Mandos Vs Spartans

[Ghost Rider]

Ok...we have aboutzip on the Mandos except some weirdo Traviss Wank, that still tells little to nothing of them. And as bad as the books wanked the SPARTANS, we at least have the idea they have some grasp of group tactics. As for Mando tactics? We've seen only a singular notions from Jango/Boba. Jango at least tried to run the fuck away from the Jedi, the first time. Apparently went stupid the second time and got bitched by Mace. Boba got fucking bitched by a blind man with a stick because he didn't shot the fucker first, and nearly killed because he thought tying up a low level Jedi meant he was helpless.

Also just because Boba and Jango have jet packs means diddly and shit. They are both Bounty Hunters who piece mealed their fucking armor, we're assuming that all Mandalorians have this?! I guess because some merc has a special rifle, must mean his military of nationality has the same fucking thing. The only thing we have on them is they likely have SW grade armor, maybe not military but something, and both sides have E-11s. So really it's down to who's superior in tactics and abilites. I'd just give it to the SPARTANS because as dumb as they are, they have shown at least some tactics versus the near zilch we've seen from the Mandolorians...and no the fucking clones do not count because they were trained as the Republic Army.

[Connor MacLeod]

yeah, the "better equipped" argument is a bit of a joke. If you've ever actually spent time lookint on the Halo wiki, some of their weapons are frigging jokes capability wise. Plasma weapons (as of around Halo 3) had some absurd stats - little better than a blackpowder musket/rifle in terms of capability (they were outclassed in terms of range by USNC weapons - the 7.62 MM NATO rounds definitely outrange that.

Mind you, Mandotech is pretty overrated too. THey had some fancy sensors in their helmets and 360 HUD (It was covered in the EGW&T but I dont want to dig it out.. maybe wookieepedia covers it) but nothing exceptional (I think weapon linked motion and infrared sensors but that's it) as well but the rest of it isn't of much use (vibroknuckles? yeah, lets go hand to hand with a Spartan - BRILLIANT.) The Jump pack is only of use from a mobility perspective, but even then its going to be highly visible and noisy.

What it comes down to basically (at least with equal weapons) is who is the better shot and who gets the shot off first, in which case its almost certainly the Spartans.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh man that Wiki list of nonsense is hilarious. Combat reflexes 20ms... somehow, that does something! He can 'regenerate' because he went from locked-armour and having a concussion to... standing up! No 'mental instabilities' even though MC is a revenge-driven maniac with PTSD visions!

I agree about the "regeneration" thing (although I do remember one of the novels touching on faster healing, I'm pretty sure,) since that could just be indicative of sheer toughness (which would actually be better since combat is likely to be short term unless they acquired Wolverine's healing factor.)

The reaction time and other capabilities I'm pretty sure are true (they might come from the novels, but I haven't dug into the novels in some time.) Reaction time by itself doesnt neccecsarily mean much but given their running speed its not unreasonable that they can move their arms substantially fastert han a human, and even a modest speed advantage is going to be better (Mandos, even the wanky kind, ,are still mortal.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Halo Combat evolved manual mentions the Ghosts plasma guns run at 100-250 KW range. At canon difficulty settings they can toast a Spartan in seconds shields notwithstanding.

EDIT : The manual also includes figures for normal handheld plasma weaponry. The plasma rifle is rated at 100-150 Kv at 2-3 dA. The plasma pistols overcharge can destroy the strongest personal shielding like that used on SpecOps Elite and Commander Elite armors. It is rated at 1.5 Mv at 2-3 dA.

I hope you can apply your analysis here to come up with something.

I know those stats but they're not really all that impressive. "Per shot" it comes out to at best double digit KJ for the plasma weapons (dA is deciAmps) and triple digit for "overcharge." As I recall the Covvies heavier antipersonnel cannon are something like 100-250 KW too, so that puts definite limits on the "average" plasma rifle firepower (The Ghosts I believe.. I dont remember all the exact names)

Generally I only assume single digit MJ possible simply by assuming they utilize multiple power settings (what the "overcahrge" is and that usually assuems a rifle (Several times more powerful than the pistol.) and also based on the double/low triple digit KJ per shot outputs with the clip capacity (which tells us the most energy the guns can output without needing reloading.)

