Starship Troopers(book) or Dark Troopers?

[Littlefoot]

First topic post for me, so this will probably be down and dirty. So who would win an engagement in say, an urban environment? One squad of 12 ODSTs in thier powered armor and a full load of grenades and full Y-racks, Or one squad of 12 Dark Troopers with all thier assorted weapons including thermal detonators and gas grenades. Assume both groups have access to pre-fight ground scans and both have enough fuel and power for 4 days of peak performance and near constant jumps. The city is expendable and about the size of Dallas. No orbital scans or outside support/jamming once both are on the ground. Earth-like atmosphear.

I use Dark Troopers because stormies would get pasted and I don't know of another powered imperail infantry unit. If anyone knows of a better match-up please let me know.

[Swindle1984]

The Mobile Infantry issues tactical nuclear weapons to its enlisted personnel.


[/thread]

[Coyote]

Dark Troopers are able to jump from a ship in orbit to attack a ground base (Talay Tak Base). That shows the ability absorb quite a bit of heat and damage, so nukes won't be an end-all in this.

[Captain Seafort]

Dark Troopers are able to jump from a ship in orbit to attack a ground base (Talay Tak Base). That shows the ability absorb quite a bit of heat and damage, so nukes won't be an end-all in this.

Is this purely in their operational gear, or with extra stuff? If it's the former then it seems to indicate that their armour is tougher than that of the MI, given the latter's need for drop capsules.

[MJ12 Commando]

Is this purely in their operational gear, or with extra stuff? If it's the former then it seems to indicate that their armour is tougher than that of the MI, given the latter's need for drop capsules.

I believe they have repulsor systems so they may be able to make a powered re-entry, which is far gentler than an unpowered re-entry as they never have to hit the atmosphere at a ridiculous velocity.

[Chris OFarrell]

In 'Dark Forces' they used drop pods, they didn't jump naked from high orbit, at least the prototypes against Tak base.

They also had heavy firepower comparable, if not greater then MI suits as they were able to blast down a base shield around Tak base in a matter of minutes. I think they can carry micro proton torpedoes just like spacetrooper suits, in addition to their standard anti-personnel rockets, so they sure have the firepower. Their armor is also damn near impossible to breach with infantry weapons -its made of Phrink so it can even resist lightsabers- and they are very fast and agile...

[Coyote]

In 'Dark Forces' they used drop pods, they didn't jump naked from high orbit, at least the prototypes against Tak base.

In the cutscene from the Dark Forces game, weren't they moved into position just in their "Stormie-style" suits and dropped out open bay doors?

[Hawkwings]

We may want to clarify which version of darktrooper we're talking about here.

[Connor MacLeod]

The problem is that unless the DT have their "flying" capability like the Mk3 suits they're probably fucked on a mobility scale, and the heavy weapons (the rockets and nukes) could possibly outrange blasters (even if not they can allow for indirect fire, which will basically be the same thing.)

Problem is I dont remember their exact loadouts esp how many nukes each carried (I vaguely recall nukes were carried but weren't neccesarily standard armament) and that they carried a bunch of conventional explosive and incendiary loads as well. And some sort of thermal weapon of some kind.

[Pelranius]

Given the mention of powered armor, I assume that Littlefoot would have Phase III in mind.

How do the sensors for the ODST compare to the Dark Troopers, anyways? This is an urban environment, so knowing where your enemy is and jamming his sensors and comm would also be important?

[Invictus ChiKen]

Problem is I dont remember their exact loadouts esp how many nukes each carried (I vaguely recall nukes were carried but weren't neccesarily standard armament) and that they carried a bunch of conventional explosive and incendiary loads as well. And some sort of thermal weapon of some kind.

As I recall there not standard as SGT "Jelly" made a big deal about not wasting them and Rico also commented that it was the first (or possibly only second) time he had been allowed to use them outside of Basic.

[Littlefoot]

I tried to find my copy but it seems that I lost it while moving. But If I recall correctly the Y-rack carries 12 nukes and Rico had 3 nuke rockets. Also, I think that they use a Force/OpForce HUD display that only shows enemies that are sighted by other units on the ground or by orbital scan. May be wrong on that one though. But if that is how they work then the MI will not know where the Dark Troopers are, possibly untill it is to late. And yes I do mean the Mk3.

[Darth Hoth]

I think they can carry micro proton torpedoes just like spacetrooper suits, in addition to their standard anti-personnel rockets,

Source?

Of course, rapid-firing "detonite" missiles in large supply ("apparently limitless" or some similar hyperbole in the Essential Guide to Droids, old and new) with independent targeting abilities are nothing to be sneezed at, nor are "assault cannon" (basically antitank "laser" weapons, which gives consideable firepower when on the SW scale), nor the kind of thermal detonators that can take down fortresses . . .

The problem is that unless the DT have their "flying" capability like the Mk3 suits they're probably fucked on a mobility scale, and the heavy weapons (the rockets and nukes) could possibly outrange blasters (even if not they can allow for indirect fire, which will basically be the same thing.)

Problem is I dont remember their exact loadouts esp how many nukes each carried (I vaguely recall nukes were carried but weren't neccesarily standard armament) and that they carried a bunch of conventional explosive and incendiary loads as well. And some sort of thermal weapon of some kind.

