's true that they don't have an exact timer, but they can estimate that it will go in X time. They've probably can give a guesstimate within a minute, if not less.

Why isn't it possible for them to gate out after setting the reactor to overload again?

Was that shot really long enough to see debris anyway?

I know you managed to see the pre-cut version, so I don't know if you saw the newer version later, but it had the characteristic Death Star ring explosion, then leaves enough time to see the fireball with what looked to be no sizable chunks moving away. From what I could tell, I didn't see any.

And I assume it's the standard 'internal explosion causes secondaries' affair.

I remain dubious. Anyway, it's a minor FX thing, designed to wow the audience more than anything else.

[Crazedwraith]

Without further evidence to the contrary, I'm going to fall back on the next best thing, which was Caldwell's actions, and assume theirs were not much different than his.

Except; they knew what happened to Caldwell and would adjust their tactics accordingly. All weapons from the get go.

They really need to use that launch all nukes at once trick again. With both ships; from opposite or wildly different sides.

Why waste the fighters? Why not just lob asteroids at it from the beginning? They were SURE that the chair was there (apparently not grasping the concept of an alternate reality).

Is there any evidence that they knew it was an AU? Rodney has seen that stuff before. Have they? Not to our knowledge.

Still not finishing off any 304s was stupid. I would have assumed that the Apollo and Sun Tzu were forced to withdraw when clearly overmatched. (ie ran away rather than the wraith spared them) but the Sun Tzu's fate would seem to preclude that. (They better salvage and show it at some future point having a 304 live and die entirely off screen would be shitty.)

Edit: tags.

[CaptJodan]

Except; they knew what happened to Caldwell and would adjust their tactics accordingly. All weapons from the get go.

I guess I'm just biased given how many times they've done something stupid. They showed great competence I thought in "Be All My Sins Remembered", with the possible exception of them choosing not to use their missiles with their rail guns and beam weapons, which in the context of the episode really didn't matter, but since then...

I wish we had seen at least part of the battle in order to get an idea, but given the amount packed into the episode as it was, I understand why they didn't have time.

Is there any evidence that they knew it was an AU? Rodney has seen that stuff before. Have they? Not to our knowledge.

No evidence, no. If you're right, then they treated the message from beyond the veil as fact for this universe, again making one wonder why they chose not to use the asteroid tactic first, if it was so feasible.

[NecronLord]

The Wraith don't have infinite knowledge. They don't know how many ships Earth has, they don't know where they all are. They don't know how long it takes for Earth to repair its ships. Given the kind of wacky "they can detect a cloaked jumper but not a powered down fighter" sensors, I'm not sure how much BDA they were able to gather. They are taking a risk by leaving them out of action there.

Nothing whacky about that. There's craptons of sattellites in orbit of Earth. The jumper was active and manouvering, the 302 was sitting there.

It all stems back from the fact that you think they wanted to capture Atlantis and eat its crew. If that were the case, they'd have a hard time as long as Atlantis remains in orbit. As long as the shield is up, they can't board, but if they lower it, their food dies. Best just to destroy it and make sure no harm came to them.

... I was talking about the Daedalus. They seem to have no real desire to keep Atlantis intact in the final battle.

Without further evidence to the contrary, I'm going to fall back on the next best thing, which was Caldwell's actions, and assume theirs were not much different than his.

Why waste the fighters? Why not just lob asteroids at it from the beginning? They were SURE that the chair was there (apparently not grasping the concept of an alternate reality).

Let's be fair to them. If the code authenticates, and they've no knowledge of matter bridges, why assume it was from an alternate reality? If McKay hadn't worked with the dimension-jump technology before, he'd have not got it either. I would assume the Wraith on the ship thought it was another hive (we've seen individual hives go for Earth before) sent the message in the same reality.

There was nothing to prove that it was there even after they hit it from what I could tell, they just ASSUMED that they had succeeded. Maybe if a drone or two had been fired from A51, they would have known, but of course that wasn't the case.

