Tactical Shooters

[Pulp Hero]

I dusted off my copy of GRAW:2 and have been playing it this weekend. I'd forgotten how fun this game is, especially the levels where I spent all my time in the Cross-Com camera mode, and only disable it to walk my character the extraction points at the end.

Anyway, I've played all the Ghost Recon games, the newest Brothers in Arms, Full Spectrum Warrior, and the newer Rainbow Six games.

I'm looking for other tactical shooters that lean more towards Full Spectrum Warrior, which I loved every minute of, and less towards Rainbow Six which is not really tactical at all. I want games with flanking, and full fire teams and all that goodness.

Any suggestions?

[Steel]

Have you played hidden and dangerous 2? Its set in ww2 unlike those other ones but you do have a lot of tactical freedom in terms of squad control and planning as well as gear selection (and there are a lot of automatic weapons if you aren't too keen on bolt action rifles).

Another good one is swat 4, although that's police actions rather than military. If you have the original swat 3 still later patches add multiplayer and a whole shedload of new weapons which makes it quite fun experimenting with the 100 round Cmags and the detailed penetration system, allowing you to put AP ammunition through several buildings at once- handy if you know there aren't any hostages nearby

[Pulp Hero]

Have you played hidden and dangerous 2? Its set in ww2 unlike those other ones but you do have a lot of tactical freedom in terms of squad control and planning as well as gear selection (and there are a lot of automatic weapons if you aren't too keen on bolt action rifles).

Another good one is swat 4, although that's police actions rather than military. If you have the original swat 3 still later patches add multiplayer and a whole shedload of new weapons which makes it quite fun experimenting with the 100 round Cmags and the detailed penetration system, allowing you to put AP ammunition through several buildings at once- handy if you know there aren't any hostages nearby

Nice. I've heard good things about SWAT4, but I've never played any of the SWAT games, so I'll look into that. How is the squad control compared to say, Rainbow Six, which I find too arcadey.

Also, there needs to be a SPEZNAZ: Hostage Rescue game. 125 terrorists, 75 hostages, 200 bodybags, mission accomplished.

[CaptHawkeye]

What I love about "Tact-i-cool" shooters is that no matter how much developers act like it isn't true, they're STILL ripping gameplay straight out of Quake. It turns out most developers are dumbshits, and couldn't think of a good gameplay design to emulate realistic Tactical Ops if it was dropped into their office like a flashbang. So they need to default to the good old popular titles to save themselves the trouble of actual thought. Now all they have to worry about managing is 1 or 2 new features instead of droves.

But no, they can't think beyond conefire. They can't think beyond linear corridor strolling. They can't think beyond super strafing. They can't think beyond health bars. When they can, no one will support them. Because publishers can't think beyond demographic charts, and will squash original designs literally because "it doens't look like this other game we used to play."

...oh, as for the topic. Flashpoint 2 is supposed to be coming out in 2 months or so. It remains to be seen whether or not Codemaster's design team isn't made up of ignorant jackasses. We'll find out soon won't we?

[Steel]

Have you played hidden and dangerous 2? Its set in ww2 unlike those other ones but you do have a lot of tactical freedom in terms of squad control and planning as well as gear selection (and there are a lot of automatic weapons if you aren't too keen on bolt action rifles).

Another good one is swat 4, although that's police actions rather than military. If you have the original swat 3 still later patches add multiplayer and a whole shedload of new weapons which makes it quite fun experimenting with the 100 round Cmags and the detailed penetration system, allowing you to put AP ammunition through several buildings at once- handy if you know there aren't any hostages nearby

Nice. I've heard good things about SWAT4, but I've never played any of the SWAT games, so I'll look into that. How is the squad control compared to say, Rainbow Six, which I find too arcadey.

Also, there needs to be a SPEZNAZ: Hostage Rescue game. 125 terrorists, 75 hostages, 200 bodybags, mission accomplished.

