Year of Hell time ship vs the empire

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

SPOOFE wrote:I already pointed out how it would be nigh impossible for the Krenim ship to find a "suitable targe". It could barely calculate a temporal incursion with only three centuries' worth of data to work from... imagine having to do so with three HUNDRED centuries worth.

In short, it can't do it.
The reason it needed to perform careful calculations was that it needed to RESTORE a civilization. To DESTROY one, all one needs is to find and nuke their Homeworld. The problem would be that they would actually need to travel TO the homeworld, which could require a long time.
If you have a knife and need to help a person by removing a growth, carefull precision and calculation is required. If you want to KILL the person, just stab away!
I am capable of rearranging the fundamental building blocks of the universe in under six seconds. I shelve physics texts under "Fiction" in my personal library! I am grasping the reigns of the universe's carriage, and every morning get up and shout "Giddy up, boy!" You may never grasp the complexities of what I do, but at least have the courtesy to feign something other than slack-jawed oblivion in my presence. I, sir, am a wizard, and I break more natural laws before breakfast than of which you are even aware!

-- Vaarsuvius, from Order of the Stick
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Re: Year of Hell time ship vs the empire

Post by Darth Servo »

Darth Wong wrote:
Shrykull wrote:In year of hell I remember they wiped entire species out of existence, and I remember Annorex was telling Chakotay(sp?) if he had erased a comet that he would have altered (or eliminated) the existence of several species/civilizations
More proof that it was a delusion. Since when is an action performed with a single comet going to wipe out several species, unless all of those species happen to live in the same place?
About that comet. The reason they thought about erasing it was it diverted Voyager from their planned course.

How large are the biggest known comets? How large could they theoretically be.

Most importantly, how much would Voyager need to divert their course to avoid it? I'm guessing a few thousand km absolute tops.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Embracer Of Darkness
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 1065
Joined: 2003-01-26 01:08pm
Location: paul.barlow@embracerofdarkness.co.uk

Post by Embracer Of Darkness »

SPOOFE wrote:I already pointed out how it would be nigh impossible for the Krenim ship to find a "suitable targe". It could barely calculate a temporal incursion with only three centuries' worth of data to work from... imagine having to do so with three HUNDRED centuries worth.
In short, it can't do it.
Someone made a good knife analogy above, what about if this was the case? And the Krenim ship didn't *need* a target?
SPOOFE wrote:At worst, the Krenim ship will be a nuisance.
Yes, a nuisance that can't be shot at. :twisted:
SPOOFE wrote:"I sense a disturbance, my master."
"As do I, Lord Vader. Pardon me a second..."
::Palpatine closes his eyes. A few seconds later, Annorax dies, and his entire crew goes home, rejoicing at the prospect of being freed from his insane obsession::
"No more disturbance. Now, Lord Vader, bring me some nachos..."
Would these abilities work on someone shielded from time? Wait, not only was Annorax, his crew AND his ship shielded from time but technically seperated from it... Even better. :twisted:
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22637
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Post by Dalton »

The argument is moot since the ship never existed. If you want to play, fine...but remember that.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
SPOOFE
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:34pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Contact:

Post by SPOOFE »

The reason it needed to perform careful calculations was that it needed to RESTORE a civilization. To DESTROY one, all one needs is to find and nuke their Homeworld.
Not that simple. They can't just pick a random planet and destroy it... they need to find a target to destroy that will both cause the Empire to be unmade and, at the same time, ensure that the Old Republic (or something even MORE powerful than the Empire) doesn't take its place.
Someone made a good knife analogy above, what about if this was the case?
To continue the knife analogy... you can't just stab a person ANYwhere. You need to make sure you get 'im on the first thrust... otherwise, if you just graze him in the leg or something, he's gonna whirl around, fueld by adrenaline, and blow your brains out.
Yes, a nuisance that can't be shot at.
Which just means unconventional means will be needed. Hence, Force powers. I call the timeship a "nuisance" because it can probably eliminate some juicy targets before everyone realizes just what level of threat it represents... and THEN the mystical mumbo-jumbo starts a-flyin'.
Would these abilities work on someone shielded from time? Wait, not only was Annorax, his crew AND his ship shielded from time but technically seperated from it... Even better.
Why not? The Force is independent of time.
The Great and Malignant
User avatar
Sir Sirius
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2975
Joined: 2002-12-09 12:15pm
Location: 6 hr 45 min R.A. and -16 degrees 43 minutes declination

