Gaza situation discussion

[Master of Ossus]

If Gates had listened to what people were telling him, and had donated the funding for those greenhouses to Palestineans

The money would then be used to smuggle in components for Quassams and finance the construction of several smuggling tunnels along the Philadelphi corridor.

Which, again, is why you need to have Hamas stop dicking around with its "All-Palestine-as-Martyrs" operation, first. Also, making sure that these are loan payments is big because it ensures not only that the best people get the money, but also that they have an incentive to actually use the money productively.

[Master of Ossus]

So should those aid be given and the seige of Gaza be lifted in the event of a ceasefire?

At risk of ducking the IvP moratorium, I'm not sure. Certainly, economic development would require more than a temporary ceasefire--it requires a sufficiently long period of peace to legitimately offer people a chance of realizing a genuine return on investments. If you just hand over money during a temporary truce and then walk away then you're just asking for militants to take it, and that just makes the whole thing worse. The same constraint applies to the blockade, though. On the one hand, efficiency is almost always improved by free movement and trade, and so obviously the ideal situation would be to lift the siege. On the other hand, I really don't think it's reasonable to tell Israel just to let people through even though some fraction of them will be trying to kill Israelis and rebuild the Hamas military.

[MKSheppard]

Which, again, is why you need to have Hamas stop dicking around with its "All-Palestine-as-Martyrs" operation, first.

That's kind of uh, impossible, without changing HAMAS so much it's not HAMAS anymore:

Link to Hamas charter, scroll down

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

....

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. "

....

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

....

Oh my god this is great:

Article Twenty-Two:
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

[Stark]

Does that even remotely surprise you?

The only part that surpises me is that ROTARY CLUBS are a tool of the Zionist oppressor; but then, America will come after you if you give money to a charity that was a front for terrorists, so maybe my grandmother's knitting circles DID contribute to global Zionist domination.

[MKSheppard]

Oh my god, it gets better!

Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

...Later....

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

......OMG, these people BELIEVE in the Protocols, lol.

[ray245]

From what I understand, a similar situation occurred in Ireland in the past century. How did they reach a peace agreement? From what I know, I don't think peace was achieved by the constant hammering of armed forces against the IRA.

[Big Phil]

Does that even remotely surprise you?

The only part that surpises me is that ROTARY CLUBS are a tool of the Zionist oppressor; but then, America will come after you if you give money to a charity that was a front for terrorists, so maybe my grandmother's knitting circles DID contribute to global Zionist domination.

I'm planning to change my Rotary club's charter in a year (when I'm President) to read: "The OBJECT of this Rotary club is to extinguish the Muslim race, starting in Palestine, and to assist the Zionist takeover of Palestine."

[Broomstick]

Given that former adversaries almost never provide ANY aid to the defeated, do you think there was no value in making the gesture?

Probably was some value, but the US did a lot of things as both gestures and real aid. It also did a lot to make the situation worse. You know for the first two years of the occupation it was fucking official allied policy to reduce German productivity and standards of living to what they’d had before Hitler was in power, to those of the middle of the great depression?

Yeah, people WERE fucking pissed at Germany, not just for starting WWII but also butchering people by the millions. As I said, conquerors are not normally nice to the conquered, particularly when there has been a significant reversal of fortunes.

And if that money was so insignificant, why so long to repay? Last I heard, among our allies only Finland and Great Britain ever paid us back in full (thanks, guys!)

Finland was not part of the Marshal Plan in the first place, and no, Britain did not pay us back in full because the vast majority of the Marshal Plan was in the form of grants. Britain did pay back its lend lease debts (only in 2006), which involved three times more money then the entire Marshal Plan, but it still owes us billions from WW1 which will never be paid.

A debt forgiven is no longer owed. Those debts where forgiven due to the Great Depression and have no bearing on WWII monies.

That’s why I made the specific point that Germany alone was given most of its Marshal Plan money in the form of loans, though in the end the US decided to effectively cancel them anyway because we felt bad about having Germany looted even while Marshal aid was delivered.

But not bad enough to give anything back, of course.

The US actually provided more aid to Europe in 1945-1947 before the Marshal Plan anyway, but in the case of German the occupation tax exceeded the value of the aid and a huge number of Germans died in prisoner of war camps from disease, while much of the civilian population starved.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

Look, I feel bad for the Germans caught up in this against their will, but a fucking shitload of people died in POW camps, from disease, and from starvation from 1930-whatever through the middle 1940's. Some of the disease and starvation were just the side effects of war and in no way deliberate or malicious - and some of it was. Hard to tell the difference sometimes. One of my uncles came home from a German POW camp weighing 90 pounds and it took him years to recover, but it wasn't because the Germans were being sadistic, the German guards there had no food either and were just as starved by the time the Allies showed up. Wouldn't surprise me if those guards died because they stayed in Europe while my uncle was transported back to the US with its intact infrastructure and abundant food.