As I said, defense is probably totally pointless for the Spartans at least vs blaster fire, since even at its highest settings a blaster rifle ought to crank out a few MJ per shot. But of course its unlikely Mando Armor is anywhere more blaster resistant either (And even if it is, its got exploitable unarmored gaps to aim at.)

As far as the FRG goes I was just ascribing an upper limit of som ekind, but its probably over generous by orders of magnitude (there are different models of FRG for one thing, and the high end calcs tend to be "omnidirectional" weapons.)

[Stark]

I agree about the "regeneration" thing (although I do remember one of the novels touching on faster healing, I'm pretty sure,) since that could just be indicative of sheer toughness (which would actually be better since combat is likely to be short term unless they acquired Wolverine's healing factor.)

Yeah, the wiki seems to be suggesting he seriously injured himself at the start of Halo3 and 'regenerated' instead of just being knocked out by the shock of impact (which actually makes him TOUGHER, which is ironic).

The reaction time and other capabilities I'm pretty sure are true (they might come from the novels, but I haven't dug into the novels in some time.) Reaction time by itself doesnt neccecsarily mean much but given their running speed its not unreasonable that they can move their arms substantially fastert han a human, and even a modest speed advantage is going to be better (Mandos, even the wanky kind, ,are still mortal.)

That's what I was getting at; even if you could prove they've got super reflexes, what's it going to do beyond decision-making? He's likely to respond to the unknown faster than a Mando, but it's not like he's going to be dodging bullets or anything daft like that. I think GR hit the nail on the head with the Spartan training; they're actually likely to take cover, use their advantages in running speed/reaction time/etc to actually fight properly, instead of the way we see Mandos fighting (at least in the movies).

[Connor MacLeod]

eah, the wiki seems to be suggesting he seriously injured himself at the start of Halo3 and 'regenerated' instead of just being knocked out by the shock of impact (which actually makes him TOUGHER, which is ironic).

The other thing I vaguely recall reading is that the suit itself has some sort of first aid or medical capabilities as well, and that would complicate any claims of "regeneration" that the Spartan has. Besides which, alot of the procedures done on a Spartan are more mechanical than organic in nature, so any resilience they have is bound to be due to that.

That's what I was getting at; even if you could prove they've got super reflexes, what's it going to do beyond decision-making? He's likely to respond to the unknown faster than a Mando, but it's not like he's going to be dodging bullets or anything daft like that.

Who said anything about "bullet dodging?" Heightend reflexes can offer some advantages (the ability to observe/process information faster) or just simply the ability to move their hands faster (out shoot the mandos) As I said, the latter isn't unreasonable given their abilities to run considerably faster than a human and the former will be a big asset in decision making (as in "deciding to shoot the mandos before they shoot me.") THats all they really need (not that plasma weapons are hard to doge as I recall, they're distinctly subsonic weaponry.)

I think GR hit the nail on the head with the Spartan training; they're actually likely to take cover, use their advantages in running speed/reaction time/etc to actually fight properly, instead of the way we see Mandos fighting (at least in the movies).

Probably, since the Sparttans are pretty much shown in the novels to do a fair bit of covert-ops type activity and fighting, rather than "sitting out in the open and shooting".

[Shroom Man 777]

And Shroom, what a load of horseshit. 'He can shape the battle as he sees fit'? Dear lord. He can RUN FAST. Mandos have JETPACKS.

They can REACT FASTER. Something happens and the Mandos would go "huh?" like any normal human while a Sparty would be already reacting to it with all sorts of tacticool stuff. When they'll be in a firefight, they'll move way faster than the Mandos as a group and will be quicker in thinking up and choosing what course of action to take and acting on it. The Mandos will have to catch up and with all the distractions in the battlefield slowing them down and muddying things up, they'll have a distinct disadvantage. The Mandos will be slower, and not just on the physical side of things, and that's gonna be bad for them especially if they don't possess the firepower advantage to fuck the Spartans up with the first hit.

How can you beat someone who can not only move faster than you, but can also think faster than you? Even when you attack him first, he'll be counter-attacking in seconds before you can even think up of a counter-attack to his counter-attack, and in the end you'll be the one reeling and retreating.