Post by Sir Sirius »

SPOOFE wrote:
The reason it needed to perform careful calculations was that it needed to RESTORE a civilization. To DESTROY one, all one needs is to find and nuke their Homeworld.
Not that simple. They can't just pick a random planet and destroy it... they need to find a target to destroy that will both cause the Empire to be unmade and, at the same time, ensure that the Old Republic (or something even MORE powerful than the Empire) doesn't take its place.
Coruscant should suffice. Finding the capital planet of the Empire shouldn't be much of a problem.
Image
User avatar
THEHOOLIGANJEDI
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2002-07-11 03:44pm
Location: Highland Park, New Jersey
Contact:

Post by THEHOOLIGANJEDI »

Col. Crackpot wrote:is it just me, or did anyone else have trouble taking the timeship captain seriously seeing that it was Red 'You're a dumbass' Foreman from That 70's Show? :lol:
At first I thought it was funny, but he was an excellent Villian in RoboCop. I hated him soo much in that movie. He was great in that episode. He also played the President in ST6:TUC
Image
Stupid risks are what make life worth living.-Homer Simpson

-PC Load Letter?! What the Fuck does that mean!?!?!- Micheal Bolton
-Bullshit! I'll bet you can suck a golf ball through a garden hose! - Sgt. Hartman
-I'll bet your the kind of guy who would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the Goddamn common courtesy to give him a reacharound!- Sgt. Hartman
User avatar
HappyTarget
Padawan Learner
Posts: 439
Joined: 2003-01-29 08:24pm
Location: Michigan USA
Contact:

Post by HappyTarget »

To continue the knife analogy... you can't just stab a person ANYwhere. You need to make sure you get 'im on the first thrust... otherwise, if you just graze him in the leg or something, he's gonna whirl around, fueld by adrenaline, and blow your brains out.
That works with something that can be detected and attacked with a gun. The time ship cannot be neither detected nor attacked with conventional means.
Which just means unconventional means will be needed. Hence, Force powers. I call the timeship a "nuisance" because it can probably eliminate some juicy targets before everyone realizes just what level of threat it represents... and THEN the mystical mumbo-jumbo starts a-flyin'.
But can the force affect something that is apart from time? I can see forseeing the destruction of a world from time, but can the force affect the timeship in its apart from time state and would a force user remember the cause of the event after the timeline changed? Wouldn't the new, revised timeline become the norm?

Say Palpentine saw the destruction of Courisant and evacuated for safety, then assembled the fleet there to defend it. Courisant gets erased from time, so even if there is still a palpentine afterward, would he even remember that in a different timeline, Courisant was a capital of an empire?
Why not? The Force is independent of time.
Force users aren't, and I don't think they can reach through time to kill someone in the past/future with the force. And that isn't even reaching beyond time like they will have to do to harm the Krenim ship.
About that comet. The reason they thought about erasing it was it diverted Voyager from their planned course.

How large are the biggest known comets? How large could they theoretically be.

Most importantly, how much would Voyager need to divert their course to avoid it? I'm guessing a few thousand km absolute tops.
Did they say that Voyager diverted their course to avoid it or towards it? My memory is a little fuzzy on this point. Going towards it seems more likley because that's what they do, go and check out every little thing that catches their interest instead of trying to stay on course as much as possible.
More proof that it was a delusion. Since when is an action performed with a single comet going to wipe out several species, unless all of those species happen to live in the same place?
Or it could be that the comet gave life to one species, who in turn bioengineered some others and set them up on other worlds. Or perhaps the comet gave life to one species, which in turn guarded some others from outside destruction. Without the first species, the others would be SOL. While a bit of a stretch it is concievable that a lone comet could have drastic effects on quite a few starsystems.
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Eleas »

