Questions from T:SCC s2

[weemadando]

OK, so I've watched up to 2.13 now (was that the finale?) and having perused the previous threads, there's a few questions I'd like to look at again.

1) Who sent back Jessie/Riley? I doubt John would order a mission to stop him from becoming the person that he is... Then again, putting it like that, it's entirely possible that's the exact kind of thing he would do. Who in the future aside from John would actually have access/mission authorisation over the time-travel stuff?

2) What is Cameron looking for in the library? Catching the reference to Stark and following it up - is that what she's doing, tracking earlier missions, be they off-target or aimed deeper into history and dead-ending them? Or just trying to learn and expand her knowledge base? Or is there some other purpose we're yet to learn.

3) What the hell is up with that flying-HK prototype? What is the propulsion - it certainly doesn't look anything like an jet, rotor (ducted or otherwise) or anything else current-gen? It's also a non-symmetrical design (something which to my knowledge has never been that successful in aircraft design - aside from a few things like WW2 observation aircraft) so would have to have some pretty impressive avionics.

4) Timeloops/paradoxes - awesome, but how aware are the characters of this? Sure Jessie/Derek have a clue, but are John and Sarah aware of how things are changing?

5) The Grays - aside from the training of infiltrators and perhaps SKYNET itself, what did they do? Were they used as infiltrator's themselves? Have they ever been referenced before?

6) Why is everyone so afraid of John developing a darker personality? You know - it certainly seems that it might have its positives when he's, you know, leading a rag tag bunch of survivors in a post-apocalyptic future war against killer robots? Or are they worried that he's becoming to liberal with his risking of people's lives?

I'm sure that there are more things, but I can't recall them right now.

[weemadando]

Oh yes, and the big one? Is Weaver actually fighting SKYNET? Certainly that's what a lot of the allusions are towards, but that could all be misdirections for Ellison. And was it ever actually shown that the Termie at the nuke plant was sent by her? Or was that all just implied?

[Peptuck]

2) What is Cameron looking for in the library? Catching the reference to Stark and following it up - is that what she's doing, tracking earlier missions, be they off-target or aimed deeper into history and dead-ending them? Or just trying to learn and expand her knowledge base? Or is there some other purpose we're yet to learn.

All the implications of that and scenes in other episodes is that she's going there and learning because she enjoys it. We've already seen other examples of Cameron doing things out of preference or simply for enjoyment, e.g. practicing ballet, painting her nails, changing a radio station to music she prefers, sticking her leg out the window for the hell of it, and showing clear preference for certain Bible passages because she likes them.

There might be some practical value behind her research - some of the spec in the thread for that episode had that her use of expanded martial arts is due to her studying of historical martial arts - but the most obvious explanation for why she sticks around the library at night is she just likes learning. She may be a cold, logical machine, but its clear that she also has preferences and enjoys particular activities, like humans.

[eyexist]

Martial Arts? That's a new one. Which episode is this?

**Also, ep13 wasn't the finale. The show is on Hiatus until February, when it will now air on Fridays.

[weemadando]

2) What is Cameron looking for in the library? Catching the reference to Stark and following it up - is that what she's doing, tracking earlier missions, be they off-target or aimed deeper into history and dead-ending them? Or just trying to learn and expand her knowledge base? Or is there some other purpose we're yet to learn.

All the implications of that and scenes in other episodes is that she's going there and learning because she enjoys it. We've already seen other examples of Cameron doing things out of preference or simply for enjoyment, e.g. practicing ballet, painting her nails, changing a radio station to music she prefers, sticking her leg out the window for the hell of it, and showing clear preference for certain Bible passages because she likes them.

There might be some practical value behind her research - some of the spec in the thread for that episode had that her use of expanded martial arts is due to her studying of historical martial arts - but the most obvious explanation for why she sticks around the library at night is she just likes learning. She may be a cold, logical machine, but its clear that she also has preferences and enjoys particular activities, like humans.

I call BS on the martial arts theory, she's still not actually that much more effective an any increase can be purely put down to now having more kills under the belt and learning how to better deactivate them in a hurry.

[PREDATOR490]

The one thing that really bothers me about this show is the god complex they are attaching to John.

Ok, he WAS the leader of the resistance but everytime they send someone back to change the future, there is no gurantee that John WILL be the leader again.
If anything, they are literally forcing John Connor down a pre-determined road which is stupid when your trying to change that road into a new future.

Saving Bidell and making him stay in the Military = Why ?
They are changing the future... recruiting him right on the spot would make more sense. Instead they leave him to sit in an academy because he will provide John with 'future' support... in a war they are trying to prevent EVER happening right NOW.

On the one hand you have the Connors attempting to alter the future yet on the other they are following a list of names etc. to make sure elements from the future remain where they are as if that future was still going to happen. That really strains my belief to the point that I cannot help but wonder if the writers have a clear picture of what they are doing with the time-travel concept or if they are just doing the typical season to season style of making a show.

From what I can understand of Terminator chronology:

Terminator movies 1&2 -
A - Skynet is created
B - Judgement Day occurs (1997)
C - John Connor beats Skynet
D - Skynet Creates Time-Travel as a last resort
E- Sends back Arnie, Resistance Sends back Kyle Reese (2027 ?)
F- Kyle Reese is Johns father
G- The piece of Arine that remains becomes the springboard for creating Skynet

-Time Out
= Complete paradox, Reese creates Connor and Arnie creates Skynet.
(If Connor was to be killed, Reese isnt sent back by him, Connor isnt born = Skynet dosent send Arnie back = Skynet isnt created = No judgement day ?)

H- Skynet sends back a T-1000, Resistance send Arnie
I- Arnie (Uncle Bob) tells Sarah that Dyson / Cyberdyne creates Skynet using the bits that were salvaged
J- They destroy all that stuff etc, everyone lives happily ever after, except Uncle Bob.

-T/O
= They destroyed the pieces and killed Dyson's work so the Skynet that was created from THIS particular set of events was killed.
Hence, the Skynet in TSCC has to be different.


Based on what I understand of TSCC: BEFORE Cameron etc. come back.
A.K.A The 'original' timeline

K- Sarah Dies in 2005,(Original) Turk (In theory) becomes Skynet, Judgement Day 2012
C - John Connor beats (a different) Skynet
D - (Different) Skynet Creates Time-Travel as a last resort
E- Sends back Arnie, Resistance Sends back Kyle Reese (2027 ?)
H- (Different) Skynet sends back a T-1000, Resistance send Arnie (2027 ?)
L- TSCC future occurs, Alison, Derek, etc.
M- (Different) Skynet sends Crommartie back, Resistance send a 'tech' back to (1963?) and Cameron (1997?), and Derek's team (2008?)

