Transit police execute rider

[Alyeska]

Which, as I've already mentioned, is a standard method of defending their actions. If he's not defending them, then whether their actions were legal is immaterial to the discussion.

Have you been involved in this thread since the start? I thought not. So how the fuck do you know what KS is describing is immaterial to the discussion? GD, stop making strawman arguments and get with the picture.

[CmdrWilkens]

Their confiscation is almost certainly born at least partly of a desire to keep the footage out of the public eye. They are, after all, police officers, and have a conflict of interest when dealing with one of their own.

Except you have no basis, aside from assumption, that the confiscation is borne out of a desire to "keep the footage out of the public eye." You are making a statement in regards to motive of the officer but I can just about garuntee that you have no proof of the intent of the officers.

[Agent Fisher]

A couple responses to questions. On the piss test question, yes, anytime an officer discharges a weapon in the course of duty, they will be tested.

Now, to the question that Ender had on Tasers and draw policy. No, it is not standard policy for Tasers to be cross draw. There are many styles of holsters, from thigh holsters, to cross draw. I've even met officers, and also armed security guards who have a taser holster mounted on the belt with a thigh holster below that for their service weapon, or even a hip holster for their firearm and then a taser holster ontop of that.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Question on this: Isn't it standard policy for tasers to be cross-grab specifically to avoid the situation that the officer claims caused this? I know it is in a lot of places, what about California in general and ART in particular?

I believe most departments don't have a standard duty layout. The idea behind that is what works for you might not work for someone else so they want to allow flexibility. However, that being said I would like to see a a policy in effect nationwide that prevents officers from mounting their tasers in anyway that it might be confused with their service weapon.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Are you aware that the primary reason you are assumed to be supporting police brutality is that you continue to post this legalistic nonsense?

Yes, I'm aware that certain people get emotional when others offer factual information.

Nobody except police officers, lawyers, and other people with childlike ethical development consider whether something is legal to be a valid determiner of morality.

I wasn't discussing morality. Don't project on to me. If you want to open a discussion on morality then I recommend starting a new thread. Perhaps you could call it "Reasonable force in arrest and its morality" I don't know that's just off the top of my head.

This is an extremely common response by police and their supporters whenever a case of police brutality pops up. "Oh, it was legal/within policy, so its okay that Joey got shot/beat up/tasered."

The brutality portion of this debate is clearly not in policy. Are you fucking crazy? Why would you think it would be in policy to shoot a physically restrained prisoner in the back? Furthermore, excessive force is defined as unreasonable force used to effect an arrest or stop a threat.

Allowing the friends of a murderer to collect evidence and keep it out of the public eye is a clear conflict of interest to any rational person.

You're speculating that they're collecting it in order to remove it from the public eye. Given that they acted within the legal scope of the law it's also entirely possible that they were acting professionally and collecting it for proper documentation. Though again I will say it's also possible that they collected it to conceal it. Should I expect a formal concession from you if the video evidence collected makes it to trial?

[Kamakazie Sith]

First off my apologies for jumping down your throat.

I have thick skin. Don't sweat it...

Second a question. Does the average police officer, one who is not in his car but is on foot, carry on his person evidence receipts? I ask because if the police quickly starting confiscating cell phones it only becomes legal if they had the proper paperwork on them to record what was taken and from whom and to give receipts.

Property receipts provided by my department could fit in your front breast pocket. Think of them like post-its.

Maybe officers carry receipts and evidence bags on their person at all time. But form every description of the situation and the time frame between the shooting and the leaving train there does not appear to be any time for an officer to run down to a car to get receipts and bags.

Depends on the officer. If even one of them had a pad of property receipts then they are good to go.

Without that paperwork wouldnt all the phone and the images they contain become inadmissable in court? There would be no proper chain of custody and the cops (ex-cop now) would have them thrown out of court.

I really can't say for sure.

[CmdrWilkens]

Without that paperwork wouldnt all the phone and the images they contain become inadmissable in court? There would be no proper chain of custody and the cops (ex-cop now) would have them thrown out of court.

I really can't say for sure.