Which they merely assumed based on the information they got from the alternate universe.

Again, they've no reasonable reason to think it's an alt-verse. As far as they knew, that was the site of the drone system, and they'd taken it out. They were probably baffled as to why it didn't fire, though.

Or, given the circumstances, it relies on someone, or a group of someone's going over and setting it and staying with it till it explodes. Or, you park a locked Jumper in there with the bomb in it and while the Wraith try and get inside, it cooks off. It's true that they don't have an exact timer, but they can estimate that it will go in X time. They've probably can give a guesstimate within a minute, if not less.

With the exception of Sheppard, they don't do suicide missions, and his are usually over his superiors' objections.

Why isn't it possible for them to gate out after setting the reactor to overload again?

The gate needs to be re-set to dial out from Earth. Which is a procedure that may take an unknown amount of time. Especially if the wraith have had the sense to disable the dial-out function.

I know you managed to see the pre-cut version, so I don't know if you saw the newer version later, but it had the characteristic Death Star ring explosion, then leaves enough time to see the fireball with what looked to be no sizable chunks moving away. From what I could tell, I didn't see any.

I remain dubious. Anyway, it's a minor FX thing, designed to wow the audience more than anything else.

Indeed. If we keep going down this line, we'll have to try and explain the planar ring of doom.

[NecronLord]

making one wonder why they chose not to use the asteroid tactic first, if it was so feasible.

Err. Time?

For Wraith, hunger is supposedly worse than it is for humans. They clearly have little regard for their pilots' lives (they were presumably ordered to ram the place anyway). For that matter, a jumper can fly at least for a time, under pre-programmed orders. Why bother with the complex stuff when you can at least try to catch the humans with their pants down - "who knows," thinks the wraith commander, "they might have used up all their ammunition" - and send a few darts down to ram the place. If the darts get shot down, well, they can always spawn more while they retreat and try something else. If they don't, that's good too.

The sooner the place is taken out, the sooner they can get fed.

A small raid lets you see what they've got...

Were I in charge of the plot, I'd have been tempted to have them go for a few cities with darts instead, and then discover that the chair's in Antarctica (I assume the antarctic set's been destroyed or something) instead. That'd be much more efficient; let your people get culled, or reveal your defences' position to the wraith. That's the neat thing about the wraith; they don't need their ships to capture civillian populations. It would have been a neat dilemma; let people get taken, or waste your best chance to take down the mothership.

[CaptJodan]

Nothing whacky about that. There's craptons of sattellites in orbit of Earth. The jumper was active and manouvering, the 302 was sitting there.

I was talking about leaving the 304's out there.

... I was talking about the Daedalus. They seem to have no real desire to keep Atlantis intact in the final battle.

Then, again, why stop firing several seconds before they exploded? Kept up a steady stream up until that point. With just 1 more hit to Atlantis' shields, it would be the end.

Let's be fair to them. If the code authenticates, and they've no knowledge of matter bridges, why assume it was from an alternate reality? If McKay hadn't worked with the dimension-jump technology before, he'd have not got it either. I would assume the Wraith on the ship thought it was another hive (we've seen individual hives go for Earth before) sent the message in the same reality.

Previously conceded.

Again, they've no reasonable reason to think it's an alt-verse. As far as they knew, that was the site of the drone system, and they'd taken it out. They were probably baffled as to why it didn't fire, though.

I know I am. But you've made several statements to suggest that they sent the fighters to locate the chair, and destroy it. LOCATE, make sure it's there, and destroy it. If they were sure of its location, what prevents them from just dropping out of hyperspace and immediately firing on Area 51? And if they weren't sure, how were they sure after the fact, when no confirmation of it being there was ever disclosed?

Yes, they're hungry, but they've managed to stave off their hunger long enough to come up with better plans than this. There was no reason to sacrifice darts and lives if there was another solution that would drain all the drones away from the chair in defense against asteroid impacts. If this is a valid plan that you argue can be done in a reasonable amount of time AFTER they tried the fighter plan, then it stands to reason it's an even more valid plan to enact while they are still building up their mega-ship, and still have darts left over for the actual attack on the population.