[Hawkwings]

The enhancements listed on page one are accurate, they're from the first novel. The regeneration thing is not from any source I'm aware of, though. My guess is that MC overpressurized the gel layer in his suit and locked the joints, like Fred and the rest of Red team did when they got dumped from high altitude. The toughness comes from the armor and the fact that his bones are layered in metal.

[Stark]

They can REACT FASTER. Something happens and the Mandos would go "huh?" like any normal human while a Sparty would be already reacting to it with all sorts of tacticool stuff. When they'll be in a firefight, they'll move way faster than the Mandos as a group and will be quicker in thinking up and choosing what course of action to take and acting on it. The Mandos will have to catch up and with all the distractions in the battlefield slowing them down and muddying things up, they'll have a distinct disadvantage. The Mandos will be slower, and not just on the physical side of things, and that's gonna be bad for them especially if they don't possess the firepower advantage to fuck the Spartans up with the first hit.

How can you beat someone who can not only move faster than you, but can also think faster than you? Even when you attack him first, he'll be counter-attacking in seconds before you can even think up of a counter-attack to his counter-attack, and in the end you'll be the one reeling and retreating.

Even in the novels Spartans are nothing like this. They're faster, sure, but they're not in the Matrix. Stupid crap like 'he'll counter-attack before you even finish attacking' is absurd. Going hand-to-hand with a Spartan is retarded regardless due to the strength disparity, but they're not the Flash.

[Hawkwings]

There's a couple mentions in the novels about Spartan Time, and how the Spartans view the world slowing down when their adrenaline is pumping.

[Darth Yoshi]

Mind you, Mandotech is pretty overrated too. THey had some fancy sensors in their helmets and 360 HUD (It was covered in the EGW&T but I dont want to dig it out.. maybe wookieepedia covers it) but nothing exceptional (I think weapon linked motion and infrared sensors but that's it) as well but the rest of it isn't of much use (vibroknuckles? yeah, lets go hand to hand with a Spartan - BRILLIANT.) The Jump pack is only of use from a mobility perspective, but even then its going to be highly visible and noisy.

360 HUD? How the hell does that even work? Last I checked, humans didn't have eyes in the back of their heads.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even in the novels Spartans are nothing like this. They're faster, sure, but they're not in the Matrix. Stupid crap like 'he'll counter-attack before you even finish attacking' is absurd. Going hand-to-hand with a Spartan is retarded regardless due to the strength disparity, but they're not the Flash.

I'm not talking about Matrix time or hand-to-hand combat. I'm talking about how they'll move and react in a firefight as a squad, how even if the Mandos catch them by surprise in an ambush, the Spartans will be only caught for a shortest time and then they'll be mounting an effective counter-attack with accurate fire and movement to cover or to flank the Mandos faster than the Mandos would expect them to. Even with the Mandos putting the first strike in, the superior physical and mental reaction times of the Spartans would mean that unless the Mandos had a huge advantage in terms of firepower or positioning, the Spartans would still end up out-thinking and out-maneuvering the mere mortal Mando men. Then the Mandos would be the ones having to catch up with the Spartans, even though they were the ones who initially had the advantage, because the Sparts will simply (re)act faster.


I'm not talking about hand-to-hand. Though Master Chief would've so dropkicked Jango off that platform in Kamino. Then a Sea Saarlac would've eaten him.

[Samuel]

If KoTOR is canon, than Mandalorian armor is some of the best in the galaxy, but not very flexible. Of course, it doesn't have any major enhancements inbuilt...

[Stark]

The Kotor armour looks nothing like 'modern' Mando armour, however; it's got a penis for a helmet.

Shroom, again, even the novels don't show the Spartans as 100% clear-thinking tactical reaction machines. They have an advantage, but I just don't see how any source supports it being as large an advantage as you describe.

And frankly Halo games would have been WAY BETTER if you could jump 20ft into the air and roundhouse kick people in the face. Goddamn lack of superpowers.

[MJ12 Commando]

And frankly Halo games would have been WAY BETTER if you could jump 20ft into the air and roundhouse kick people in the face. Goddamn lack of superpowers.

Off topic, but what game wouldn't be better with the ability to jump 20ft into the air and roundhouse kick someone? I'm failing to think of examples.