-T/O
= Cameron and Derek must be from the same reality since she knew about the safehouse and thus it makes sense she was in on that part of the plan from 'future' John
Although that brings up a major issue...

N- Cameron finds the Connors, saves them, catapults them 8 years into the future

-T/O-
= The John in the original timeline did not have a catapult hence he would have lived those 8 years = TSCC has INSTANTLY changed the future by making John Connor miss 8 years of his life and thus be 8 years YOUNGER.
>IF< the original DID have a catapult then they are following pre-determined events again. Willingly / Knowingly or not ?...
Cameron told Sarah she would take orders from John but that John and THIS John arent 'the same yet'
Hence, Cameron would appear to have a piece of infromation that makes John able to order her around in the future. Unless she is lying of course but that would seem rather pointless given the circumstances of the conversation.

O- The 'original' Turk is destroyed and replaced by the newer version. Derek Kills Andy

-T/O
= Andy told Derek he created Skynet in the future Derek comes from.
Derek kills Andy in the past, hence Andy is not alive to tell Derek he created Skynet and thus Derek wont kill Andy in the past -Continuity Error-
For those who will attempt to pounce on the idea that Time Travel in TSCC works so that a present change that would affect a future verson will not affect future version from that future working in the present:
Why was future Fisher reacting when his present self got hurt as if it actually hurt him ?
The actions of Jesse would also serve to suggest she knew that killing the present Fisher would prevent his own self-fufilling prohecy to occur and thus alter either Derek's version or her version of the future.

TSCC S2

P - Weaver is sent back (????)

-T/O
-I dont recall it being mentioned when her husband died so any idea of when she came back is unknown from what I know. I would expect she has been in place for some time to develop a personality and assume control of the company. It is also rather curious she JUST happened to be 'on the market' for the Turk when it had only been in existance for a short time.
If she had been looking for it before then surely she would have found Andy with the original Turk which leads to the conclusion she may have known another Turk was going to be created. Hence wont she logically come from a future before Jesse but after the new Turk was created ?

Q- Jess and Riley come back (????)

-T/O
= Jess comes from a future where she claims Connor is making questionable decisions. Apparantly the blame is falling on Cameron as being the cause and thus Jess is attempting to seperate John from her via Riley.
Evidently that means Jess is from a future where present events have altered the future so that Jesse clearly holds Cameron responsible. Yet, Jess is also from a future where Derek 'Didnt say goodbye' -
A.K.A Derek still went back in time - where the fuck is THAT Derek then ?
If she is from a different future, that Derek is a different version and SHE managed to get into the present... so where is HER future's Derek ?

----
I could keep going but this is getting tiring.

Overall conclusion: TSCC has made things pretty complicated by using the time travel plot device. IF they had just left the fucking thing alone and had someone like Weaver build Skynet in the present then have the Connors fight it for multiple seasons, I suspect that could work. I get the impression thats where this is going incidentally.
The current situation however has relied on Terminators coming back from a future that is clearly being changed, yet somehow both sides are following a... set script... of how events are supposed to play out and sticking to it despite the fact that script should be changing as the future changes.
A.K.A
Following a list written on a wall in blood by a guy from the future is extremely fucking retarded when you dont know if his information is going to remain accurate as you start making changes to the future this guy comes from.
The fact that Weaver is following behind the Connors and implementing her own agenda and the addition of Jesse would suggest they are both from a future where the Connors followed that writing and are adapting around it.
Hence, what if Jesse has mistaken Cameron for being the influence on John when it is actually Weaver ?

[SylasGaunt]

My two cents..

It's possible we've got a case of conflicting ideaologies or at least backup plans.

If they can prevent skynet from ever being built, great. It prevents Judgement Day and saves a lot of lives.

If they can't then they want to make sure things stay as close to the original timeline as possible because in that timeline they won.

[Thanas]

OK, so I've watched up to 2.13 now (was that the finale?)

No, it was not the finale. T:SCC will resume on February 13, just in time for the annual attempt by Fox to grab the crown by having shows make a race.

and having perused the previous threads, there's a few questions I'd like to look at again.

1) Who sent back Jessie/Riley?

Unkown. By the looks of it, there is no evidence they were sent by someone at all.

Then again, putting it like that, it's entirely possible that's the exact kind of thing he would do. Who in the future aside from John would actually have access/mission authorisation over the time-travel stuff?

The lab techs working the chronoport at least, as well as possible members of the Command staff.

2) What is Cameron looking for in the library? Catching the reference to Stark and following it up - is that what she's doing, tracking earlier missions, be they off-target or aimed deeper into history and dead-ending them? Or just trying to learn and expand her knowledge base? Or is there some other purpose we're yet to learn.

Considering that she asked the librarian for books about weapons and artillery, I think she is trying to expand her knowledge regarding weapons.

3) What the hell is up with that flying-HK prototype? What is the propulsion - it certainly doesn't look anything like an jet, rotor (ducted or otherwise) or anything else current-gen? It's also a non-symmetrical design (something which to my knowledge has never been that successful in aircraft design - aside from a few things like WW2 observation aircraft) so would have to have some pretty impressive avionics.

No clue.

4) Timeloops/paradoxes - awesome, but how aware are the characters of this? Sure Jessie/Derek have a clue, but are John and Sarah aware of how things are changing?

John has met Kyle and Derek as children, so he is aware of paradoxes...there is no indication he knows of the changing timelines.

5) The Grays - aside from the training of infiltrators and perhaps SKYNET itself, what did they do?

"Sympathize with Skynet"...that is really all Jessie says. In the end, we (the audience) do not know.

Were they used as infiltrator's themselves?

Unknown.

Have they ever been referenced before?

I have no idea, but I have never heard of them before. So if they were referenced, they must have been referenced in the novels.

6) Why is everyone so afraid of John developing a darker personality? You know - it certainly seems that it might have its positives when he's, you know, leading a rag tag bunch of survivors in a post-apocalyptic future war against killer robots? Or are they worried that he's becoming to liberal with his risking of people's lives?

I am not sure everyone is afraid of John developing a darker personality. The main person who worries about that is Sarah, and it is only natural considering she is his mother. Cameron and Derek really do not seem to care that much about him being sunny-boy.