With the exception of Sheppard, they don't do suicide missions, and his are usually over his superiors' objections.

Sheppard does have a "please kill me" sign on him, yes, but when we're talking about the defense of Earth itself, I think it might be required that someone step up to the plate and consider it. And there is still the jumper.

The gate needs to be re-set to dial out from Earth. Which is a procedure that may take an unknown amount of time. Especially if the wraith have had the sense to disable the dial-out function.

They DID it in the damned episode. It took between 2-5 minutes, by Rodney's estimates, and the Wraith AREN'T intelligent enough to disable the dial-out function. So it is feasible.

Indeed. If we keep going down this line, we'll have to try and explain the planar ring of doom.

I, for one, don't want to go there.

[NecronLord]

I was talking about leaving the 304's out there.

And I'm saying there's nothing 'whacky' about that sensor.

Then, again, why stop firing several seconds before they exploded? Kept up a steady stream up until that point. With just 1 more hit to Atlantis' shields, it would be the end.

Huh. Maybe they wanted to take it under tow. Just because they didn't destroy it doesn't really mean they wanted the people intact. Hell, if nothing else, send some guys over in space suits to get three more ZPMs, with which you can build three more uber-ships.

I know I am. But you've made several statements to suggest that they sent the fighters to locate the chair, and destroy it. LOCATE, make sure it's there, and destroy it.

Stargate has hyperspace sensors. I know most people have forgotten them - hell, the writers have from time to time, witness Be All My Sins. But in-universe, the Wraith should presumably expect that an ancient outpost would see them coming, and that the place would be on battle alert.

If this is a valid plan

Did or did not the Wraith fire asteroids the last time we saw them mount a major attack on a fixed target?

that you argue can be done in a reasonable amount of time AFTER they tried the fighter plan, then it stands to reason it's an even more valid plan to enact while they are still building up their mega-ship, and still have darts left over for the actual attack on the population.

Why? They thought (rightly) that they might luck out, and a dart attack might succeed. Much quicker. They clearly don't care about the pilots' lives, if there are even pilots in those things all the time.

Sheppard does have a "please kill me" sign on him, yes, but when we're talking about the defense of Earth itself, I think it might be required that someone step up to the plate and consider it. And there is still the jumper.

This being stargate, it doesn't work that way. Remember Machello? Not one person thought "Hey, let's make some child-molestor on Death Row take one for planet earth?" hell, the same with Apophis, before they knew Sokar was after him.

They DID it in the damned episode. It took between 2-5 minutes, by Rodney's estimates, and the Wraith AREN'T intelligent enough to disable the dial-out function. So it is feasible.

And they know that before they went... why? Yes, the Wraith are dumb. But I wouldn't want to stake my life on their plot-induced stupidity. Would you?

Again with the 'why didn't the Tau'ri send a bomb through' or whatever - they didn't even send a MALP through. Sensible planning isn't high on their list at this stage. For all Woolsey knew, he was sending his people into an iris. Any plan that requires contriving an improvised explosive, setting it in place, and then getting out (or dying) is clearly beyond them when they can't even twig to take a look through at the other side first.

Yes, in an all sides act sensible scenario, they'd go through en-masse and die heroically while McKay makes a stack of naquadah reactors explode. But in a sensible scenario, the very attempt would fail when they sent a malp through and discovered that there was an iris on the other side. Both sides were being as thick as brick shithouses here, why should we ask why only one decided to act competant?

Even Apophis had a solid understanding of the iris concept.

[CaptJodan]

And I'm saying there's nothing 'whacky' about that sensor.

I'm just not sure they have enough intel to make accurate judgments on when they may see these 304s in the future.

Huh. Maybe they wanted to take it under tow. Just because they didn't destroy it doesn't really mean they wanted the people intact. Hell, if nothing else, send some guys over in space suits to get three more ZPMs, with which you can build three more uber-ships.