But of course, history is written by the victors, and so the Marshal Plan is played up as a miracle while all the details are ignored.

No, the Marshal Plan wasn't perfect. Neither was it an utter failure. I get damn tired of the black and white fallacy that something must be utterly without flaw or be utterly without redeeming feature.

As for Japan - even "token" gifts like flying a few mutilated women to the States for reconstructive surgery had considerable PR value.

Yeah, it helped counter balance all the bad press from US troops raping thousands of women upon arrival in the country, something which was so bad that US units were confined to barracks when not actually on duty.

As opposed to Japanese conduct while in China, where they not only raped the locals but ate them. The raping of Japanese women is not good and I certainly don't condone it, but against the larger landscape of WWII it was hardly the worst sin committed. In addition, the US command did take steps to stop it and never approved it. The Japanese had their "comfort women", a euphemism for women POW's forced endure multiple rapes daily.

Course in 1946 while Japan was starving so badly our local commanders were letting Japanese women take half drunk glasses of milk from our dinning halls we made the Japanese take out loans to pay for basic food imports.

So how does making the Japanese government take out loans to pay for basic food imports negate the kindness of US commanders giving away food to the locals? Would you rather they had thrown that milk away? Perhaps pour on the ground in front of starving women?

A little kindness goes a long way. We could have been vindictive bastards and made the Japanese impoverished vassels. We didn't. We helped heal the wounded, helped them rebuild, gave them back their country, and swore that in exchange for them renouncing anything but a purely defensive military force we'd protect them from everyone else.

It also sure helped that we let Hirohito and the entire Imperial family get away with fucking mass murder so that they could praise the US publicly for being so kind, and then cut short the trials of the handful of war criminals we were actually willing to go after.

If letting the Emperor live was the price of a lasting future peace then, as repulsive as it may be given his guilt, that WAS the best path. As I said, better to forgo revenge than to endure a multi-generational feud. Wars continually present a choice better two evils and the devil is in finding which is least evil in the long term. What fucking good would it have done the world to string up Hirohito if the consequence was simmering resentment, constant violence, and perhaps outright war again in a few years or decades? Is that what would have happened? We'll never know - but it was a consideration.

None of this changes the fact that all of this happened only after both Axis powers were not just beat, but utterly defeated and shoved into the ground, then occupied and stripped of armaments making any call the continue resistance look insane.

And yet there were Japanese who resisted, who committed acts that we today would label terrorism again the US occupation, who wanted to continue the fight. In order to secure lasting peace it was necessary for the majority of Japanese to marginalize and reject that path.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm seeing unconfirmed reports that the IDF just blasted the UN headquarters for all the relief operations in Gaza, I'll try to look for a source...

EDIT, from the AP:

The UN refugee agency says its Gaza headquarters has been struck by Israeli artillery fire and the building is now ablaze.

Spokesman Chris Gunness said the building was hit today by what was believed to be three white phosphorous shells.

The weapons burn at extremely high temperatures and can set things on fire.

However, witnesses said a nearby building was struck, and the UN building remained intact.

It was hard to verify the accounts because the entire area was covered in black smoke.

Gunness said the building had been used as a shelter for hundreds of people fleeing Israel's 20-day offensive in Gaza.

It's not clear how many people were there at the time.

He said three people were injured.

The Israeli army had no immediate comment on the incident.

Well this could create some waves...

[Bounty]

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen in Gaza City set part of a U.N. relief agency's central storehouse for humanitarian aid ablaze, its director said Thursday.

The fire left black smoke hanging over Gaza City, and there was no way to control the fire, said John Ging, the head of operations in Gaza for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency.

"It's a very big fire, and we're not able to get it under control at the moment," he said. With gun battles going on around the facility, "the emergency services are not able to get to us."

The compound was hit by shrapnel and tank fire during clashes Thursday morning, Ging said. Three workers were hurt, and the compound's warehouse and workshop were burning out of control within an hour and a half, he said. Video Watch as fire blazes at U.N. compound »

"What we've had all night and into this morning is a relentless bombardment of this area by artillery fire, which is coming from kilometers away, and by tank fire," he said. He said staffers identified the source of the fires as white phosphorous shells, whose use is restricted under international law.

