Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

[Knife]

hmmm. Not that Subjugator isn't a cool class name, but I don't care for it because it doesn't fit with established naming conventions for separatist warships. Seems more like an imperial-class name to me.

I'm more interested in the heavy cruiser classification. While the struggle against Star Wars minimalism is certainly aided by the presense of multi-kilometer Sep ships designated as mere cruisers, I'm not sure it fits, given the stated presense (at least according to VT-16) of far smaller ships that also bear the heavy cruiser label. Personally, I would probably have pegged the Malevolence as a battle cruiser.

Most of that nonsense is filtered out if you go by the two tier system. On a galactic scale, a 7-8km ship would be kind of the high end of cruiser, considering the 'communications ship' at Endor was scaled by Saxton at 4-6km and provisionally called a cruiser. No, confusion might settle in if you just simplify it by saying cruiser, without the *star* prefix but if almost all the combatants in the battle are upper tier, it is more cumbersome to toss in prefixes.

I also proposed, some time ago, that further confusion might set in on a two tier system if on the lower local scale, the 'cruisers' on that scale were big enough to qualify both in length and power (if not purpose built role) to be a galactic scale low end ship. Say the bog standard Mon Cal 'cruiser' we see at Endor. Lots of references call them Mon Cal cruisers, however they are roughly equal to, both in size and power, an Imperial Stardestroyer. How can it be a 'cruiser'? On a local level (lower tier of a two tier system) such a ship would pretty much max out that level in size and power, so that cruiser may be a Cruiser at the local level in any small systems or even series of systems defense fleet, but on a galactic scale be a Stardestroyer or Starfrigate level ship.

So put it to the ships mentioned in the thread; the Dreadnought cruiser that is also refered to as Dreadnought frigate etc...the 600m hull at it's time might have had the power and size to be considered a huge and powerful warship at a local planetary system level, but at the galactic level is trivial and thus a Starfrigate. You can play the same game with Carrack such, the small ships the minimalists in the EU put on us. Granted, as you get to the lower levels of the local tier, it can no longer apply, a Lancer frigate on a galactic scale is a Stargunship or some such nonsense.

[VT-16]

There is also the age factor. Both the Invincible and the Dreadnaught are older designs, from fargone times. During the Mandalorian Wars, the 3,1km saucer-shaped Inexpugnable-class command ship was considered so huge it was almost a space station rather than a conventional starship, in 3,000 BBY The Invincible-class was among the largest and most powerful warship designs of the day, in 100 BBY, the Dreadnaught-class represented a new era of larger and more aggressive Republic warships, and now the Subjugator-class eclipses all of them.

[Knife]

There is also the age factor. Both the Invincible and the Dreadnaught are older designs, from fargone times. During the Mandalorian Wars, the 3,1km saucer-shaped Inexpugnable-class command ship was considered so huge it was almost a space station rather than a conventional starship, in 3,000 BBY The Invincible-class was among the largest and most powerful warship designs of the day, in 100 BBY, the Dreadnaught-class represented a new era of larger and more aggressive Republic warships, and now the Subjugator-class eclipses all of them.

True, but with 'age' were really talking about size and power versus role. It is not so unreasonable to assume in the past where the Republic was not threatened and at peace, large powerful ships to counter large powerful enemy ships were not required. In such a dynamic; a starfleet would need only contend with local planetary sized ships and thus galactic tier ships would tend to shrink to match the intended enemy.

As large enemies group together to make a credible threat against a galactic civilization, then you'd see ship sizes and thus power levels jump higher to deal with a galactic scale enemy. My take on it anyways. Age does matter, you are right.

[Ender]

There is also the age factor. Both the Invincible and the Dreadnaught are older designs, from fargone times. During the Mandalorian Wars, the 3,1km saucer-shaped Inexpugnable-class command ship was considered so huge it was almost a space station rather than a conventional starship, in 3,000 BBY The Invincible-class was among the largest and most powerful warship designs of the day, in 100 BBY, the Dreadnaught-class represented a new era of larger and more aggressive Republic warships, and now the Subjugator-class eclipses all of them.