Then it would have been great help to fire one more shot, aimed at the shield but known to pass without hitting the city (plenty of opportunities to hit shield and not hit city when it failed) rather than stop before the job was done.

Stargate has hyperspace sensors. I know most people have forgotten them - hell, the writers have from time to time, witness Be All My Sins. But in-universe, the Wraith should presumably expect that an ancient outpost would see them coming, and that the place would be on battle alert.

If only they knew the truth...

Did or did not the Wraith fire asteroids the last time we saw them mount a major attack on a fixed target?

I'm just saying, either it's a good plan, or it ain't. It looks like it wasn't the type of plan they wanted to enact, but it probably would have been the better plan when they first showed up.

Why? They thought (rightly) that they might luck out, and a dart attack might succeed. Much quicker. They clearly don't care about the pilots' lives, if there are even pilots in those things all the time.

Because Sheppard and company were monumentally stupid. But baring that, the fact is they sat there for, presumably, hours before they attacked with darts. It may not have been quicker to simply get the asteroids, fling them at earth, then wait around the moon and continue the modifications while the chair was forced to run itself dry of drones trying to defend Earth and itself.

being stargate, it doesn't work that way. Remember Machello? Not one person thought "Hey, let's make some child-molestor on Death Row take one for planet earth?" hell, the same with Apophis, before they knew Sokar was after him.

We've also seen plenty of instances of personal sacrifice for the greater good, see Weir, and even SG-1 itself when it was aboard Apophis' ship and were fairly certain they were meeting their doom doing it.

And they know that before they went... why? Yes, the Wraith are dumb. But I wouldn't want to stake my life on their plot-induced stupidity. Would you?

No, but once again the team shows us that they WERE willing to stake their lives on it. They may not have had knowledge that they could do it, but they went anyway, and for a less effective purpose (just sabotaging key systems rather than just sticking an overloading reactor there).

[NecronLord]

Well, like I said, all sides were busily chewing the dumb-tobacco in the whole stargate sequence. If we assume the Tau'ri should be bright enough to send improvised bombs, we should assume the Wraith should be bright enough to put a damn iris in the way. Hell, 'procedure is procedure for a reason' Woolsey didn't even send a MALP.

[Crazedwraith]

Do the wraith even have the ability to make a conventional iris? They don't seem to have forcefield technology like Atlantis or the goa'uld (in Orpheus) and we've never seen anyone not even the Tau'ri at Midway put a solid iris on a Pegasus gate. So it may not be doable.

On the other hand this doesn't stop them denying gate use to the Atlantis team. Since they weren't going to use the gate themselves. Just turn it horizontal face up. Or 'bury' it.

Should random earth teams have been ending up on the Wraith ship?

[NecronLord]

Do the wraith even have the ability to make a conventional iris?

Totally-ordinary-not-yet-aquired-any-alien-tech modern earth did it.

In less than a day.

They don't seem to have forcefield technology like Atlantis or the goa'uld

Well, they've got whatever that quasi-force field they use for dart canopies is. And some kind of atmosphere retention fields.

we've never seen anyone not even the Tau'ri at Midway put a solid iris on a Pegasus gate. So it may not be doable.

Point. Still, there's other things they could have done. Such as simply set it up on the moon, or put it on the outside of the ship.

For that matter, a culling beam directed at the gate that immediately dematerialises anything that comes in would also be good, and they could sort out the organic bits for eating later.

On the other hand this doesn't stop them denying gate use to the Atlantis team. Since they weren't going to use the gate themselves. Just turn it horizontal face up. Or 'bury' it.

Burying it would just mean it defaults to the Earth gate, though. A buried gate doesn't lock at all (save in the film special edition )

Should random earth teams have been ending up on the Wraith ship?

Y'know...

That'd have been a rather cool crossover. SG1 (or SG-13 from Heroes Part 1) randomly appear...