Oh yes, and the big one? Is Weaver actually fighting SKYNET?

If she is fighting SKYNET, why tutor it?

Certainly that's what a lot of the allusions are towards, but that could all be misdirections for Ellison. And was it ever actually shown that the Termie at the nuke plant was sent by her? Or was that all just implied?

It was not shown at all and AFAIK, it is just pure speculation.

There might be some practical value behind her research - some of the spec in the thread for that episode had that her use of expanded martial arts is due to her studying of historical martial arts - but the most obvious explanation for why she sticks around the library at night is she just likes learning. She may be a cold, logical machine, but its clear that she also has preferences and enjoys particular activities, like humans.

I call BS on the martial arts theory, she's still not actually that much more effective an any increase can be purely put down to now having more kills under the belt and learning how to better deactivate them in a hurry.

Well, considering that she utterly dominated the last two fights we saw her in, I am not sure if all of that can be put down to having more kills under her belt. And she did use an unusual move for a terminator - namely a roundhouse kick in her fight against stark.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Greys could've easily blended in with the human populations and be totally invisible to detection systems like dogs. Thus, they could've easily acted as spotters for Skynet.

But since the Resistance has a list of them, maybe they could've been less of footsoldiers and more of actual-factual consultants to Skynet, could've done more horrible things. They could've also included those Luddite groups in Stirling's works.

[Thanas]

Really, Predator, do you have to repeat your points over and over again in every thread? Do you think they will look more intelligent this way?

The one thing that really bothers me about this show is the god complex they are attaching to John.

Ok, he WAS the leader of the resistance but everytime they send someone back to change the future, there is no gurantee that John WILL be the leader again.
If anything, they are literally forcing John Connor down a pre-determined road which is stupid when your trying to change that road into a new future.

So training him in case their mission goes wrong is unnecessary now?

Saving Bidell and making him stay in the Military = Why ?
They are changing the future... recruiting him right on the spot would make more sense. Instead they leave him to sit in an academy because he will provide John with 'future' support... in a war they are trying to prevent EVER happening right NOW.

Already asked and answered. Look back at the relevant thread. However, as to not recruiting him on the spot - it makes no sense because he would bring nothing to the table yet that is not already been done by Derek or Cameron.

On the one hand you have the Connors attempting to alter the future yet on the other they are following a list of names etc. to make sure elements from the future remain where they are as if that future was still going to happen.

No, they are following that list to make sure something detrimental in the present does not happen as well as preserving future assets in case they fail and Skynet goes online. Please point out to me the situations that would have been improved if they had not followed the list. In fact, would you rather have them ignore the list?

That really strains my belief to the point that I cannot help but wonder if the writers have a clear picture of what they are doing with the time-travel concept or if they are just doing the typical season to season style of making a show.

They do have a clear picture.

*snip*
= The John in the original timeline did not have a catapult hence he would have lived those 8 years = TSCC has INSTANTLY changed the future by making John Connor miss 8 years of his life and thus be 8 years YOUNGER.
>IF< the original DID have a catapult then they are following pre-determined events again. Willingly / Knowingly or not ?...

Once again, you do not understand the shifting timelines. Their timejump changed the future. None of that was predetermined.

Cameron told Sarah she would take orders from John but that John and THIS John arent 'the same yet'
Hence, Cameron would appear to have a piece of infromation that makes John able to order her around in the future. Unless she is lying of course but that would seem rather pointless given the circumstances of the conversation.

And you seem to assume that she meant anything but leadership qualities or age reasons....why?

For those who will attempt to pounce on the idea that Time Travel in TSCC works so that a present change that would affect a future verson will not affect future version from that future working in the present:

Wrong theory.

Why was future Fisher reacting when his present self got hurt as if it actually hurt him ?

Well, gee, because it actually hurts you to see people you care about in pain?

The actions of Jesse would also serve to suggest she knew that killing the present Fisher would prevent his own self-fufilling prohecy to occur and thus alter either Derek's version or her version of the future.

WHY?

I dont recall it being mentioned when her husband died so any idea of when she came back is unknown from what I know. I would expect she has been in place for some time to develop a personality and assume control of the company. It is also rather curious she JUST happened to be 'on the market' for the Turk when it had only been in existance for a short time.

That of course assumes she has perfect knowledge of when the Turk was created...when in fact it was only revealed to the public during the chess tournament and then was immediately stolen.

If she had been looking for it before then surely she would have found Andy with the original Turk which leads to the conclusion she may have known another Turk was going to be created. Hence wont she logically come from a future before Jesse but after the new Turk was created ?

This once again assumes that She knows Andy created the Turk, when in fact Sarah was the only one we know of he had shown it too. It is not like Andy advertised the fact that he created the Turk.

Evidently that means Jess is from a future where present events have altered the future so that Jesse clearly holds Cameron responsible.

And your evidence for present events is where, exactly? Your assumption is directly contradicted by the dialoge. Jesse talks about the Connor in the future, not the Connor in the present. In fact, she says that she fears what will happen to him when that metal bitch is now around him all the time.

Yet, Jess is also from a future where Derek 'Didnt say goodbye' -
A.K.A Derek still went back in time - where the fuck is THAT Derek then ?
If she is from a different future, that Derek is a different version and SHE managed to get into the present... so where is HER future's Derek ?

Shifting timelines. I have explained this exact problem several times before. Why do you consist to repeat your theory?

Overall conclusion: TSCC has made things pretty complicated by using the time travel plot device. IF they had just left the fucking thing alone and had someone like Weaver build Skynet in the present then have the Connors fight it for multiple seasons, I suspect that could work. I get the impression thats where this is going incidentally.

Keep speculating about the intentions of the writers. It amuses me.

The current situation however has relied on Terminators coming back from a future that is clearly being changed, yet somehow both sides are following a... set script... of how events are supposed to play out and sticking to it despite the fact that script should be changing as the future changes.
A.K.A
Following a list written on a wall in blood by a guy from the future is extremely fucking retarded when you dont know if his information is going to remain accurate as you start making changes to the future this guy comes from.

Please point out what part of the list they should not have followed and which part of the list has not served to avoid detrimental effects on the present?

Hence, what if Jesse has mistaken Cameron for being the influence on John when it is actually Weaver ?

Yeah, because clearly Weaver is "the only one he talks to" and the one whose relationship with Connor makes Jessie "sick". That really makes sense.

[PREDATOR490]

Really, Predator, do you have to repeat your points over and over again in every thread? Do you think they will look more intelligent this way?

