Zipang - fleet-o-philes' paradise

[K. A. Pital]

Just noting that Zipang is one of the very few AH works in the film medium that I found entertaining just enough not to totally crush SoD. And that's saying a lot.

However, the technical bits are hard to grasp even for me. Can you really shoot down that many ballistic shells with missiles, like they did when facing bombardment?

Also, is it really possible for such a modern ship to miss submarines of the WWII era with it's acoustics?

Also, if anyone knows, what happens in the Zipang manga after where the anime leaves off? Is it a worthy read, or does it degenerate?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

It is a common argument, valid in itself, by battleship advocates that shells cannot be intercepted by existing defences. This is only one of several mistakes made by Zipang with regard to modern naval warfare, another being its use of a tomahawk missile to sink the USS Wasp, unless one counts the one-off anti-ship variant that was never used.

As to whether a modern ship could miss a WW2 submarine, it depends. Despite what the US navy might claim, modern diesel subs can be highly effective. They use pretty much the same technology as nuclear subs, only losing out in terms of endurance underwater (they can't circumnavigate the globe underwater without refueling). A modern diesel sub is can avoid detection by switching off its engine and sitting on the bottom, whereas a nuclear sub would still be making noise (you can't just shut down a nuclear reactor), though efforts have been made to remedy this in recent designs.
Thus, whether a WW2 sub could avoid a modern ship depends on a variety of factors. It would depend on the exact conditions, what the sub was doing, and the quality of the crew.

[phongn]

It is a common argument, valid in itself, by battleship advocates that shells cannot be intercepted by existing defences. This is only one of several mistakes made by Zipang with regard to modern naval warfare, another being its use of a tomahawk missile to sink the USS Wasp, unless one counts the one-off anti-ship variant that was never used.

TASM was never fired in anger but it was deployed (and eventually removed from service due to over-the-horizon targeting problems). It's not particularly problematic to assume that this alternative-Japan had access to such weapons (other than various East Asian nations being unhappy about Japan getting Tomahawk-anything).

As to whether a modern ship could miss a WW2 submarine, it depends. Despite what the US navy might claim, modern diesel subs can be highly effective. They use pretty much the same technology as nuclear subs, only losing out in terms of endurance underwater (they can't circumnavigate the globe underwater without refueling). A modern diesel sub is can avoid detection by switching off its engine and sitting on the bottom, whereas a nuclear sub would still be making noise (you can't just shut down a nuclear reactor), though efforts have been made to remedy this in recent designs.

Modern diesel subs are highly effective as mobile minefields but lack blue-water capability, which is what the USN tends to regard as its playground. Outside of confined exercise spaces, it's unlikely that an SSK would be able to engage a carrier group at speed unless said carrier group went right over the submarine (which could happen!) As for reactors, not all have pump noise, and efforts to quiet the ones that do have been not just the product of "recent design" efforts but decades of work.

Thus, whether a WW2 sub could avoid a modern ship depends on a variety of factors. It would depend on the exact conditions, what the sub was doing, and the quality of the crew.

There's also other voodoo like the inversion layer, etc. that makes ASW such a black art.

[Stark]

The situation in the manga was pretty unusual with regards the submarine though; it wasn't known to be hostile and was already close when it submerged.

[K. A. Pital]

No, the use of Tomahawk was perfectly fine in my view - it's some sort of future Japan anyway which has aquired the weapon, so making an anti-ship version is not a problem at all.

But is interception of shells really impossible, and why, if so?

[phongn]

But is interception of shells really impossible, and why, if so?

It's not impossible.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I believe there was a test to use a laser to intercept mortar rounds, so I don't see why it is impossible to use a laser to intercept shells. Of course, no such laser has been actually deployed on a mass scale beyond a prototype.

[phongn]

I believe there was a test to use a laser to intercept mortar rounds, so I don't see why it is impossible to use a laser to intercept shells. Of course, no such laser has been actually deployed on a mass scale beyond a prototype.

THEL can hit artillery as well (blow a hole in the nose, let aerodynamic stress do the rest). Supposed Sea Wolf has also intercepted shells.

[K. A. Pital]

It's not impossible.

I meant with stuff currently used as ordnance (SM2, ESSM).