[NecronLord]

Also, from the 'culling beam at the gate' I can think of plot that could replace the whole affair of the group going onto the ship. Instead of being there to stop them dialling out, per se, the gate would be there to intercept incoming teams. Toss out some lines about the wraith being able to send a fake (uncoded; which is a bit sloppy, but not obviously so) all-clear signal for the GDO.

Thus, Woolsey and co step through the gate to report to the SGC, and they simply end up in a holding cell on the wraith ship, with various other teams.

"We're a botanical team! This sort of stuff is supposed to happen to SG-1, not us!"

[Chris OFarrell]

Here's a question mark, why the frack when they realized they could gate onto the Hive, didn't they just send a nuke? They MUST have had one on hand SOMEWHERE. Or hell, even just all their Naquadah reactors rigged to overload or SOMETHING. Or hell, fire Atlantis's drones THROUGH the stargate at the hiveship and tear it up from the inside...or something.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hell add to that; why the hell didn't Sheppard just drop the nuke, set it to go off in 20 seconds and fly out? No Wraith came to investigate this alien ship after all...

Add to THAT, why did Atlantis and the Daedalus all just sit there waiting for the absurdly slow energy bolts to hit. Seriously, the Hiveship fires and Daedalus just sits there with Caldwell screaming 'BRACE FOR IMPACT'...instead of say shifting 200 meters to the right and firing back.

And add to THAT, why did the Daedalus waste its firepower on the outer hull, there are lots of targets you CAN hit like the weapons ports, the sublight engines, the dart bay doors, all which have to be exposed to work...

FFS the more I watch the complete version of this episode and the sfx, the more I want to hit my head against the wall.

[CaptJodan]

Hell add to that; why the hell didn't Sheppard just drop the nuke, set it to go off in 20 seconds and fly out? No Wraith came to investigate this alien ship after all...

Add to THAT, why did Atlantis and the Daedalus all just sit there waiting for the absurdly slow energy bolts to hit. Seriously, the Hiveship fires and Daedalus just sits there with Caldwell screaming 'BRACE FOR IMPACT'...instead of say shifting 200 meters to the right and firing back.

And add to THAT, why did the Daedalus waste its firepower on the outer hull, there are lots of targets you CAN hit like the weapons ports, the sublight engines, the dart bay doors, all which have to be exposed to work...

FFS the more I watch the complete version of this episode and the sfx, the more I want to hit my head against the wall.

We need some Valium over here, STAT.

You might note we've already been though a lot of your second to last posts' suggestions, which are valid.

Given that McKay had to rig some kind of detonation thing, I figured maybe he couldn't program the missile to go off on a delay. But that's about the only one that's iffy.

I have no idea why they sat there waiting for the absurdly slow impacts to come. It's part of the reason I have so little faith in what the Apollo and Sun Tzu must have done, as I would think they'd work on maybe dodging the shots. However, then I think that, most of the time, Earth ships just aren't that maneuverable (when they don't want them to be).

The one that bugged me the most was the bay doors, as we see Sheppard blast through them with ease. However, you'll note that it wasn't a straight shot from the doors to the inside of the bay. All that hull armor had twists and turns like nobody's business, which is actually smart. Blast the doors open, but you still have a great deal of hull to get through because it isn't a straight shot. Obviously that wouldn't really work with the weapons or engines, though.

[Strider]

So, the thing that honestly got me, is when did Ronin get a girlfriend? I'm pretty sure I watched every episode this Season, and I didn't recognize her at ALL. I mean, there she is with the whole gang, in the final shot of the series, Jennifer, Rodney, John, Teyla, Woolsey, Beckett, Ronin, and Ronin's random chick. Would she have become a main character in Season 6?

Also, dollars to donuts the Wormhole drive is a setup for something in Stargate Universe, to make it less Deus Ex Machina-y.

[Atavarius]

About what I expected for Stargate: Voyager. Stargate: Enterprise to follow next. I haven't followed the development of that show so is it going to be the same writers?