Yogi wrote:The reason it needed to perform careful calculations was that it needed to RESTORE a civilization. To DESTROY one, all one needs is to find and nuke their Homeworld. The problem would be that they would actually need to travel TO the homeworld, which could require a long time.
If you have a knife and need to help a person by removing a growth, carefull precision and calculation is required. If you want to KILL the person, just stab away!
And what homeworld are you going to work from? AFAIK nobody in the SW galaxy is sure where humanity originated. If you want to erase the first working hyperdrive (which is your best bet to retard civilisation) then maybe you should try to kill off the Duro, but they are a spacefaring civilisation. Killing their homeworld would not solve the problem.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Eleas »

HappyTarget wrote: But can the force affect something that is apart from time?
The ship is clearly not "apart" from time in the sense that it isn't there. It is clearly interacting with the timestream, or it would neither be able to see nor affect it.
I can see forseeing the destruction of a world from time, but can the force affect the timeship in its apart from time state and would a force user remember the cause of the event after the timeline changed? Wouldn't the new, revised timeline become the norm?
It would. However, weaker Force users than Palpatine have been able to control entire ship's crews earlier. If, for some reason, that failed to work, Palpatine could unleash a Force Storm within the vessel.
Palpatine wrote:Standing watch with my mind, in my meditation of Anger, I have slain my enemies from great distances, through the Dark Side Power that permeates the Galaxy. I have created lightning, and unleashed its destructive fire.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.
Joruus C'Baoth took control of a Carrack Cruiser at a distance of several light years, overshadowing the will of the crewmembers completely. Palpatine outstrips him by far.
Say Palpentine saw the destruction of Courisant and evacuated for safety, then assembled the fleet there to defend it.
Why would he assemble a fleet? This isn't Trek. He would see the disturbance of history, not the destruction of Coruscant. He wouldn't assume an attack on the planet itself.
Courisant gets erased from time, so even if there is still a palpentine afterward, would he even remember that in a different timeline, Courisant was a capital of an empire?
How would you go about erasing Coruscant, exactly?
Force users aren't, and I don't think they can reach through time to kill someone in the past/future with the force. And that isn't even reaching beyond time like they will have to do to harm the Krenim ship.
Proof?

<snip>
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
User avatar
HappyTarget
Padawan Learner
Posts: 439
Joined: 2003-01-29 08:24pm
Location: Michigan USA
Contact:

Post by HappyTarget »

Proof?
What, that force users can't reach through time to kill people or that they can't reach outside of time to kill people? Cuz as far as I know neither has ever been done in Star Wars. If you have proof that it has been I'll be delighted to hear it and change my position.
Why would he assemble a fleet? This isn't Trek. He would see the disturbance of history, not the destruction of Coruscant. He wouldn't assume an attack on the planet itself.
So he would see a disturbance in history, not know the source and forget about it like the rest of the galaxy after it occured?

Why wouldn't he see Couriscant destroyed? He forsaw Luke going to Endor and the destruction of the Rebel fleet at Endor, so why is seeing the destruction of Couriscant so out of the realm of possibility? And seeing its destruction, why wouldn't he bring in a fleet to try and stop those behind it from succeeding?
Joruus C'Baoth took control of a Carrack Cruiser at a distance of several light years, overshadowing the will of the crewmembers completely. Palpatine outstrips him by far.
Proof that the Force moves FTL across several light years but not that it affects things backwards and forwards through time.
It would. However, weaker Force users than Palpatine have been able to control entire ship's crews earlier. If, for some reason, that failed to work, Palpatine could unleash a Force Storm within the vessel.
Again, you have yet to prove that force users can affect things forwords and backwards through time, let alone affect things that are merely tweaking the timestream but are apart from it. So while Palpentine could unleash a force storm inside a vessel that he could interact with, you have yet to prove that he could interact with a temporally shielded Time Ship.
The ship is clearly not "apart" from time in the sense that it isn't there. It is clearly interacting with the timestream, or it would neither be able to see nor affect it.
Time lost all meaning on the Time Ship, and due to its temporal shielding it was immune to all conventional weapons. It was clearly not affected by the passage of time and events occuring in the rest of the universe, yet could see and affect it.
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Eleas »