SWAT 4 you have yourself and a team of 4 officers (2 in red team 2 in blue). As the team leader you can give basically any orders you want to your squad. If you have the expansion pack they add in a feature that should have been in there- dealying multiple orders to teams, enabling you so easily set up 2 teams to enter a room from opposite sides and flashbang and stun grenade simultaneously (but this could be worked around with a bit more micro). You dont have a planning phase before the mission, you can decide your entry route and see floor plans in the briefing, but you dont set a plan before the mission starts. Then once in the mission you order your team to perform any tasks from securing evidence, dropped hostile weapons and compliant (read: punched in face) hostages and enemies to clearing rooms.

You dont need to be right next to your teams, you can issue them with orders via their helmet cameras if you want to as well, which makes it easier to set up entries from multiple angles or send a team to block a certain direction.

You have location damage on yourself, so getting shot in the leg means you have to limp along for the rest of the mission, and being hit in the arm means your assault rifle isnt much use other than on single shot. This can be mitigated by taking heavier armour which can make you much more resistant to the lighter weapons, but in turn makes you a bit less mobile.

[weemadando]

SWAT 4 was damn good, not as good as 3, but still solid.

Sadly it suffers from "Clown Car Terrorist" syndrome, where despite the fact that your briefing says that the escape car of some bank robbers crashed and you're going in to take them down, you'll be fighting at least 20 guys w/AKs and body armour. Because they forgot to tell you that it was apparently a fucking BUS full of terrorists that crashed.

That said, SWAT 4 is still really worth it (especially with the expansion pack). And also - make sure that you pick up a mod like SSF for it before you play, because the native aiming system is horrific. Who knew that a highly drilled SWAT operator took 5 seconds to take aim at someone? Seriously, if you try and shoot you will generally hit the wall 5 feet to your right, rather than the target that the barrel of your weapon is pressed up against. That is of course, unless you give him the full 5-6 seconds of standing stock-still to allow the reticle to settle. By which time of course, you've already been shot about 100 bazillion times.

Best thing in that game though? Door wedges. You can fuck with the suspects SO hard in some missions by just funneling them around the level and into a final "killing room" through judicious use of these. And then laugh maniacally and you lob flashbang after flashbang, CS canister after CS canister, and sting-grenade after sting-grenade into that room, all the while ordering your men to open fire with beanbags, tasers and generally just wail on the poor unfortunates within.

[MJ12 Commando]

Isn't there the Pepper Ball Paint Gun in that game? I heard it was pretty broken as long as the enemy didn't have masks.

It has to be embarassing to be decked out in full body armor and wielding an AK-47 and get taken down by a cop with a goddamn PAINTBALL GUN.

[Stark]

That gun even has ~200 rounds. The risk is masks or 'tough guys' = you're dead, but on the early (ie, semi-realistic) missions it's fine. It's later on (and in the retarded addon with 'GO TO NIGHTCLUB AND WIPE OUT DRUG ADDICT INFANTRY BATTALLION SIGHTED WITHIN' missions) that it's dangerous to use given the entirely random placement of masks and 'tough guys'. I just carried a sidearm; if 3-4 pepper balls didn't do anything I murdered the suspect in cold blood.

Because that's how it's done in the REAL police force.

[weemadando]

That gun even has ~200 rounds. The risk is masks or 'tough guys' = you're dead, but on the early (ie, semi-realistic) missions it's fine. It's later on (and in the retarded addon with 'GO TO NIGHTCLUB AND WIPE OUT DRUG ADDICT INFANTRY BATTALLION SIGHTED WITHIN' missions) that it's dangerous to use given the entirely random placement of masks and 'tough guys'. I just carried a sidearm; if 3-4 pepper balls didn't do anything I murdered the suspect in cold blood.

Because that's how it's done in the REAL police force.

That's why in the expansion the 40mm beanbag rounds are the best thing you can have. That baby with the Glock as a sidearm and an ammo pouch full of extra 40mm rounds is the only way to go if you want to make it while going LL.