[phongn]

It's not impossible.

I meant with stuff currently used as ordnance (SM2, ESSM).

There really shouldn't be much difference - predict path of the shell, fire missile to intercept point. It's pretty much a function of reaction time, really, and the rather poor cost-benefit of using a million-dollar missile to hit a shell

[Samuel]

...
They join up with Imperial Japan. A group with almost as much blood on its hands as Naxi Germany. I can't see the Bundeswehr working for Hitler except in 45 on the Eastern Front- why do the Japanese act differently?

[K. A. Pital]

I can't see the Bundeswehr working with Hitler period, but Japan is different.

1) Modern Germany underwent a colossal program of denazification in both West and East. Even if that program was somewhat stalled due to the Cold War, it's impact on the popular opinion was immense. A German Bundeswehr or Bundesmarine people are more likely to help any Allied nation in vinicity than Germany, were they thrown back.

2) Japan did not undergo "de-Japanization" in the same fashion as Germany. Moreover, the impact of the Atomic bombings far eclipses the impression of Japanese atrocities by the IJA in China and Korea (since that's the place where Japan behaved like Nazi Germany). The modern Japanese is anti-war due to the horrors of war Japan itself was subdued to (firebombing, atomic bombing), not due to the fact Japan inflicted suffering on the Chinese.

In fact, the Japanese public opinion isn't that aware of the scale of atrocities against the Chinese. If you and I know that the IJA was so bad there that it was only eclipsed by the Germans in Eastern Europe in sheer ruthlessness and bodycounts (dozens of millions likewise), that doesn't mean the average Japanese knows that, or fully understands the implications.

3) They don't "join" with Imperial Japan but break into factions, some want Japan to be defeated, others want to end the war in some fashion to save the most lives (especially to prevent the heavy bombing of Japan in the late-war period)... it's more complex than that.

[Pelranius]

I wonder where I could find a more complete summary of the whole Zipang anime. Read a bit about it in Wikipedia. Or maybe I should just buy the DVD.

The Phalanx probably could be monkeyed around with to intercept shells, but it seems like it would be more cost effective to order a SM-3 to shoot up the hostile warships shelling you.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In fact, the Japanese public opinion isn't that aware of the scale of atrocities against the Chinese. If you and I know that the IJA was so bad there that it was only eclipsed by the Germans in Eastern Europe in sheer ruthlessness and bodycounts (dozens of millions likewise), that doesn't mean the average Japanese knows that, or fully understands the implications.

They just fired an unrepentant Air Force Chief who wrote an extremely nationalist essay, white washing Japanese misdeeds in WW2. *mutters curses*

[ray245]

In fact, the Japanese public opinion isn't that aware of the scale of atrocities against the Chinese. If you and I know that the IJA was so bad there that it was only eclipsed by the Germans in Eastern Europe in sheer ruthlessness and bodycounts (dozens of millions likewise), that doesn't mean the average Japanese knows that, or fully understands the implications.

They just fired an unrepentant Air Force Chief who wrote an extremely nationalist essay, white washing Japanese misdeeds in WW2. *mutters curses*

I thought that he was quite admired for his essay among a number of people?

[AniThyng]

I wonder where I could find a more complete summary of the whole Zipang anime. Read a bit about it in Wikipedia. Or maybe I should just buy the DVD.

The Phalanx probably could be monkeyed around with to intercept shells, but it seems like it would be more cost effective to order a SM-3 to shoot up the hostile warships shelling you.

In the anime they were using the SM-2's to intercept the Yamato's 18in shells to persuade it to break off bombarding the American airfield at Guadacanal.

[AniThyng]

In fact, the Japanese public opinion isn't that aware of the scale of atrocities against the Chinese. If you and I know that the IJA was so bad there that it was only eclipsed by the Germans in Eastern Europe in sheer ruthlessness and bodycounts (dozens of millions likewise), that doesn't mean the average Japanese knows that, or fully understands the implications.

They just fired an unrepentant Air Force Chief who wrote an extremely nationalist essay, white washing Japanese misdeeds in WW2. *mutters curses*

I thought that he was quite admired for his essay among a number of people?