The one thing that really bothers me about this show is the god complex they are attaching to John.

Ok, he WAS the leader of the resistance but everytime they send someone back to change the future, there is no gurantee that John WILL be the leader again.
If anything, they are literally forcing John Connor down a pre-determined road which is stupid when your trying to change that road into a new future.

So training him in case their mission goes wrong is unnecessary now?

He ASKED Sarah to change his future and thus fight the war FOR him. Thats the whole fucking premise of the show is it not ?
He dosent want to be trained and instead is rebeling against those attempts with reckless stupidity.
Just because he WAS the leader of the resistance does not mean he has to be again and there is nothing he can do that Cameron, Derek or Sarah should be able to do to lead the resistance.
They treat it like a given certainity when logically it should not be. Additionally, if their mission goes wrong, John may not even survive so they are resting their hope on one 16 year old kid who COULD become a 'great leader'.
It dosent make sense to try and build a resistance NOW, stash away weapons, recruit people etc. BEFORE the Bombs fall ?

Saving Bidell and making him stay in the Military = Why ?
They are changing the future... recruiting him right on the spot would make more sense. Instead they leave him to sit in an academy because he will provide John with 'future' support... in a war they are trying to prevent EVER happening right NOW.

Already asked and answered. Look back at the relevant thread. However, as to not recruiting him on the spot - it makes no sense because he would bring nothing to the table yet that is not already been done by Derek or Cameron.

He may not bring ANYTHING to the table ANYWAY. If Cameron and Derek are bringing what Bidell would then why make him stay in the Academy rather than let him leave like he wanted ?
'Because he is supposed to' ? - Logically, he wasnt supposed to have encountered a Terminator or John Connor yet so changes have already been made and there is no gurantee this Bidell will become as important especially if Derek and Cameron are going to supply John with the support he requires.

On the one hand you have the Connors attempting to alter the future yet on the other they are following a list of names etc. to make sure elements from the future remain where they are as if that future was still going to happen.

No, they are following that list to make sure something detrimental in the present does not happen as well as preserving future assets in case they fail and Skynet goes online. Please point out to me the situations that would have been improved if they had not followed the list. In fact, would you rather have them ignore the list?

I would rather they showed more intelligence when following that list. This is an issue with the show rather than the characters. They have the characters randomly following a convieniant list which is even in chronological order so far but leave them stupid afterwards.
A.K.A They go to all the trouble to save the power plant and dont follow up on events which Weaver is clearly manipulating.
This is the same with Sherman, they dont bother to keep tabs on him beyond his episode and dont know he is dead. They were able to spot the random Bidell getting killed and jump to action quicker than this.

It seems VASTLY stupid for the Connors to just jump in, save the day, kill the random terminator then fuck off home. Skynet sends a terminator back then obviously there is a reason and just because the Terminator was stopped dosent mean that reason has gone away and thus another Terminator could be sent back to finish the objective.

That really strains my belief to the point that I cannot help but wonder if the writers have a clear picture of what they are doing with the time-travel concept or if they are just doing the typical season to season style of making a show.

They do have a clear picture.

Star Trek Voyager had a clear picture too.
Is that picture going to end up like Voyager or will it be like Babylon 5 ?
So far I remain on the fence either way.

*snip*
= The John in the original timeline did not have a catapult hence he would have lived those 8 years = TSCC has INSTANTLY changed the future by making John Connor miss 8 years of his life and thus be 8 years YOUNGER.
>IF< the original DID have a catapult then they are following pre-determined events again. Willingly / Knowingly or not ?...

Once again, you do not understand the shifting timelines. Their timejump changed the future. None of that was predetermined.

No shit it changed the future. Thats been the entire point of what I have been saying.
Hence forth John ends up younger than he is supposed to be. Thus events from that future relying on JOHN CONNOR is instantly called into question.
Is a 20 year old John Connor going to be able to effectively lead the resistance over a 28 year old ?
More importantly, will that same John Connor lead the same when he has had Sarah, Derek, Cameron etc. rather than being on his own for 7 years in the 'original' TSCC time line.
Simple logic says: No.
According to Jessie & Derek: Definite no
There is no gurantee that Judgment day will happen on 2012 with this new future, Cameron said that any piece of Termie tech could hasten it and we have John Henry sitting wired up with Ellison preaching at him.
Judgement Day may be sooner than these people think which means Connor and Co. are going to be fighting in a different future than the one they seem to be basing their decisions around.

E.G Why try and just protect Surano point when you can try and secure multiple power plants in preperation for Judgement Day ?
I fail to see why Skynet would want Judgement Day to happen.
Judgement Day was supposed to be because the plug was going to be pulled on Skynet. If Skynet is secure then it dosent need to launch any nukes, it should be able to build up infrastructure / resources like Vick or Carter then launch the war when its properly prepared itself.
A.K.A Have someone like Weaver secure power plants, build infrastructure to build HK drones and repair Terminators (John Henry ?) etc.

Cameron told Sarah she would take orders from John but that John and THIS John arent 'the same yet'
Hence, Cameron would appear to have a piece of infromation that makes John able to order her around in the future. Unless she is lying of course but that would seem rather pointless given the circumstances of the conversation.

And you seem to assume that she meant anything but leadership qualities or age reasons....why?

I did not assume this.
Sarah asked her if she was programmed to follow orders from John and she said she didnt take orders from this John yet.
Whatever she is basing that evaluation of John on is unknown however clearly an evaluation is being made wether it be against age, an event or qualties.

I would assume that evaluation was programmed by John Connor or someone which would imply an expectation of what John is going to do / become. If she is programmed to follow him when he turns 18 then the obvious question is WHY 18 and not 17 or 20 ?
If she is programmed to follow after he does something then why that thing ?

Why was future Fisher reacting when his present self got hurt as if it actually hurt him ?

Well, gee, because it actually hurts you to see people you care about in pain?

Fisher works for machines and tortures fellow humans. That makes it suspect he would be affected by watching someone else get tortured.

Evidently that means Jess is from a future where present events have altered the future so that Jesse clearly holds Cameron responsible.

And your evidence for present events is where, exactly? Your assumption is directly contradicted by the dialoge. Jesse talks about the Connor in the future, not the Connor in the present. In fact, she says that she fears what will happen to him when that metal bitch is now around him all the time.

Present Connor ----> Future Connor
A leads to B
B cannot happen without A, yes ?