We an almost certainly guess that an argument would be made for declaring the evidence inadmissable and, likely as not, this would be grounds for appeal and possibly a ruling from a superior court in terms of this. That being said I think the prosecution argument would be that the officers engaged in a legal seizure or at least a good faith seizure.

[Alyrium Denryle]

We an almost certainly guess that an argument would be made for declaring the evidence inadmissable and, likely as not, this would be grounds for appeal and possibly a ruling from a superior court in terms of this. That being said I think the prosecution argument would be that the officers engaged in a legal seizure or at least a good faith seizure.

If the data is still there, one could argue that the police would not have standing to challenge the seizure. Their rights were not the ones whos rights were violated, the bus passengers were. The legality of the search at that point is irrelevant. What is relevant is if the data is there, or if the items are ever even produced.

[Stormin]

Wouldn't interfering with the investigation also be tacked onto the other charges?

[CorSec]

An update on the situation:

Ex-Oakland transit officer is arrested in Nevada

By TERRY COLLINS – 1 hour ago Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — A white former transit police officer accused of killing an unarmed black man on an Oakland train platform has been arrested in Nevada on a warrant charging homicide, 12 days after the shooting that sparked violent street protests.

Johannes Mehserle, 27, was being held without bail Wednesday under a fugitive warrant issued from California, law enforcement officials said. Mehserle surrendered Tuesday without incident, according to a statement from the Douglas County Sheriff's Office in Nevada.

Messages left late Tuesday and early Wednesday at the office of Mehserle's attorney, Christopher Miller, were not immediately returned.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the charges later Wednesday.

Witnesses say Mehserle fired into the back of 22-year-old Oscar Grant while the man was lying facedown on a train platform at a station in Oakland. Grant and others had been pulled off a train after reports of fighting, as New Year's Eve revelers were shuttling home after midnight.

The shooting, captured on cell phone cameras and widely viewed on the Internet, has inflamed long-running tensions between law enforcement authorities and many African-American residents and black community leaders, who have berated BART officials at several public meetings since the incident.

Hundreds of protesters also have taken to the streets calling for the prosecution of Mehserle, with one rally last Wednesday spiraling into violence and resulting in more than 100 arrests and dozens of businesses damaged.

John Burris, the attorney for Grant's family, said he talked to Grant's mother, Wanda Johnson, on Tuesday night and she was delighted with the news of the arrest.

"However it does not bring her son back," Burris said. "But she is happy and pleased that an arrest has occurred."

Jack Bryson of Hayward, whose sons, Jackie, 21, and Nigel, 19, were with Grant when he was killed, said late Tuesday the family also happy that Mehserle was arrested. He said his sons and others friends with Grant that night remain traumatized from the shooting.

Bryson said he was with his oldest son when they got word about Mehserle's arrest via a text message.

"Jackie said, 'Dad they got (Mehserle)! They got him!'" said Bryson, who then called his youngest son, Nigel.

"He said, 'Are you for real?'" Bryson said. "He called me back and said, 'They did get him.'"

Dereca Blackmon, the co-founder of the Coalition Against Police Execution, which was organizing a protest Wednesday, said she was pleased Mehserle was arrested but still wanted to know more details, including for example, why he was in Nevada. Authorities have not disclosed those details.

"Honestly this situation brings more questions than answers," she said.

Douglas County, where the arrest occurred, is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes Lake Tahoe and Carson Valley.

Mehserle refused to talk to BART investigators before resigning his position last week. The transit authority passed on details of its internal investigation to Orloff's office on Monday. The case also is being investigated by the Oakland Police Department.

State Attorney General Jerry Brown has assigned a prosecutor to monitor the case, and the U.S. Department of Justice has dispatched mediators to help avert violent protests such as one in Oakland last week.

BART board member Carole Ward Allen said she was pleased to hear the news about the arrest.

"I want to know why he did it," she said. "We've heard from everybody else but him. While I can't speak for the entire BART board, we want to make this process as transparent as possible."

(This version CORRECTS the nature of arrest warrant to homicide, instead of murder, per the sheriff's office.)

Emphasis mine.