Age doesn't come into it, that is one of the results of being a technologically stagnant civilization.

[VT-16]

I meant mostly in the "too old to bother fixing/updating" department. We know there were some innovations made in the decades following 3,000 BBY, where smaller warships (i.e. hundreds of meters long) improved their cannons and other weapons-systems, and the navy started focusing more on groups of smaller ships rather than big ships that went at it relatively alone, even though these smaller designs were less powerful overall. This led to the marginalization of designs like the Invincible-class, and despite its long service-life, it spent most of its latter millennia as a glorified patrol ship. (HSATCSSB)

I assume this also explains why the tiny Hammerhead-class was in use by the end of the New Sith Wars, since it went through upgrades and even some rebuilding (a Jedi task force leader resided in a larger cruiser than the other Hammerheads, though they were all the same design originally, according to DB:POD).

But with the increasing disturbance in the Republic and outside, the doctrine shifts to larger warships and we get newer designs that no doubt encorporate similar advances like the small ships, only magnified. So with the shifts in doctrine over the millennia, the "heavy cruiser" designation no doubt gets to move around a bit. I think it's even hinted in DB:POD that an early Dreadnaught-class design was active, so that might show how the ships that get so much airtime in the EU, are really much older and worn out than we think.

So far, most sources have stayed relatively consistent with assigning "battleship" status to ships that are either multi-mile long, biggest in a navy, or both. "Battlecruiser" is a bit trickier, since it's often spelled "battle cruiser", but I liked how the Centurion-class was basically assigned to the Star Destroyer-lookalike in KOTORCG, thus potentially explaining why the Imperial ships are called "battle cruisers" or just "cruisers" in a lot of sources. It might be out of habit, in rememberance of past millennia. That's why it's good we do have the "star" tier ships for these things.

A Star Frigate for ships the size of most heavy cruisers, and Star Destroyer for ships the size of old battlecruisers. Then Star Cruiser, Star Battlecruiser and Star Dreadnought for respective designs that would approximate most other battleships used by marginal powers.

[VT-16]

And, of course I forgot the most obvious, while the CIS can field designs that equal the Republic, unlike the Republic, they don't use their popularized designations. So for Star Destroyers, there's CIS destroyers, and for Star Cruisers, there's CIS heavy cruisers, battleships instead of Star Dreadnoughts and battlecruisers instead of Star Battlecruisers etc.

[VT-16]

I can't believe it. One of the best episodes so far and it almost starred Jar Jar.

[Darksider]

was jar-jar being........ competent? what the hell?

It was kinda amusing seeing the power duo's escape attempts fail miserably only for Jar-Jar to come to the rescue.

"If we don't escape by the time the ransom arrives, we'll be humiliated"

[VT-16]

Oh yeah, there's that factor as well. Jar Jar being competent, Anakin and Obi-Wan failing. What is the galaxy coming to?

I like how his bumbling antics caused the death of three people at the start, since the clone gunner couldn't counter-attack in time, thanks to his button-pushing. I guess when he's not around a lever or button, Jar Jar suddenly increases his competance.

[Darksider]

Oh yeah, there's that factor as well. Jar Jar being competent, Anakin and Obi-Wan failing. What is the galaxy coming to?

I like how his bumbling antics caused the death of three people at the start, since the clone gunner couldn't counter-attack in time, thanks to his button-pushing. I guess when he's not around a lever or button, Jar Jar suddenly increases his competance.

so he's basically Dee Dee from Dexter's Lab?

"oooooh Whatsa this button dooo"

[VT-16]

Yeah, I think so. Also, his new voice actors sounded nothing like Achmed Best. Though really, who would care at this point? =p

He did grow on me, both the actor and the character. They need to make more stories where clones just throw him onto enemies and wait until the dust settles.

[Tiriol]

He did grow on me, both the actor and the character. They need to make more stories where clones just throw him onto enemies and wait until the dust settles.