If present events are not affecting the future then where the hell do you get 'shifting timelines' from ?

Jessie remembers events from her future that Derek does not. Either she is from the same version of the future as him or she is not.

Yet, Jess is also from a future where Derek 'Didnt say goodbye' -
A.K.A Derek still went back in time - where the fuck is THAT Derek then ?
If she is from a different future, that Derek is a different version and SHE managed to get into the present... so where is HER future's Derek ?

Shifting timelines. I have explained this exact problem several times before. Why do you consist to repeat your theory?

Then define 'Shifting Timelines'.

The current situation however has relied on Terminators coming back from a future that is clearly being changed, yet somehow both sides are following a... set script... of how events are supposed to play out and sticking to it despite the fact that script should be changing as the future changes.
A.K.A
Following a list written on a wall in blood by a guy from the future is extremely fucking retarded when you dont know if his information is going to remain accurate as you start making changes to the future this guy comes from.

Please point out what part of the list they should not have followed and which part of the list has not served to avoid detrimental effects on the present?

You mean apart from Sarah Connor going nuts and the rest of the gang shunning her as a loony ?
Or do you mean Weaver following on behind working her own plans on the present ?
They are following a list that has led them to favourable outcomes but their is no proof it will continue to do so and if Skynet catches wind of this scripted list of events, it should be able to out manuver that list like Weaver securing the power plant after the Connors think they saved it.

Hence, what if Jesse has mistaken Cameron for being the influence on John when it is actually Weaver ?

Yeah, because clearly Weaver is "the only one he talks to" and the one whose relationship with Connor makes Jessie "sick". That really makes sense.

If present events affect the future then Catherine Weavers actions, just like the Connors will be affecting the future. In which case, Jessie or whoever sent her may have incorrectly identified Cameron as the cause for unwelcome changes.
If not, it's not like Weaver is a shapeshifter who can assume the appearance of anyone she wants and look like Cameron if she wanted to....

[eyexist]

Well, considering that she utterly dominated the last two fights we saw her in, I am not sure if all of that can be put down to having more kills under her belt. And she did use an unusual move for a terminator - namely a roundhouse kick in her fight against stark.

Okay. I'll assume this is the "martial arts" that people are talking about. I think you guys may want to rewatch the episode. During the fight scene she keeps Stark pinned against the wall using leverage, then uses her leg to kick the elevator gate open. That's it. I suppose she also used Hapkido to turn Rosie into a pretzel, am I right?

Cameron lacks reach and mass. Unless she has a clear tactical advantage or an outside distraction she unfortunately gets her ass kicked.

[Thanas]

He ASKED Sarah to change his future and thus fight the war FOR him. Thats the whole fucking premise of the show is it not ?
He dosent want to be trained and instead is rebeling against those attempts with reckless stupidity.

Quit dodging, answer the question: How does it make no sense training him regardless? It already saved his life several times.

He should be trained simply because Termies are after him.

Just because he WAS the leader of the resistance does not mean he has to be again and there is nothing he can do that Cameron, Derek or Sarah should be able to do to lead the resistance.

I assume it should read shouldn't. And in that case, John has made several right calls that proved critical to the success of the mission. Like using Cameron to hack the traffic system.

They treat it like a given certainity when logically it should not be.

Evidence they treat it as a given certainty? They try to prevent the future after all. And Sarah was very adamant about him going to school.

Additionally, if their mission goes wrong, John may not even survive so they are resting their hope on one 16 year old kid who COULD become a 'great leader'.

So your solution would be to do nothing on the possibility that he could die?

It dosent make sense to try and build a resistance NOW, stash away weapons, recruit people etc. BEFORE the Bombs fall ?

And who says they are not doing that? Case in point, the girl and her sister from Alpine Fields.

He may not bring ANYTHING to the table ANYWAY. If Cameron and Derek are bringing what Bidell would then why make him stay in the Academy rather than let him leave like he wanted ?

They didn't make him do anything. They gave him a choice.

'Because he is supposed to' ? - Logically, he wasnt supposed to have encountered a Terminator or John Connor yet so changes have already been made and there is no gurantee this Bidell will become as important especially if Derek and Cameron are going to supply John with the support he requires.

And backup is supposed to be a bad thing....how?

I would rather they showed more intelligence when following that list. This is an issue with the show rather than the characters. They have the characters randomly following a convieniant list which is even in chronological order so far but leave them stupid afterwards.
A.K.A They go to all the trouble to save the power plant and dont follow up on events which Weaver is clearly manipulating.
This is the same with Sherman, they dont bother to keep tabs on him beyond his episode and dont know he is dead. They were able to spot the random Bidell getting killed and jump to action quicker than this.

It seems VASTLY stupid for the Connors to just jump in, save the day, kill the random terminator then fuck off home. Skynet sends a terminator back then obviously there is a reason and just because the Terminator was stopped dosent mean that reason has gone away and thus another Terminator could be sent back to finish the objective.

They have limited resources. And since Skynet's modus operandi has always been the same as far as they know, none of their decisions makes them stupid. They just cannot follow up everything.

Star Trek Voyager had a clear picture too.
Is that picture going to end up like Voyager or will it be like Babylon 5 ?
So far I remain on the fence either way.

Just comparing this show with Voyager proves you do not get it.

No shit it changed the future. Thats been the entire point of what I have been saying.
Hence forth John ends up younger than he is supposed to be. Thus events from that future relying on JOHN CONNOR is instantly called into question.

Because you say so. Right.

Is a 20 year old John Connor going to be able to effectively lead the resistance over a 28 year old ?
More importantly, will that same John Connor lead the same when he has had Sarah, Derek, Cameron etc. rather than being on his own for 7 years in the 'original' TSCC time line.
Simple logic says: No.

The future so far seems to disagree with you.

According to Jessie & Derek: Definite no
There is no gurantee that Judgment day will happen on 2012 with this new future, Cameron said that any piece of Termie tech could hasten it and we have John Henry sitting wired up with Ellison preaching at him.
Judgement Day may be sooner than these people think which means Connor and Co. are going to be fighting in a different future than the one they seem to be basing their decisions around.

I see no point entertaining your speculation.

E.G Why try and just protect Surano point when you can try and secure multiple power plants in preperation for Judgement Day ?

*Snigger* yeah, three people do such a great job of securing powerplants.

I did not assume this.
Sarah asked her if she was programmed to follow orders from John and she said she didnt take orders from this John yet.
Whatever she is basing that evaluation of John on is unknown however clearly an evaluation is being made wether it be against age, an event or qualties.