There was no immediate comment from the Israeli military on the allegation. But the U.S.-based group Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using white phosphorous shells in Gaza during its campaign against Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since 2007.

The group said that while the use of white phosphorus to obscure military movements is "a permissible use in principle," the substance can burn civilians and start fires in the densely populated region.

The Israel Defense Forces initially denied using the ordnance. But by Monday, Israeli officials said only that any shells fired in Gaza "are in accordance with international law."

Aid workers were already warning that the new fighting between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas threatened to bring about a humanitarian disaster. Following the last two days of bombardment, the private relief agency CARE announced it was canceling its distribution of food and medical aid to the territory during Thursday's fighting as well. Read an aid worker's diary

"Desperately needed supplies are ready to be distributed today, but we cannot reach the people in need because of the bombing," Martha Myers, the charity's director in the Palestinian territories, said in a written statement.

And the Foreign Press Association said international news agency offices in Gaza City was hit by Israeli fire Thursday and demanded Israel stop shooting at the building that houses them.

"We note that these buildings are well known landmarks in Gaza and that the IDF has been clearly notified of their location on several occasions," the agency said.
Don't Miss

* Aid worker: Food finally trickles into Gaza
* Group accuses Israel of firing white phosphorus
* In-depth: Gaza crisis
* CNN Arabic: Gaza escalation
* iReport.com: Send your videos, photos, stories

UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness said the agency had urged Israel to stop fighting nearby, but had no response. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who is in the region for talks aimed at ending the now 20-day war, was meeting Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak as the fire burned.

Gunness urged both Israel and Hamas, which has been firing rockets into southern Israel, to heed the "conscience of the world" and comply with a U.N. resolution calling for a cease-fire.

But he added: "I'm standing looking over the town of Beit Hanoun, and with every dull thud and every plume of smoke that comes out of there, it's sad to say that the parties on the ground are not listening."

Israeli aircraft struck 70 targets in Gaza overnight, the Israel Defense Forces reported Thursday, while fighting on the ground left 11 Israeli troops wounded. The military said about 35 armed Palestinian fighters were wounded or killed in those clashes, mostly by airstrikes.

The Israeli military has been halting its bombardment for daily three-hour stretches to allow trucks loaded with food, fuel and medical supplies to enter the territory. It said it planned to let 170 trucks through the border on Thursday, and announced the appointment of an army officer, Brig. Gen. Shimi Daniel, to coordinate humanitarian efforts. Video Watch as civilians suffer most »

Israel launched its campaign against Gaza on December 27 in an effort to halt the firing of rockets at its southern cities. That fire persisted Thursday, with at least 10 rockets or mortar shells striking Israeli territory, the IDF reported.

More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 5,000 wounded since the conflict began, Palestinian officials said Wednesday. Israel said 10 of its soldiers and three civilians have been killed and more than 100 soldiers have been wounded.
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Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and has been designated a terrorist organization by the Israeli government, the United States and the European Union. A top official of the movement, which won Palestinian elections in 2006, said Wednesday it would accept a cease-fire only if the Jewish state withdraws from Gaza and lifts its economic blockade of the territory.

The issue has split the Arab nations into two camps: Those, like Egypt, who want an end to Hamas' political influence, and others, like Qatar, who are more sympathetic to the movement.

I Israel just trying to piss off the international community now?

[Lonestar]

I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.

[CJvR]

I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.

Well once it's raining WP around you you are bound to feel a bit bombarded even if it was fired to lay smoke.

[Edi]

I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.

Though it's not automatically given, there's a more than trivial probability that the Israelis did just that. They have no qualms about intentionally targeting and leveling civilian infrastructure in the name of expediency and then lying about it afterward. Let's see what turns up before lapping up the IDF pronouncements to the contrary.

[Thanas]

How did this topic suddenly devolve into a discussion about the Marshall Plan?

To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:

- it helped free up funds for rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the damage to the German industry in the war had been done by destroying the means of shipping products or resources.
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany
- the political signal that the USA was willing to stand by Europe in face of the Soviets.

That is the real importance of the Marshall Plan, no matter how small the actual sums might have been.

In that context, Mike is absolutely right. It was not the constant bombardement of the cities that made german citizens good friends - it was the Marshall Plan and CARE packages.

[Beowulf]

The IDF using WP shells is news? Earlier in this thread there was a discussion about a picture, which the conclusion was that it was a M825 smoke shell dispensing.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.

Though it's not automatically given, there's a more than trivial probability that the Israelis did just that. They have no qualms about intentionally targeting and leveling civilian infrastructure in the name of expediency and then lying about it afterward. Let's see what turns up before lapping up the IDF pronouncements to the contrary.