Nukes are non-standard, and appear to be fairly rare (Rico had only used them once or twice before the intro battle in the book, I think); when they do equip them, they have two-kiloton miniaturised fission devices, I cannot remember off the top of my head how many per head. How does that compare to the larger thermal detonators that are mentioned in the EU sources?

Phase III Dark Troopers fly (as do Phase II, but they are robots, not mobile armour), though I do not think we have any data on how well.

[Captain Seafort]

I tried to find my copy but it seems that I lost it while moving. But If I recall correctly the Y-rack carries 12 nukes and Rico had 3 nuke rockets.

Four rockets actually, with a range at least out to the horizon from "the tallest building in the neighbourhood" (this is in a fair-sized city). They, or at least the sensors they use to initially accquire their target, are line-of-sight only.

The Y-rack only carried HE bombs, and threw them out to "a couple of hundred yards each way". How much ammo they carried overall is never mentioned, but at one point Rico was still carrying 100kg or so of ordnance having already expended an A-rocket and quite a few HE bombs. An unarmoured MI is also described as weighing less than the "ammo and stuff" they go into action carrying.

[Ender]

Unfortunately, I just left the book behind. But as I recall, when talking weaponry, Rico talks about the bugs, while lacking power armor, having weapons just as powerful, including lasers able to "flash fry" or "cook" (I forget which) a man in his suit. In other words, the armor is so tough, that the troopers don't get shot, they die from the rad poisoning they absorb that the suit doesn't shield against. To kill you in a shot like that we are talking an awful lot of radiation - even 80 Grays will put you in a coma for a bit before you die. And this is what the suit doesn't stop, it take more on the outside, and is apparently undamaged by it. Unfortunately we don't know enough about the suit specs to build from there, though I guess one could try to figure out how much shielding it offers based off proximity to those baby nukes and work back from there. On the face of it though, I'm inclined to give it to the MI.

[Darth Hoth]

How reliable would that dialogue be, and how specific? I do not have the book readily available to check.

[Captain Seafort]

But as I recall, when talking weaponry, Rico talks about the bugs, while lacking power armor, having weapons just as powerful, including lasers able to "flash fry" or "cook" (I forget which) a man in his suit. In other words, the armor is so tough, that the troopers don't get shot, they die from the rad poisoning they absorb that the suit doesn't shield against.

Not quite - the exact quote is "they've got a beam that will penetrate armour and slice flesh like cutting a hard boiled egg". Later in the novel, however, it's stated that "amber-red [a measure of radiation] would kill an unprotected human, but a trooper in armour take it for quite a time". The radiation in question was coming from a large crater (big enough to drop a two-company transport into) caused by a bug land mine.

[Darth Ruinus]

They're called MI, the ODST are from Halo.

From what I remember of the book, the MI never mentioned any type of rifle weapon. They carried their Y-racks, rocket launchers, and a hand flamer, which I assume is like a flamethrower outfitted on each hand. They also had laser knives.

[Ford Prefect]

and a hand flamer, which I assume is like a flamethrower outfitted on each hand.

Rico actually uses his, on a narrow setting, to cut through stone, if I remember the opening part of the novel correctly.

[Captain Seafort]

Rico actually uses his, on a narrow setting, to cut through stone, if I remember the opening part of the novel correctly.

Not quite. They're equipped with two types of flamer - the two hand flamers, and a "heavy flamer", about the size of a rifle. Rico used the latter on narrow beam to cut his way through the wall of a building. What the range of the weapon is isn't specified, and whether or not it would be effective against Dark Trooper armour I don't know.

[Darth Hoth]

Given that lightsabres are not, I would tend to doubt it if the evidence is based off that alone.

[Pelranius]

What's the upper limit for a heavy blaster's firepower? Han was worried enough about those stormtroopers in the beginning of ESB who were aiming that E Web at the Falcon, but I don't know if the Dark Trooper III assault cannon is that powerful (I would be inclined to believe that it is)

[Bilbo]

Given that lightsabres are not, I would tend to doubt it if the evidence is based off that alone.

Not really. It was mentioned earlier that they were lightsaber resistant becuase of the special phrick (or whatever its called) alloy they are made from that is specially designed to resist sabers. Considering how rare Jedi are this is a rather expensive armor upgrade.

[Captain Seafort]

Given that lightsabres are not, I would tend to doubt it if the evidence is based off that alone.

Not really. It was mentioned earlier that they were lightsaber resistant becuase of the special phrick (or whatever its called) alloy they are made from that is specially designed to resist sabers. Considering how rare Jedi are this is a rather expensive armor upgrade.

Indeed. There's also the fact that cortosis ore, while it resists lightsabres effectively, does so by shorting them out, and is structurally very weak. I don't know anything about this "phick alloy", but it may be the same.

[Cykeisme]

Phrik is just plain tough (presumably structurally as well as to thermal effects).
Dark Troopers aren't armored with it because it resists lightsabers; by the time they were developed (after the first Death Star was destroyed), the threat of Jedi was no longer present. Incidentally, it can be damaged by lightsabers, just not easily.
Grievous' MagnaGuard staves were also made of the stuff.

Btw, the Dark Troopers discussed here refers to Phase III Dark Troopers, like the one General Rom Mohc was piloting at the end of Dark Forces, right?