HappyTarget wrote:
Proof?
What, that force users can't reach through time to kill people or that they can't reach outside of time to kill people? Cuz as far as I know neither has ever been done in Star Wars. If you have proof that it has been I'll be delighted to hear it and change my position.
No, proof that they have to reach "through time"?
Why would he assemble a fleet? This isn't Trek. He would see the disturbance of history, not the destruction of Coruscant. He wouldn't assume an attack on the planet itself.
So he would see a disturbance in history, not know the source and forget about it like the rest of the galaxy after it occured?
No, he would see a potential disturbance in history, and stop the event before it was set into motion. And you still haven't explained how he's supposed to destroy Coruscant.
Why wouldn't he see Couriscant destroyed? He forsaw Luke going to Endor and the destruction of the Rebel fleet at Endor, so why is seeing the destruction of Couriscant so out of the realm of possibility? And seeing its destruction, why wouldn't he bring in a fleet to try and stop those behind it from succeeding?
Of course he would see the destruction of Coruscant, if it would happen. But if Coruscant was destroyed by temporal tinkering rather than, say, an explosion, he would not assail the timeship with a simple fleet. The Dark Side does not teach to oblige the enemy by giving him a battle he can win.
Joruus C'Baoth took control of a Carrack Cruiser at a distance of several light years, overshadowing the will of the crewmembers completely. Palpatine outstrips him by far.
Proof that the Force moves FTL across several light years but not that it affects things backwards and forwards through time.
True, but it doesn't have to.
It would. However, weaker Force users than Palpatine have been able to control entire ship's crews earlier. If, for some reason, that failed to work, Palpatine could unleash a Force Storm within the vessel.
Again, you have yet to prove that force users can affect things forwords and backwards through time, let alone affect things that are merely tweaking the timestream but are apart from it.
Sorry. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that the Krenim ship exists outside of time.
So while Palpentine could unleash a force storm inside a vessel that he could interact with, you have yet to prove that he could interact with a temporally shielded Time Ship.
Newsflash. If I can see something, then that something is interacting with the universe. Ergo, if I see it, it's there.
The ship is clearly not "apart" from time in the sense that it isn't there. It is clearly interacting with the timestream, or it would neither be able to see nor affect it.
Time lost all meaning on the Time Ship, and due to its temporal shielding it was immune to all conventional weapons. It was clearly not affected by the passage of time and events occuring in the rest of the universe, yet could see and affect it.
Clearly? Time had all meaning on the Time Ship; it was the reason it was built in the first place. I asked for proof, not mindless recitations of unquantified abilities. If the timeship can percieve events around the ship, it is affected by them. This is axiomatic.

So, again I ask you: please provide proof that the Time Ship is "apart" from the time stream. A clear quantification of exactly what that means would be a good place to start.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
User avatar
SPOOFE
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:34pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Contact:

Post by SPOOFE »

Coruscant should suffice. Finding the capital planet of the Empire shouldn't be much of a problem.
Wouldn't do any good. Remember, Coruscant itself is useless. If it were erased from time, then, tens of thousands of years ago, the groups that started the Old Republic would have settled on some other random world, and things would have progressed much the same as they have.
That works with something that can be detected and attacked with a gun. The time ship cannot be neither detected nor attacked with conventional means.
I already pointed out unconventional means by which it can be attacked.
But can the force affect something that is apart from time?
Yes. The Force is not constrained by Time.
I can see forseeing the destruction of a world from time, but can the force affect the timeship in its apart from time state and would a force user remember the cause of the event after the timeline changed?
There were other species that were aware of the menace that the Timeship represented (that helped Voyager destroy it). So, yes.
Force users aren't
So? Annorax and his men aren't independent of time. Their ship is. So what?
The Great and Malignant
Embracer Of Darkness
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 1065
Joined: 2003-01-26 01:08pm
Location: paul.barlow@embracerofdarkness.co.uk

Post by Embracer Of Darkness »

Eleas, he already stated (with on-screen evidence) that the Temporal-Weapon Ship is *outside* time... Just accept it, you're being stubborn.

You said the burden of proof is upon him to prove that the ship exists outside time but the burden of proof is also apparently on you to prove that Force users can do so *through* time.