I would assume that evaluation was programmed by John Connor or someone which would imply an expectation of what John is going to do / become. If she is programmed to follow him when he turns 18 then the obvious question is WHY 18 and not 17 or 20 ?
If she is programmed to follow after he does something then why that thing ?

Like I said, I will not entertain speculation.

Fisher works for machines and tortures fellow humans. That makes it suspect he would be affected by watching someone else get tortured.

I am glad you are such an expert on Fisher. You surely must have created that character.
Everyone cares about someone. Especially when that person is yourself.

Present Connor ----> Future Connor
A leads to B
B cannot happen without A, yes ?

If present events are not affecting the future then where the hell do you get 'shifting timelines' from ?

Jessie remembers events from her future that Derek does not. Either she is from the same version of the future as him or she is not.

And yet we have people who come from timelines that are not in existence. In fact, in Jessie's timeline, she clearly is talking about the period before Cameron is sent back. I hereby challenge you to provide evidence, whether dialogue or pictures, that prove that Jesse's Connor is the same one that has had Cameron follow him since 2008. Because, you know, Derek's connor clearly was not that one.

Then define 'Shifting Timelines'.

Watch the Fisher ep.

You mean apart from Sarah Connor going nuts and the rest of the gang shunning her as a loony ?
Or do you mean Weaver following on behind working her own plans on the present ?
They are following a list that has led them to favourable outcomes but their is no proof it will continue to do so and if Skynet catches wind of this scripted list of events, it should be able to out manuver that list like Weaver securing the power plant after the Connors think they saved it.

It still does not matter. What part of "Exploding powerplant is bad for the present and has to be avoided?" or "slaughter of military cadet is bad" or "slaughter of familiy is bad" do you not get? No matter the consequences, the list has helped prevent worse effects in the present.

Hence, what if Jesse has mistaken Cameron for being the influence on John when it is actually Weaver ?

Yeah, because clearly Weaver is "the only one he talks to" and the one whose relationship with Connor makes Jessie "sick". That really makes sense.

If present events affect the future then Catherine Weavers actions, just like the Connors will be affecting the future. In which case, Jessie or whoever sent her may have incorrectly identified Cameron as the cause for unwelcome changes.[/quote]

Yeah, right. Just ignore Dungeons and Dragons, ignore Derek's actions, ignore Jessie's own words in favor of your pet theory that is not supported by any evidence at all...

Amusing.

If not, it's not like Weaver is a shapeshifter who can assume the appearance of anyone she wants and look like Cameron if she wanted to....

You have crossed over into loony territory now.

[weemadando]

Present Connor ----> Future Connor
A leads to B
B cannot happen without A, yes ?

If present events are not affecting the future then where the hell do you get 'shifting timelines' from ?

Jessie remembers events from her future that Derek does not. Either she is from the same version of the future as him or she is not.

And yet we have people who come from timelines that are not in existence. In fact, in Jessie's timeline, she clearly is talking about the period before Cameron is sent back. I hereby challenge you to provide evidence, whether dialogue or pictures, that prove that Jesse's Connor is the same one that has had Cameron follow him since 2008. Because, you know, Derek's connor clearly was not that one.

Then define 'Shifting Timelines'.

Watch the Fisher ep.

Or we could look at the fact that Andy Goode told Derek to kill him in the future, and Derek came back and killed him. I think that's a pretty good example of why there must be shifting timelines.

[weemadando]

Oh and as for the Weaver being anti-SKYNET thing, isn't it possible that she's trying to moderate SKYNET? Trying to have it develop in a more rational fashion - so that in the future there's every chance that it won't flip out and try and eliminate all life?

Or perhaps the Turk isn't really SKYNET anymore (after all, the future where it was is now in question as Andy Goode isn't alive to tell Derek) - and Weaver is developing it as some kind of "counter-SKYNET".

[PREDATOR490]

He ASKED Sarah to change his future and thus fight the war FOR him. Thats the whole fucking premise of the show is it not ?
He dosent want to be trained and instead is rebeling against those attempts with reckless stupidity.

Quit dodging, answer the question: How does it make no sense training him regardless? It already saved his life several times.

He should be trained simply because Termies are after him.

Trained to fight, yes
Trained to think the whole world revolves around him and do what people tell him he should do ?

Just because he WAS the leader of the resistance does not mean he has to be again and there is nothing he can do that Cameron, Derek or Sarah should be able to do to lead the resistance.

I assume it should read shouldn't. And in that case, John has made several right calls that proved critical to the success of the mission. Like using Cameron to hack the traffic system.

Cameron, Sarah and Derek have made right calls too. What makes them unfit to lead a resistance anymore than John ?
Even more apparant when John has released leadership in deference to his mother doing it for him.

They treat it like a given certainity when logically it should not be.

Evidence they treat it as a given certainty? They try to prevent the future after all. And Sarah was very adamant about him going to school.

We have everyone from Jesse to Skynet to Sarah treating Connor as the most important factor. Thus they logically believe Connor is going to become a 'hero' etc.
Even if he IS, Connor is not the only factor that affects the future which is clearly proven by the fact Skynet is going after other targets and the portrayals of the future resistance.

Additionally, if their mission goes wrong, John may not even survive so they are resting their hope on one 16 year old kid who COULD become a 'great leader'.

So your solution would be to do nothing on the possibility that he could die?

My 'solution' would be to stop resting all their hopes and effort on making John something he MIGHT become based on a future that MIGHT occur. If he dosent want to lead or fight then get people who will.

He may not bring ANYTHING to the table ANYWAY. If Cameron and Derek are bringing what Bidell would then why make him stay in the Academy rather than let him leave like he wanted ?

They didn't make him do anything. They gave him a choice.

TSCC: Goodbye to all That

Timeframe: 23:00 - 24:00

This entire scene illustrates what I am saying.

Connor: Bidel is quiting, leaving school
Derek: No he isnt, he wont
Connor: Well he is
Derek: He dosent, he graduates, goes to West Point
Connor: Why ?
Connor: Because the future already happened and he is just going through the motions ?
Connor: He dosent have a choice ?
Derek: He's got a choice. We just gotta make him make the right one.
Connor: Like everybody does with me.

Jesse, Cameron, Sarah and Derek all have a vision of what they expect Connor to be and are attempting to make him fufil it. They do this with Derek despite Connor's wishes at the end by convincing Bidell to stay in the Academy despite his obvious reluctance.