The Spartans seem... idiosyncratic. On one hand they have ridiculously precise on-the-fly aim and on the other hand they seem to have a limited grasp of basic tactics like not standing still looking like a doofus while people unload their rifles at you.

I mean yeah, you could say that Master Chief was reliant on the shield, but if he had been trained conventionally it'd be instinct to get to cover first, then return fire/disable them second.

[Stark]

Because it fits the setting, dumbass. In the games MC has zero powers of any kind; he's a totally normal FPS protaganist. If he really had all this HUD shit and reflexes and super strength and running etc (as shown somewhat in Crysis) the game could have been a very interesting 'MC is the apex of the assault' style game where his unique abilities are used to assist human forces across the battlefield and filling niches that are otherwise impossible AND it would have been more interesting (ironically it might have actually been 'combat evolved' in this case).

Instead of 'circlestrafe and shoot the manz while everyone else dies in seconds'.

[Kartr_Kana]

The Mandolorians in KOTOR games don't have jet packs, only the Fett does.

In the comic books there are quite a few Mandalorians that use jet packs. I think we can give it to them for this scenario.

The Kotor armour looks nothing like 'modern' Mando armour, however; it's got a penis for a helmet.

The helmet looks different, but the armor it's self looks a lot like Jango's. Even before KT Mandalorian armor was supposed to be better at stopping blasters though it covered less. I think it mentions that in the AotC visual dictionary when talking about Clone Armor.

I'm talking about how they'll move and react in a firefight as a squad, how even if the Mandos catch them by surprise in an ambush, the Spartans will be only caught for a shortest time and then they'll be mounting an effective counter-attack with accurate fire and movement to cover or to flank the Mandos faster than the Mandos would expect them to. Even with the Mandos putting the first strike in, the superior physical and mental reaction times of the Spartans would mean that unless the Mandos had a huge advantage in terms of firepower or positioning, the Spartans would still end up out-thinking and out-maneuvering the mere mortal Mando men. Then the Mandos would be the ones having to catch up with the Spartans, even though they were the ones who initially had the advantage, because the Sparts will simply (re)act faster.

Reaction time in combat isn't about genetics or biological enhancement. It's about training and more importantly experience and your mindset. It doesn't matter how smart you are, if you freeze when things start exploding or rounds fly past you're fucked no matter how fast you can think normally. Training will cause certain things to become ingrained, like seeking cover or knowing what area you're supposed to cover. Experience will teach you what works best in most situations and will also teach that even the wrong action taken quickly is better then the best action later. KotOR era Mandalorians were hardened veterans with dozens even hundreds of campaigns under their belt. They might not have the physical speed of the Spartans, but their reaction time should be similar.

[Ford Prefect]

They might not have the physical speed of the Spartans, but their reaction time should be similar.

No, it wouldn't be. The SPARTAN's have an upgraded, superhuman nervous system designed to transmit faster than is humanly possible. Stark is correct in thinking that it won't given them an unbeatable advantage, but saying that a human Mandalorian would have a similar reaction time is silly.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroom, again, even the novels don't show the Spartans as 100% clear-thinking tactical reaction machines. They have an advantage, but I just don't see how any source supports it being as large an advantage as you describe.

I was thinking that if the Spartans were significantly quicker thinkers than Mandos, then a firefight between them would play out much like an equal number of well-trained and experienced spec-ops vets taking on conventional grunts who would be slower on the uptake.

Ironically, I've never played the games much (except on multiplayer on a friend's Xbox, where I nearly schooled everyone since no one really played the game much) or read the novels. Are the books worth it?

[Kartr_Kana]

Ford my point was simply that reflexes are not simply determined by how fast your brain and nervous system are. Training, experience and familiarity with your weapon are all factors. The Mandalorians have an advantage in that they are much more familiar with blasters, their recoil, accuracy, etc.

One a side note do both sides get their grenades? If so that'd be an advantage for the Mandalorians since they have access to everything from simple frag grenades to thermal detonators to things like glop grenades or cryoban grenades. I'm pretty sure that Thermal Dets are more powerful then anything the SPARTANs have and while a cryoban or glop grenade might not stop a SPARTAN it should slow him down.