:wink:
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

So the fact that all Jedi have an innate Pre-Cog proves the Force has no affect on time....riiiiiiiight :roll:
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Eleas »

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Eleas, he already stated (with on-screen evidence) that the Temporal-Weapon Ship is *outside* time... Just accept it, you're being stubborn.
Yep, "stubborn" is the word. Not to mention "correct". Some day, you might be too. Fortunately, that day isn't today.
You said the burden of proof is upon him to prove that the ship exists outside time but the burden of proof is also apparently on you to prove that Force users can do so *through* time.

:wink:
Aww, now isn't that cute. The wannabe troll, dazed and confused when he's flamed, now on a desperate crusade to get a rise out of his arch-nemesis. I never knew I was so important to anyone.

Pity you lost all right to debate anyone on this board when you decided to throw your credibility out the window. You could almost be the next Scooter. All you need is to polish those polysyllables a bit more.

Oh, and "polysyllable" means "really long word", Sparky.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Eleas, he already stated (with on-screen evidence) that the Temporal-Weapon Ship is *outside* time... Just accept it, you're being stubborn.
If it was "outside time" nothing would ever occur on the ship since all actions REQUIRE time to perform them.

This whole "outside time" is simply meaningless technobabble nonsense to describe a ridiculous concept that makes absolutely zero sense in the first place. The most likely explanation is the whole "year of hell" was a giant delusion.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Typhonis 1
Rabid Monkey Scientist
Posts: 5791
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:07am
Location: deep within a secret cloning lab hidden in the brotherhood of the monkey thread

Post by Typhonis 1 »

Year of Hell Harrry Kims Bong explodes and everyone gets a whiff of it :lol:
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,

I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
User avatar
Shrykull
Jedi Master
Posts: 1270
Joined: 2002-07-05 09:11pm

Post by Shrykull »

Darth Servo wrote:
Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Eleas, he already stated (with on-screen evidence) that the Temporal-Weapon Ship is *outside* time... Just accept it, you're being stubborn.
If it was "outside time" nothing would ever occur on the ship since all actions REQUIRE time to perform them.
Not so, they had some of Annorex's wife hair who had been erased from time and the hair still existed, as well as some food from civilizations he had erased.
This whole "outside time" is simply meaningless technobabble nonsense to describe a ridiculous concept that makes absolutely zero sense in the first place.


And everything in Star Wars makes perfect sense? Try again.[/quote]
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

There are hundreds of thousands of parallel timelines in Trek (OBSERVED in TNG). It makes far more sense that he's simply moving back and forth between them, since that does not lead to the unsolvable paradoxes that this "outside time" bullshit generates.

Of course, that interpretation also means that the timeship is basically harmless, since it affects its local perception of reality but does not actually "erase" anything, so the Trekkies will naturally dismiss it. The fact that it actually makes more sense than their preferred interpretation is just an annoying noise they hear but do not acknowledge.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Post by Eframepilot »

Darth Wong wrote:There are hundreds of thousands of parallel timelines in Trek (OBSERVED in TNG). It makes far more sense that he's simply moving back and forth between them, since that does not lead to the unsolvable paradoxes that this "outside time" bullshit generates.

Of course, that interpretation also means that the timeship is basically harmless, since it affects its local perception of reality but does not actually "erase" anything, so the Trekkies will naturally dismiss it. The fact that it actually makes more sense than their preferred interpretation is just an annoying noise they hear but do not acknowledge.
Your theory of parallel timelines may make more sense, but it also completely ignores the purpose of the timeship and has no backing outside of your speculation. (The parallel "timelines" in "Parallels" were not caused by time travel but by the Many Worlds theory of QM.) When it comes to time travel, nothing makes sense. It's part of suspension of disbelief that time travel works the way the characters say it does, not how our fanwank (or antifanwank) explains it.

Look at Back to the Future or Terminator. You could apply your theory of parallel timelines to those movies as well. In fact, it's required to explain the paradoxes. But it completely eliminates the drama. Marty isn't fading out of existence, he's just being shunted to another timeline. The Skynet computer system is totally delusional and Ahnuld's missions (both of them) are pointless! We use suspension of disbelief to ignore the obvious paradoxes.