So, the BART officer is arrested in another state allegedly fleeing. I think the cherry on top of it all is he hasn't spoken to anyone in any official capacity concerning the events of that evening. I'm assuming that includes accepting his 5th amendment rights to not say anything but I can't be sure based on what little this and other articles say.

Outward appearances indicate things are progressing in a calm and legal manner.

[Coyote]

Interesting; I had no idea he was even missing/fled. The impression I had (admittedly I was not following this case) was that he was holed up in his house or something and keeping quiet-- I assumed on the advice of a lawyer.

[CmdrWilkens]

Interesting; I had no idea he was even missing/fled. The impression I had (admittedly I was not following this case) was that he was holed up in his house or something and keeping quiet-- I assumed on the advice of a lawyer.

Honestly I wouldn't be suprised if his attorney advised him to be somewhere else and this is where he went. The fact that he surrendered to police (rather than being chased down and brought in) suggests that he wasn't fleeing. In his position I would be honestly fearful for my life from vigilante justice but getting out of state is what throws the question mark up. Douglas County isn't Vegas and it is, admittedly, a straight shot across US 50 or I-80 from the Bay Area...but its a 4 hour straight shot.

[Kanastrous]

Now it's a murder charge.

---

OAKLAND, Calif. - A murder charge was filed against a white ex-transit cop accused of shooting an unarmed black man at California train platform.

Johannes Mehserle, 27, was arrested in Nevada on a warrant charging homicide, 12 days after the shooting that sparked violent street protests.

Mehserle waived extradition to California during a brief court appearance early Wednesday in Minden, Nev., and was being held without bail. Officials said he’ll be returned to California no later than Friday.

Mehserle surrendered without incident Tuesday at a family friend’s house in an upscale neighborhood of Douglas County on the east shore of Lake Tahoe, law enforcement officials said. Officers had advised his attorney, Christopher Miller, that an arrest warrant had been issued.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the charges Wednesday afternoon.

Miller planned a news conference at his office in Sacramento.

Witnesses say Mehserle fired into the back of 22-year-old Oscar Grant while the man was lying face down on a station platform in Oakland. Grant and others had been pulled off a train after reports of fighting, as New Year’s Eve revelers were shuttling home after midnight.

The shooting, captured on cell phone cameras and widely viewed on the Internet, inflamed long-running tensions between law enforcement authorities and many African-American residents.

Hundreds of protesters have taken to the streets calling for the prosecution of Mehserle, with one rally last Wednesday spiraling into violence and resulting in more than 100 arrests and dozens of businesses damaged.

Another demonstration was planned Wednesday afternoon.

'He wasn't trying to run'

Douglas County, Nev., Undersheriff Paul Howell said he believes Mehserle went to Nevada for his own safety.

“He just wanted to get out of the Bay Area due to the magnitude of the incident,” Howell said. “He wasn’t trying to run.”

John Burris, the attorney for Grant’s family, said he talked to Grant’s mother, Wanda Johnson, on Tuesday and said she was “happy and pleased that an arrest has occurred.”

“However it does not bring her son back,” Burris said.

Jack Bryson of Hayward, whose sons, Jackie, 21, and Nigel, 19, were with Grant when he was killed, said his sons and other friends with Grant that night were traumatized by the shooting.

Bryson said he was with his oldest son when they got word about Mehserle’s arrest.

“Jackie said ’Dad they got (Mehserle)! They got him!”’ said Bryson.

Mehserle had refused to talk to BART investigators before resigning last week.

“I want to know why he did it,” said BART board member Carole Ward Allen. “We’ve heard from everybody else but him. While I can’t speak for the entire BART board, we want to make this process as transparent as possible.”

State Attorney General Jerry Brown assigned a prosecutor to monitor the case, and the U.S. Department of Justice sent mediators to help avert additional violent demonstrations.

Douglas County is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes Lake Tahoe and Carson Valley.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28650273/

[CmdrWilkens]

Now it's a murder charge.

---

OAKLAND, Calif. - A murder charge was filed against a white ex-transit cop accused of shooting an unarmed black man at California train platform.

Johannes Mehserle, 27, was arrested in Nevada on a warrant charging homicide, 12 days after the shooting that sparked violent street protests.