'Because he is supposed to' ? - Logically, he wasnt supposed to have encountered a Terminator or John Connor yet so changes have already been made and there is no gurantee this Bidell will become as important especially if Derek and Cameron are going to supply John with the support he requires.

And backup is supposed to be a bad thing....how?

You have already stated Bidel dosent offer anything Derek or Cameron provide. If backup isnt a bad thing then recruiting him now brings something to the table.
Leaving him in the Academy gives them nothing in the present and leaves Bidell a target for another Skynet attack.
If leaving Bidell in the Academy allows him to provide Connor something important, why not leave Connor in the Academy to learn himself ?
If the threat of a T coming back is so dangerous for him in the Academy it should be equally as dangerous for Bidell, no ?

I would rather they showed more intelligence when following that list. This is an issue with the show rather than the characters. They have the characters randomly following a convieniant list which is even in chronological order so far but leave them stupid afterwards.
A.K.A They go to all the trouble to save the power plant and dont follow up on events which Weaver is clearly manipulating.
This is the same with Sherman, they dont bother to keep tabs on him beyond his episode and dont know he is dead. They were able to spot the random Bidell getting killed and jump to action quicker than this.

It seems VASTLY stupid for the Connors to just jump in, save the day, kill the random terminator then fuck off home. Skynet sends a terminator back then obviously there is a reason and just because the Terminator was stopped dosent mean that reason has gone away and thus another Terminator could be sent back to finish the objective.

They have limited resources. And since Skynet's modus operandi has always been the same as far as they know, none of their decisions makes them stupid. They just cannot follow up everything.

Limited manpower is the problem which is why recruiting Bidell seems sensible.
As for Skynet's M.O, Skynet is clearly redirecting it's efforts to secondary targets which means keeping an EYE on these targets would seem like an EXTREMELY wise thing to do.

Star Trek Voyager had a clear picture too.
Is that picture going to end up like Voyager or will it be like Babylon 5 ?
So far I remain on the fence either way.

Just comparing this show with Voyager proves you do not get it.

Babylon 5 had time travel concept that resulted in 'War Without End'
Voyager had a time travel concept that resulted in 'Endgame'

Which one of these is TSCC trying to follow ?

Am I correct your 'shifting timelines' is the equivelent of multiple lanes rather than one ongoing track ?

Game 1) Jessie's timeline
Game 2) Derek's timeline
Game 3) Terminator 3 timeline
Game 4) Kyle's timeline (T1&T2)
Game 5) Non-John Connor timeline (Kyle NOT coming back)

Each of these timelines are COMPLETELY seperate from each other.
A.K.A ALTERNATE REALITIES

If THAT is what your fielding then your 'And yet we have people who come from timelines that are not in existence' is immediately wrong.
= They are seperate from each other then those timelines do exist and thus that would explain why people dont instantly vanish or change when their present person was killed / changed. The present self isnt actually THEIR past self.

If this is the way TSCC is playing Time travel then I will happily conceed but it is NOT time travel.
Additionally, the Skynet that is sending these Terminators back should not be affected by ANY events that happen in the TSCC reality because the Skynet there is NOT it's past self. Which leads to a pretty fucking shitty situation for the TSCC Connors because these Skynet(S) will be able to send T's back until the resistance finally manage to kill the thing(s) in their universe(s) or the bubble tech is no taken out.

[Thanas]

He ASKED Sarah to change his future and thus fight the war FOR him. Thats the whole fucking premise of the show is it not ?
He dosent want to be trained and instead is rebeling against those attempts with reckless stupidity.

Quit dodging, answer the question: How does it make no sense training him regardless? It already saved his life several times.

He should be trained simply because Termies are after him.

Trained to fight, yes
Trained to think the whole world revolves around him and do what people tell him he should do ?

I am not sure if you noticed, but the whole world does revolve around him simply on the account of Skynet trying to kill him and him being essential to the family unit of Derek, Sarah and Cameron.

Cameron, Sarah and Derek have made right calls too. What makes them unfit to lead a resistance anymore than John ?

Because none of them have the same instincts and would not have made the same calls.

Even more apparant when John has released leadership in deference to his mother doing it for him.

Eh, no. He is the one making the big decisions like reactivating Cameron.

We have everyone from Jesse to Skynet to Sarah treating Connor as the most important factor. Thus they logically believe Connor is going to become a 'hero' etc.
Even if he IS, Connor is not the only factor that affects the future which is clearly proven by the fact Skynet is going after other targets and the portrayals of the future resistance.

He is the most important factor. Is that so hard to get into your head? Without him, there would be no resistance at all, or a resistance that is not as effective. Would a Sarah-led resistance have used reprogrammed Terminators? Would it have sent back Cameron?

My 'solution' would be to stop resting all their hopes and effort on making John something he MIGHT become based on a future that MIGHT occur. If he dosent want to lead or fight then get people who will.

You truly do not get the show, do you? It has been shown again and again that he is irreplacable when it comes to making the right call.

TSCC: Goodbye to all That

Timeframe: 23:00 - 24:00

This entire scene illustrates what I am saying.

Connor: Bidel is quiting, leaving school
Derek: No he isnt, he wont
Connor: Well he is
Derek: He dosent, he graduates, goes to West Point
Connor: Why ?
Connor: Because the future already happened and he is just going through the motions ?
Connor: He dosent have a choice ?
Derek: He's got a choice. We just gotta make him make the right one.
Connor: Like everybody does with me.

Jesse, Cameron, Sarah and Derek all have a vision of what they expect Connor to be and are attempting to make him fufil it. They do this with Derek despite Connor's wishes at the end by convincing Bidell to stay in the Academy despite his obvious reluctance.

No. They tell him what will happen and then they leave it up to him. That is a choice.

You have already stated Bidel dosent offer anything Derek or Cameron provide. If backup isnt a bad thing then recruiting him now brings something to the table.
Leaving him in the Academy gives them nothing in the present and leaves Bidell a target for another Skynet attack.

No. Bidell is no longer a target due to the T-888 sent after him being eliminated. Skynet does not send backup assassins. Backup in terms of manpower is a waste of Bidell as he has not completed his academy training. It is a loss of potential.

If leaving Bidell in the Academy allows him to provide Connor something important, why not leave Connor in the Academy to learn himself ?

Because he is needed already, as events have proved.

If the threat of a T coming back is so dangerous for him in the Academy it should be equally as dangerous for Bidell, no ?