Hell, if we really go with theories that make the most sense and selectively enforce suspension of disbelief, where do we stop? The Star Wars universe contains asteroid belts with giant potatoes and rebel fleets that use huge tennis shoes as gunboats, if you look close enough. Their "lasers", whatever they are, don't fall ballistically in a gravitational field, unlike all known or predicted matter or energy (since space itself is curved). Isn't it more logical that Star Wars is just some dream of an autistic boy staring into a snow globe?
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Eleas »

Eframepilot wrote: Your theory of parallel timelines may make more sense, but it also completely ignores the purpose of the timeship and has no backing outside of your speculation. (The parallel "timelines" in "Parallels" were not caused by time travel but by the Many Worlds theory of QM.) When it comes to time travel, nothing makes sense. It's part of suspension of disbelief that time travel works the way the characters say it does, not how our fanwank (or antifanwank) explains it.
That's convenient, isn't it? "It's part of suspension of disbelief that time travel works the way the characters say it does, not how our fanwank (or antifanwank) explains it." The timeship was built by a madman, not a stable person. In essence, what you're arguing is your usual nonsense about dialogue overriding visuals. Some things just stay the same, don't they?
Look at Back to the Future or Terminator. You could apply your theory of parallel timelines to those movies as well. In fact, it's required to explain the paradoxes.
...but gee, we're not debating those movies, we're - *gasp* - debating Star Wars and Star Trek. Imagine that!
But it completely eliminates the drama. Marty isn't fading out of existence, he's just being shunted to another timeline. The Skynet computer system is totally delusional and Ahnuld's missions (both of them) are pointless! We use suspension of disbelief to ignore the obvious paradoxes.
Drama is irrelevant. We are the VS debaters. Red herrings are futile.
Hell, if we really go with theories that make the most sense and selectively enforce suspension of disbelief, where do we stop? The Star Wars universe contains asteroid belts with giant potatoes and rebel fleets that use huge tennis shoes as gunboats, if you look close enough.
No, actually, they don't. We don't selectively use suspension of disbelief when we see a ship onscreen, because said ship doesn't violate any known principles of physics. There's no competing theory that explains the phenomena better than this. With the time travel example, however, there IS a competing theory, a better one: ours. Predictably, instead of coming up with a better theory, you try to poke holes in ours. Why am I not surprised?
Their "lasers", whatever they are, don't fall ballistically in a gravitational field, unlike all known or predicted matter or energy (since space itself is curved).
We never see a situation in the movies where that should happen, oh dishonest one. But don't let that stop you; it never has before.
Isn't it more logical that Star Wars is just some dream of an autistic boy staring into a snow globe?
I see you finally managed to describe your definition of logic. Thank you.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Post by Eframepilot »