It would be humiliating indeed for the Grand Army of the Republic to report that many victories of the war were gained by the meticulous use of "throw Jar-Jar Binks at the opponents, duck, cover and hope for the best" tactic.

[Darksider]

It would be humiliating indeed for the Grand Army of the Republic to report that many victories of the war were gained by the meticulous use of "throw Jar-Jar Binks at the opponents, duck, cover and hope for the best" tactic.

I'm just imagining the look on traviss' face when someone throws it in her face in a debate about the effectiveness of the clones.

Debater: "yeah, well there were clones who had to have Jar-Jar win the battle for them"

Traviss: "......."

[Old Plympto]

Hondo got some of the best lines. Pooh Bear delivered them fantastically.

"As my sweet mother always said, 'Son, if one hostage is good, two are better, and three, well, that's just good business!'... Thank you, Momma."

"Who turned off the power. I was having fun."

And again, some onscreen deaths you don't really associate with Cartoon Network shows.

[Force Lord]

Dang it, I´m missing out the good stuff all because I lack cable TV!

Worse still, apparently my computer won´t let me see the episodes on the official site. Guess I´ll have to try YouTube or Cartoon Network´s site.

[VT-16]

Hondo was a good example of how to provide a memorable background character. I hope they continue this trend of interesting voice actors. We've had Ron Perlman, Phil Lamarr, Jim Cummings and soon, George Takei.

[JME2]

so he's basically Dee Dee from Dexter's Lab?

"oooooh Whatsa this button dooo"

Great analogy, though now I've spit mineral water all over my keyboard...

[Force Lord]

Slightly off-topic here, but Wookieepedia now claims that the Mandator-II is at least 8km long because in HoloNet News — A Galaxy Divided, science experts of the Core Worlds made note of the size required for a ship large enough to destroy entire task forces of capital ships, a minimum was a length of 8km.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator ... readnaught

[Ender]

Slightly off-topic here, but Wookieepedia now claims that the Mandator-II is at least 8km long because in HoloNet News — A Galaxy Divided, science experts of the Core Worlds made note of the size required for a ship large enough to destroy entire task forces of capital ships, a minimum was a length of 8km.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator ... readnaught

Well as a minimum 8 km would do, but I'd put it at about 13 km myself.

[VT-16]

Yeah, that was me again. I thought it was the best attempt at scaling something so obscure, given the same age and usage. This is for the absolute minimum, though. Even the expert had it as a minimum. The change from pre-war Mk.I to war-era Mk.II could be an increase in size, as this was done with the Mk.I Bulwark to later models, according to Dan Wallace.

When the last part of the Dawn of Defiance RPG comes out, we might get the final word on whether the 12km new flagship the Empire was building, was the largest known design so far (not counting the Eye of Palpatine that got lost).

[JME2]

On a side note, as a huge fan of his work, it's been awesome to have Jim Cummings guest star as Hondo Ohnaka in the last two episodes.

[Raesene]

When the last part of the Dawn of Defiance RPG comes out, we might get the final word on whether the 12km new flagship the Empire was building, was the largest known design so far (not counting the Eye of Palpatine that got lost).

I think we're lucky if we are still alive when the last DoD-module comes out

Regarding the last episode, the obedience training of clones can't be too strong - after all, they sent an acknowledged superior and member of the Senate into Harm's way...

Dooku's way of dealing with pirates was better compared to Obi Wan's.

[Darksider]

Dooku's way of dealing with pirates was better compared to Obi Wan's.

I was rather surprised to see the high and mighty aristocrat wasn't above strangling someone with a pair of handcuffs.

you'd think he'd use the force to kill him.

[Force Lord]

Well, Jedi Crash is today at 9:00 PM. Still can't see episodes on the official site...

[Murazor]

I was rather surprised to see the high and mighty aristocrat wasn't above strangling someone with a pair of handcuffs.

you'd think he'd use the force to kill him.

I was rather surprised to see that Dooku left without his lightsaber, actually, because he apparently has recovered it when we see him again at the beginning of ROTS. I guess that he might have built another one, but it is also possible that we haven't yet seen the last of these particular pirates.