Are you really arguing that Bidell is as important a target as Connor? Do you know anyone besides Connor who is a priority kill and has had several Terminators targeting them?

The idea that it should be equally dangerous for Bidell is just ludicrous.

Limited manpower is the problem which is why recruiting Bidell seems sensible.

Because there is no way that wouldn't stir up a hornets nest and besides, Bidell has not even completed training yet.

As for Skynet's M.O, Skynet is clearly redirecting it's efforts to secondary targets which means keeping an EYE on these targets would seem like an EXTREMELY wise thing to do.

Because Skynet always sends backup units, right? Show me evidence that Skynet sends more than one Terminator after any target other than Connor.

Babylon 5 had time travel concept that resulted in 'War Without End'
Voyager had a time travel concept that resulted in 'Endgame'

Which one of these is TSCC trying to follow ?

Am I correct your 'shifting timelines' is the equivelent of multiple lanes rather than one ongoing track ?

Game 1) Jessie's timeline
Game 2) Derek's timeline
Game 3) Terminator 3 timeline
Game 4) Kyle's timeline (T1&T2)
Game 5) Non-John Connor timeline (Kyle NOT coming back)

Each of these timelines are COMPLETELY seperate from each other.
A.K.A ALTERNATE REALITIES

No. Derek's future is changed by the events in the past, resulting in Jessie's timeline.

If THAT is what your fielding then your 'And yet we have people who come from timelines that are not in existence' is immediately wrong.

It is not.

Let me explain it to you one last time. And this will be my last attempt, because I have no intention of reading your worthless walls of text anymore.

Shifting timelines. There is one past and one future. There are no multiple timelines. Let me try it one more. Remember the original terminator? John Connor himself is a paradox. Without Kyle Reese, there would have been no Connor. Without Connor, there would have been no Kyle Reese sent back. The timeline is in flux. The same applies to the Fisher situation.

Time travel creates paradoxes. E.g.: Derek, who is able to exist at the same time as his younger self.
The actions of the time travellers have immediate consequences about the future. Like Jessie remembering things about Derek he does not - because the Derek we know is a paradox and because his personal future - his memories - differ from the Derek that is now in the future.

If the future Derek would have been sent back with the memories, his memories would have been different (Likewise, due to his actions, the new new derek would have different memories as well). But he wasn't sent back, and that is how the Derek he knows and the Derek Jessie knows are able to be different - one paradox has the memories of a future unaltered by himself.

Additionally, the Skynet that is sending these Terminators back should not be affected by ANY events that happen in the TSCC reality because the Skynet there is NOT it's past self. Which leads to a pretty fucking shitty situation for the TSCC Connors because these Skynet(S) will be able to send T's back until the resistance finally manage to kill the thing(s) in their universe(s) or the bubble tech is no taken out.

See above. If the Connors manage to destroy Sknyet in the present, the future will rewrite itself.

[Peptuck]

Oh and as for the Weaver being anti-SKYNET thing, isn't it possible that she's trying to moderate SKYNET? Trying to have it develop in a more rational fashion - so that in the future there's every chance that it won't flip out and try and eliminate all life?

Or perhaps the Turk isn't really SKYNET anymore (after all, the future where it was is now in question as Andy Goode isn't alive to tell Derek) - and Weaver is developing it as some kind of "counter-SKYNET".

Of course, we also have to ask the question of whether the Skynet they're fighting in the future of SCC is really the same Skynet that TechCom was fighting in the previous movies. There's a pretty serious shift in both strategy and outcome here; previous Skynet didn't appear to use time travel all that much and deployed the Terminators as a last resort, while this Skynet uses them as a matter of course, and in the films TechCom had defeated Skynet, while now the war is still in doubt, at least from what we've seen. It doesn't necessarily mean there's something completely different controlling the machine army, but the Connors' actions seem to have altered the future to a degree.

[Shroom Man 777]

The most important question I have to ask is:

Why isn't Cromartie's death-song, from Mr. Ferguson is Ill Today, included in the T:SCC soundtrack?

And what'd the Mexican lyrics' mean, anyway?

[Rogue 11]

I just got caught up on the series and I have to ask:

Does the bleeding guy from the future imply that the Resistance got beaten? A last ditch attempt to save things?

I mean the only way we have to gauge the future situation what with all the alterations from time travel is through the time missions. And that's the last mission we've seen from the resistance and to state the obvious it did not look good.

And if the resistance lost what was the cause? One of Skynet's time missions? Or Jesse and Riley's little rogue operation?

If I'm right I personally suspect latter.

[Thanas]

I just got caught up on the series and I have to ask:

Does the bleeding guy from the future imply that the Resistance got beaten? A last ditch attempt to save things?

No. There are countless other possibilities - like him being part of a cell that was sent to fix things, but which ran into trouble, hence him coming back to the Connors for backup.

[Rogue 11]

No. There are countless other possibilities - like him being part of a cell that was sent to fix things, but which ran into trouble, hence him coming back to the Connors for backup.

Well he was hit during/prior to transit since the bullet exited just as he appeared in 2008 (Or is it 2007?). So what sort of trouble hit in the middle of an important base? Somebody tried to stop him? He transited in the middle of a firefight?

You are right that I jumped to conclusions and it might not be as dire as I thought. But still if he was shot just as he started a time travel something was seriously wrong (I somehow doubt it was an accidental weapon discharge) and I have to wonder why they didn't send a followup when the mission was quite possibly compromised from the start.

Unfortunately we probably won't know what happened when he timeshifted for some time if ever.

EDIT: Well not sending a followup isn't too weird as nobody seems to send a followup to a failed time mission. Problems with causality if they do?

[Thanas]

No. There are countless other possibilities - like him being part of a cell that was sent to fix things, but which ran into trouble, hence him coming back to the Connors for backup.

Well he was hit during/prior to transit since the bullet exited just as he appeared in 2008 (Or is it 2007?). So what sort of trouble hit in the middle of an important base? Somebody tried to stop him? He transited in the middle of a firefight?

Where do you get that info from?

[Rogue 11]

Where do you get that info from?

On screen. We get to see him transit in Automatic for the people. The bullet is seen exiting as he arrives in a back alley. Now I suppose it is possible that somebody just happened to fire at him as he appeared, but it looked like as if it came with him to me.

[Thanas]

After rewatching, I have to say I completely forgot about that. Sorry about that. Still, I wouldn't necessarily call it a success of Skynet. It might just be that there is further infighting in the resistance.

Skynet termies do not really use bullets.