[PeZook]

SWAT4 AI is actually complete shit. You better learn to take down terrorists yourself, because your guys:

1) Can't use tactical aids for shit (will walk through the door into the room full of suspects instead of throwing a CS canister in)

2) Can't round corners. Entire teams get slaughtered by single suspects with pistols if only they stand right around the corner.

3) Can't taze suspects who are choking on CS but won't surrender

4) Will get stuck in tight spaces to be slaughtered by a single suspect

5) Will inevitably get killed if a room is more complicated than a rectangle, is too small, too large, has an obstacle in the middle or is of the wrong color.

6) Are completely oblivious to their environment (What, opening in the wall of a corridor? Why look there?)

In addition, your snipers don't have a "shoot on sight" command, which means you have to switch to them (and stop in the middle of the operation) for them to be of use. This is doubly hilarious because such an option already was implemented in Rogue Spear several years before

And as Stark noted, the later missions get more and more retarded. Not as much as "hey this convention center just got taken over by terrorists FOR THE FOURTH TIME" in SWAT 3, but missions like the night club are pretty bad. Oh, hey - you're the only SWAT element in New York. Go and take down the thirty suspects there, and don't expect any backup!

Also, did you turn, take a step forward or blink? Maximum conefire ahoy!

[weemadando]

SWAT 3's missions were just insane.

"Oh, btw - the entire security details, catering staff, drivers and entourages for all of the different heads of state attending, yeeaaaaah, they're all terrorists and got weapons in and have taken everyone hostage. AGAIN. Oh, and somehow - we're not quite sure another 20 or so terrorists in body armour and with assault rifles snuck in. AGAIN. Yeah, I know that after the SAM attack on their flights, the incident at the Convention Centre, the storming of the Russian President's Hotel, the Convention Centre again, the takeover of LAX and ahh -yeah, the siege of City Hall too... Yeah, after all of those you thought we probably would have been screening things a little more tightly and had, you know, more than one SWAT element on standby, but there you go... Yeah, go and deal with it, there's a shitload of VIPs in there counting on you."

That said, the friendly and enemy AI was WAY better in SWAT 3 than in 4. Plus, in the expansion there was the option to have 10 man elements.

[CaptHawkeye]

"Clown Car Enemies" is pretty obviously a move by developers to compensate for a lack of genuinely challenging enemies. Substitute quality with quantity. Notice how devs will brag about enemies "seeking cover". Hint: They get behind a bookshelf, and never move after that. So you can just camp your gunsight over the shelf thus i r winnar.

Like PeZook said, don't even get started on friendly AI. It's funny how the player will be dealing with friendly NPCs the most, yet they frequently have the least amount of development effort put into them.

That was the whole reason I dumped R6V2, the clown car enemies were inexcusable after everybody had complained about it from the first game. Well, that and the frame rate drops.

[Oskuro]

I personally love the character controls from both R6V, they really make me feel in the action. But I agree that some better squad control (GRAW style) would make it better as a Tactical shooter. Right now it's just an immersive shooter at best.

Oh, and would it kill Ubisoft to include a map editor? or MOD tools? Even with the achievements in R6V2 the game is too damm short! So much potential wasted

[TheMuffinKing]

R6V2, could have been much more tactical and is still one of my favorite games. In my opinion, the R6 series could have benefited from having larger open environments with enemies that at least tried to flank you. Throw in some suppressing fire and marginally smarter AI team mates and you would have a much better game. I love the controls and agree with LordOskuro, it is immersive shooter but not revolutionary.

BTW R6V2 is $10.00 on Steam this weekend!

[Edward Yee]

Suppressing by the enemy or suppressing by your teammates? If I recall, Michael Williams is the only teammate who would be suppressing the enemy (with his customized M249)... unfortunately, if your enemies do actually stay behind cover, you're going to have to go over to them to kill 'em. For the enemy suppressing you, the only way that would work is if the player can actually be gotten to hunker down instead of willfully going into fire in hopes of killing the enemy first.