No the paper just decided that homicide=murder without bothering to comapre the difference in legal terms.

[Kanastrous]

Mmm.

Shame on me, for not reading more carefully.

[CmdrWilkens]

Mmm.

Shame on me, for not reading more carefully.

Honestly its much mroe the fault of the paper. Its hilarious to me (in a black humor sorta way) because the article CorSec quoted apparently had the same problem. Their end of article tag actually noted that theyhad to go back and re-write the article because they too had originally called it a murder instead of a homicide charge.

[Beowulf]

Admittedly, Tahoe is a good 4 hour drive. However, it's also a popular place to get away to for SF Bay residents. Once you get there, the only difference between being in CA and NV is that NV has casinos.

[Bilbo]

It is defnitely a murder charge:

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff made the rare decision to file a murder charge against a police officer for an on-duty incident.

"At this point, what I feel the evidence indicates, is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act and from the evidence we have there's nothing that would mitigate that to something lower than a murder," Orloff said at a news conference. He said he would not speculate on whether the charge would end up being first-degree murder or second-degree murder.

I find it very interesting that the DA really made sure that everyone knows he felt the action was intentional. So no matter what people may think from the videos the DA is not going for the "oops I grabbed my gun instead of my taser" idea.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It is defnitely a murder charge:

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff made the rare decision to file a murder charge against a police officer for an on-duty incident.

"At this point, what I feel the evidence indicates, is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act and from the evidence we have there's nothing that would mitigate that to something lower than a murder," Orloff said at a news conference. He said he would not speculate on whether the charge would end up being first-degree murder or second-degree murder.

I find it very interesting that the DA really made sure that everyone knows he felt the action was intentional. So no matter what people may think from the videos the DA is not going for the "oops I grabbed my gun instead of my taser" idea.

It's a bad idea though. Now he'll have to prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt. If he is unable to do so then this officer will get off the hook unpunished because the DA is trying to be tough. Under double jeopardy he can't be recharged with manslaughter if the murder charge falls through.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Maybe he's charging murder to get him to take a manslaughter plea.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Maybe he's charging murder to get him to take a manslaughter plea.

Very possible. I personally don't think it's very smart, but maybe there's some evidence(Perhaps evidence that was seized by the other BART officers ) that we haven't been made aware of. The video alone with his expression will make it pretty easy to show that he was surprised when the firearm discharged.

[CaptainChewbacca]

For it to be murder, they have to prove he intended to kill the guy when he reached for a weapon, right?

[Bilbo]

For it to be murder, they have to prove he intended to kill the guy when he reached for a weapon, right?

All you have to prove is that he pulled his gun on purpose. We already know he pulled the trigger on purpose and shooting someone at that range is pretty much a lethal shot.

[Kamakazie Sith]

For it to be murder, they have to prove he intended to kill the guy when he reached for a weapon, right?

Yes. It varies between states which made me think that could be why they're charging him with murder because they have a classification of murder where the mental state is recklessly or negligent, or maybe another possible legal statute that could exist in California law.

[Bilbo]

It is defnitely a murder charge:

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff made the rare decision to file a murder charge against a police officer for an on-duty incident.

"At this point, what I feel the evidence indicates, is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act and from the evidence we have there's nothing that would mitigate that to something lower than a murder," Orloff said at a news conference. He said he would not speculate on whether the charge would end up being first-degree murder or second-degree murder.

I find it very interesting that the DA really made sure that everyone knows he felt the action was intentional. So no matter what people may think from the videos the DA is not going for the "oops I grabbed my gun instead of my taser" idea.

It's a bad idea though. Now he'll have to prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt. If he is unable to do so then this officer will get off the hook unpunished because the DA is trying to be tough. Under double jeopardy he can't be recharged with manslaughter if the murder charge falls through.

Isnt it on the ex-cop and defense attorny to prove otherwise? We know he pulled his gun and shot the man in the back. Its the cop that will have to prove that he didnt mean to do exactly what he did.

Are any charges being filed against the guy who had is knee on the guys neck? Not saying there should or shouldnt be, just curious if there is anything to do with him.