Eleas wrote:That's convenient, isn't it? "It's part of suspension of disbelief that time travel works the way the characters say it does, not how our fanwank (or antifanwank) explains it." The timeship was built by a madman, not a stable person. In essence, what you're arguing is your usual nonsense about dialogue overriding visuals. Some things just stay the same, don't they?
It's also pretty convenient how your "theory" invalidates all uses of time travel, one advantage Trek has that Wars can't possibly counter. And how EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who actually deals with time travel (this includes Q, who really should know) believes that history CAN be changed in some way.
No, actually, they don't. We don't selectively use suspension of disbelief when we see a ship onscreen, because said ship doesn't violate any known principles of physics. There's no competing theory that explains the phenomena better than this. With the time travel example, however, there IS a competing theory, a better one: ours. Predictably, instead of coming up with a better theory, you try to poke holes in ours. Why am I not surprised?
All right, here's a theory. When someone makes a change in time, their future ceases to exist and is replaced by a new one, a la Borg Earth in ST:FC. The previous timeline does not exist anymore, anywhere. The traveler does still exist in the new timeline; they just have no traceable point of origin. Basically, this theory is the same as yours except that the old timeline doesn't continue to exist. The traveler is causally disconnected from the new timeline; from a native's point of view, he appeared from nowhere. But this also is the case in the multi-timeline theory. In addition to agreeing with every character's evaluation, my theory has the bonus of not creating entire universes out of nothing every time someone makes a change in the past.
We never see a situation in the movies where that should happen, oh dishonest one.
:roll: I was referring to the bolts fired at the Tantive IV above Tatooine. IIRC, Darth Wong has noted that they should be curving downward due to gravity (mass is irrelevant as all matter falls at the same rate). This totally violates all known theories of gravity. However this is a bit of a red herring and I concede it isn't directly relevant.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Eframepilot wrote:It's also pretty convenient how your "theory" invalidates all uses of time travel, one advantage Trek has that Wars can't possibly counter.
Appeal to motive fallacy. You admit that it makes sense, so you attack what you perceive as the underlying motive. Please try to restrict yourself to LOGICAL arguments rather than sophistic bullshit.
And how EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who actually deals with time travel (this includes Q, who really should know) believes that history CAN be changed in some way.
You know what Q believes? That's amazing; and all along, I thought he was an inscrutable character who was always bullshitting people and playing them for laughs. But noooooo, you can figure out what he's THINKING! Remarkable.
All right, here's a theory. When someone makes a change in time, their future ceases to exist and is replaced by a new one, a la Borg Earth in ST:FC. The previous timeline does not exist anymore, anywhere.
Thus leading to the infamous grandfather paradox. Your theory generates paradoxes. Ours doesn't, and it even has the benefit of being supported by canon observation. Your only retort is subjective impressions of what you think certain characters might be thinking :roll:
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Eframepilot
Jedi Master
Posts: 1007
Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am

Post by Eframepilot »

Darth Wong wrote:Appeal to motive fallacy. You admit that it makes sense, so you attack what you perceive as the underlying motive. Please try to restrict yourself to LOGICAL arguments rather than sophistic bullshit.
Sorry. I tried to treat time travel, and the paradoxes resulting thereof, as a suspension of disbelief issue. I suggest that we take time travel as it appears and not fanwank it into avoiding what we call paradoxes.
You know what Q believes? That's amazing; and all along, I thought he was an inscrutable character who was always bullshitting people and playing them for laughs. But noooooo, you can figure out what he's THINKING! Remarkable.
Being omnipotent and omniscient myself, I find him easy to relate to. But there IS the slight chance that every time he implies time is mutable, he's really laughing at the foolish Starfleet captains. Point conceded.
Thus leading to the infamous grandfather paradox. Your theory generates paradoxes. Ours doesn't, and it even has the benefit of being supported by canon observation. Your only retort is subjective impressions of what you think certain characters might be thinking :roll:
There's that word again. Paradox. But what is the grandfather paradox? Consider: Joe Bob travels back 50 years to kill his grandfather, Billy Bob, before his father's conception. Joe Bob succeeds, apparently negating his own existence. How did he travel back in the first place.

Both of our theories avoid the paradox. According to you, Joe Bob's travel creates a new timeline where his grandpatricide occurs; he will continue to live his life there. According to me, Joe Bob's travel and subsequent actions erase his own timeline and replace it with a new one. A historian in the "new" timeline both of our theories would note that Joe Bob seemingly appeared out of nowhere.

The end result is that my theory requires Joe Bob to "appear out of nowhere" and your theory requires an entire universe to appear for Joe Bob to land in. Clearly my theory is simpler. My theory agrees with the judgements of every character in Trek familiar with time travel. Your theory is circumstantially supported by "Parallels", which shows that universes do "appear out of nowhere", but in a process unrelated to time travel. Your theory also requires every character in Trek to be idiot savants who can master temporal physics beyond anything our current science predicts and yet totally miss the ramifications. All things considered, both theories are whacked, but mine describes what we see better. If you really find it so irritating that Captain Kirk could defeat the the Empire by slingshotting around Naboo's sun (assuming he could get there in the first place! :P ) and blasting Theed from orbit years before Palpatine is elected Supreme Chancellor, just declare time travel to be a cheap, stupid cop-out that is forbidden by the Temporal Prime Directive anyway and ignore it a la superbeing intervention.
Post Reply