I hated all the fancy GUI in GRAW2 and felt that it made the game a little too easy (come to think of it, just like the IGN concern that the gameplay doodads helped shorten the campaign), but stuff like an AI designated marksman was helpful, whereas in GRAW2 you'd have to provide your own long-range marksmanship (wasn't Jung Park limited to the G36C and the MP7?).

[TheMuffinKing]

Suppressing by the enemy or suppressing by your teammates? If I recall, Michael Williams is the only teammate who would be suppressing the enemy (with his customized M249)... unfortunately, if your enemies do actually stay behind cover, you're going to have to go over to them to kill 'em. For the enemy suppressing you, the only way that would work is if the player can actually be gotten to hunker down instead of willfully going into fire in hopes of killing the enemy first.

I hated all the fancy GUI in GRAW2 and felt that it made the game a little too easy (come to think of it, just like the IGN concern that the gameplay doodads helped shorten the campaign), but stuff like an AI designated marksman was helpful, whereas in GRAW2 you'd have to provide your own long-range marksmanship (wasn't Jung Park limited to the G36C and the MP7?).

I'm hoping for suppression from both sides. I suppose this may be difficult to accomplish, but I think it would be awesome if the enemy tried suppressing fire and flanking and stuff. I thought GRAW2 had a designated marksman available, I know R6Vegas 1 and 2 rely on you to do any sniping as your teammates are restricted to using the m249, mp7, and g36c.

[The Vortex Empire]

Suppressing by the enemy or suppressing by your teammates? If I recall, Michael Williams is the only teammate who would be suppressing the enemy (with his customized M249)... unfortunately, if your enemies do actually stay behind cover, you're going to have to go over to them to kill 'em. For the enemy suppressing you, the only way that would work is if the player can actually be gotten to hunker down instead of willfully going into fire in hopes of killing the enemy first.

I hated all the fancy GUI in GRAW2 and felt that it made the game a little too easy (come to think of it, just like the IGN concern that the gameplay doodads helped shorten the campaign), but stuff like an AI designated marksman was helpful, whereas in GRAW2 you'd have to provide your own long-range marksmanship (wasn't Jung Park limited to the G36C and the MP7?).

I'm hoping for suppression from both sides. I suppose this may be difficult to accomplish, but I think it would be awesome if the enemy tried suppressing fire and flanking and stuff. I thought GRAW2 had a designated marksman available, I know R6Vegas 1 and 2 rely on you to do any sniping as your teammates are restricted to using the m249, mp7, and g36c.

GRAW 2 does have a designated marksman, but she's an awful shot and more of a liability than an asset.

[weemadando]

I thought GRAW2 had a designated marksman available, I know R6Vegas 1 and 2 rely on you to do any sniping as your teammates are restricted to using the m249, mp7, and g36c.

GRAW 2 does have a designated marksman, but she's an awful shot and more of a liability than an asset.

Anyone who takes a sniper in a Ghost Recon game (1 onwards) is an idiot as the AI are way better marksman (read: AIMBOTS) than you will ever be and will pop enemies heads open from 1500m with their sidearm.

[TheMuffinKing]

I thought GRAW2 had a designated marksman available, I know R6Vegas 1 and 2 rely on you to do any sniping as your teammates are restricted to using the m249, mp7, and g36c.

GRAW 2 does have a designated marksman, but she's an awful shot and more of a liability than an asset.

Anyone who takes a sniper in a Ghost Recon game (1 onwards) is an idiot as the AI are way better marksman (read: AIMBOTS) than you will ever be and will pop enemies heads open from 1500m with their sidearm.

I noticed this in the Ghost Recon and its expansions, but I felt the snipers were less useful in GRAW 1 and 2. I did notice their effectiveness increase when I designated targets, but the snipers (for me at least) never seemed to engage the enemy at long range independent of my commands.