That he was quite admired is the problem, that he got fired is good, but not quite good enough since the man and his opinions and his supporters still exist in society.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That he was quite admired is the problem, that he got fired is good, but not quite good enough since the man and his opinions and his supporters still exist in society.

What disturbs me most is that it was an air force chief, which immediately implies that the chain of command in the JSDF itself is tainted with this crap.

[Samuel]

1) Modern Germany underwent a colossal program of denazification in both West and East. Even if that program was somewhat stalled due to the Cold War, it's impact on the popular opinion was immense. A German Bundeswehr or Bundesmarine people are more likely to help any Allied nation in vinicity than Germany, were they thrown back.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=130523

[Stark]

Samuel, have you seen the show? The whole point is that they're from a future, peaceful and wealthy Japan thrust back into an ultra-nationalist expansionist period that has to be destroyed for their Japan to exist. It's a nearly a fascinating exploration of how people would react when they have to LET THEIR COUNTRY GET NUKED so that it can have a positive future. It's NOT 'lol let's rape some chinese' at all. The conflict between their modern sensibilities and the lure of nationalist identification is central to the show.

[K. A. Pital]

Indeed. The show is far from "well, Japan wankotech kilz stupid Americans". It's about people from a modern world who are trying to - gasp! - minimize the amount of dead and suffering in the war, no wonder they may have different ideas about it. This intention throws them to aid the Japanese, or make them back off, sporadically, and there is a conflict between saving the lives of your nationals and propping up the victory of Imperial Japan. Hell, even Kusaka with his whole idea of "Zipang" is not a cartoon villain and what he strives to accomplish is not "Japan wins uber!" but transform Japan into a different nation than IJ of reality and the defeated Japan of the future - and he's the antagonist in the series.

[TempestSong]

I'm only halfway through the Zipang anime, but I heard it ended with, well, no ending at all. Is there an official English translation of the manga out there?

[Samuel]

Indeed. The show is far from "well, Japan wankotech kilz stupid Americans". It's about people from a modern world who are trying to - gasp! - minimize the amount of dead and suffering in the war, no wonder they may have different ideas about it. This intention throws them to aid the Japanese, or make them back off, sporadically, and there is a conflict between saving the lives of your nationals and propping up the victory of Imperial Japan. Hell, even Kusaka with his whole idea of "Zipang" is not a cartoon villain and what he strives to accomplish is not "Japan wins uber!" but transform Japan into a different nation than IJ of reality and the defeated Japan of the future - and he's the antagonist in the series.

No Stark, I haven't seen it. I am incompetant when it comes to procuring anime.

Except they can't win. Japan will lose to the United States. The plan is to get the Americans to sign a peace agreement... which the US has no reason to agree to. Their actions just make things worse- the longer the war goes on, the more horrific the suffering on the home front becomes and the more people they lose.

To be fair, they probably don't realize it.

[Darksider]

No Stark, I haven't seen it. I am incompetant when it comes to procuring anime.

Except they can't win. Japan will lose to the United States. The plan is to get the Americans to sign a peace agreement... which the US has no reason to agree to. Their actions just make things worse- the longer the war goes on, the more horrific the suffering on the home front becomes and the more people they lose.

To be fair, they probably don't realize it.

This is an excellent point.

What happens if they delay the U.S. fleet advance for a year or two? Won't that mean that the U.S. will be able to start the strategic bombing of the home islands with a fully equipped production facility for atomic bombs? This guy's "Zipang" land isn't going to be anything but an irradiated wasteland.
And why are they bitching about the modern japan they come from anyways? it's not like japan has it that bad, their economy is doing good, and even the two cities that got nuked would have been fully rebuilt by the time that the destroyer got sent back.

[AniThyng]

And why are they bitching about the modern japan they come from anyways? it's not like japan has it that bad, their economy is doing good, and even the two cities that got nuked would have been fully rebuilt by the time that the destroyer got sent back.

I think this really is an issue with any time travel story - let's take the infamous Final Countdown movie for example - why bother saving Pearl Harbour? America's doing just fine with Pearl as a rallying cry, and even if the entire 1941 pacific fleet was wiped out, it'll be stronger then ever in 1944 anyway...

In any case, the protaganist's own father gets run over by a car at 10 years old, so it's already branched off...