I'm starting to see reports that the IDF isn't bothering with the lying-about-it part. Just look on Youtube, Reddit, Digg, and even Haaretz (!!!) for the words 'Israel', 'Palestine', and 'War'.

[Edi]

Thanks for the tip, Einy, but we've had quite a bit of it in our own news media, since the destruction of that clinic built and run by the Finnish Lutheran Church's Foreign Aid Organization. Our foreign minister grilled the Israeli ambassador and got more or less stonewalled. It's been big news here, and I don't think the Finnish public has forgotten the blue helmet who was killed in Lebanon in 2006 when Israel bombed a UN observation post to smoking rubble. We never got anything resembling a satisfactory report for that either.

[ray245]

How did this topic suddenly devolve into a discussion about the Marshall Plan?

To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:

- it helped free up funds for rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the damage to the German industry in the war had been done by destroying the means of shipping products or resources.
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany
- the political signal that the USA was willing to stand by Europe in face of the Soviets.

That is the real importance of the Marshall Plan, no matter how small the actual sums might have been.

In that context, Mike is absolutely right. It was not the constant bombardement of the cities that made german citizens good friends - it was the Marshall Plan and CARE packages.

Well, It started off due to me proposing a similar action being carried out in the Gaza region. Gaza access to the seas can potentially help Trade for the Palestinians if that place was developed.

[Elfdart]

I Israel just trying to piss off the international community now?

Why not? They know nobody is going to do anything about it. Hell, a number of Israelis watch the slaughter like a spectator sport.

Thanks for the tip, Einy, but we've had quite a bit of it in our own news media, since the destruction of that clinic built and run by the Finnish Lutheran Church's Foreign Aid Organization. Our foreign minister grilled the Israeli ambassador and got more or less stonewalled. It's been big news here, and I don't think the Finnish public has forgotten the blue helmet who was killed in Lebanon in 2006 when Israel bombed a UN observation post to smoking rubble. We never got anything resembling a satisfactory report for that either.

And that's the problem. The Finnish government should have expelled the Israeli ambassador for the attack as well as adding insult to injury by blowing off the foreign minister.

[Mr Bean]

So let me just make sure I got this right.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals. The've spent the past two weeks blowing up every government building inside Gaza and nearly every police station. Just a day ago they blew up a major UN outpost and set fire to tons of food and fuel which the UN had set aside for relief efforts...

So are there any major storehouses left? Because it looks damn like Israel intends to eliminate all law and order with Gaza and out and out starve them out as if this was some kind of Medieval SIEGE.

[Mr Bean]

*Edit, also when this thread ends I intend to move it into the Famous thread section.

[ray245]

So let me just make sure I got this right.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals. The've spent the past two weeks blowing up every government building inside Gaza and nearly every police station. Just a day ago they blew up a major UN outpost and set fire to tons of food and fuel which the UN had set aside for relief efforts...

So are there any major storehouses left? Because it looks damn like Israel intends to eliminate all law and order with Gaza and out and out starve them out as if this was some kind of Medieval SIEGE.

The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.

Come to think of it, can the Fatah even reassert any form of control over the Gaza strip after the attacks has stopped?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.

So long as Hamas remains recalcitrant? I think at this point of time, it has already turned into a winner takes all. Either Hamas capitulates, or the Palestinians suffer. Another truce is meaningless.

Come to think of it, can the Fatah even reassert any form of control over the Gaza strip after the attacks has stopped?

No, they can't. They have no legitimacy.

[Kanastrous]

It's a heartless solution, but it's difficult to see how one can get much more heartless than what's going on right now:

Cut every power, water and communications line between Israel and Gaza,

fully fortify and militarize the border (which in practice probably just means eliminating the remaining Israel-Gaza crossings),

tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.

[ray245]

The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.

So long as Hamas remains recalcitrant? I think at this point of time, it has already turned into a winner takes all. Either Hamas capitulates, or the Palestinians suffer. Another truce is meaningless.

How is Israel going to stop another anti-Israeli party from taking over? As long as a sizable portion of Palenstians is unable to see any tangible benefit, Israel will be experience continued attacks from Gaza.

In the short run, a truce may seem meaninglessness, but in the long run, Israel need to capitalize on the truce to undermine the Hamas credibility of creating stability for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.

t's a heartless solution, but it's difficult to see how one can get much more heartless than what's going on right now:

Cut every power, water and communications line between Israel and Gaza,

fully fortify and militarize the border (which in practice probably just means eliminating the remaining Israel-Gaza crossings),

tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.

People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .