Highlights of the EU

[Kartr_Kana]

An Executor, if properly powered according to its volume is worth over a thousand ISDs, and even at five miles should be worth a hundred or more.

It could be worth a thousand, it would still be minimalist to say that it is what tips the galactic power balance

If an Executor is worth 1000 ISDs that would make it worth 4% of the Empires total force of ISDs. That's not an insignificant force at all, maybe even enough to tip the balance of power. If Zinjis had a fleet of 1000 ISDs and the Rebels destroyed all of them simultaneously would you say that it was an insignificant defeat? A five miler might not be as big a loss as a 19 miler, but it's still not something to sneeze at.

and the people with actual knowledge of Coruscant's available strength knew the operation was bogus.

Bullshit. Zsinj assigned the mission trainees a profile specifically engineered to look like Coruscant's defences, which was what the Wraith analysts perceived it as till they bothered to convert the tonnage listed into Imperial-built ships.

Exactly they had the number but didn't bother to look at them first. Once they did it became obvious that it was a bogus operation.

An outlying shipyard,

And part of the most heavily defended system still in Imperial hands.

Which is why it had five ISDs dedicated to it's defense.

Zahn is overrated; his writing tends towards the idiosyncratic and extremely minimalist, and he likes his own pet characters a bit too much (not that this is not true of most of the EU . . . ).

Since when? Yes he creates new characters and he brings some of them back in later books. Still he hardly favors his characters over Luke and the Gang.

[Eleas]

Allston is not a bad author; he and Stackpole are among the EU top.

Oh dear. If there were a better illustration of the expression "damning with faint praise" anywhere, I have yet to see it. Of course, Stackpole is able to write neither dialogue nor characters in any capacity save the farcical, and in attempting to provoke sympathy or pathos only elicits pity and contempt... but somehow, he's a top EU writer nonetheless! For a given value of "top," one must assume.

But I forget, he's an EU writer, and thus, flaws are magically excused. Clearly, the standards of the EU belong in a category of its own... a special category, so to speak.

[Batman]

Come now. Allston may be one of the minimalists in the EU but then who among the pre-NJO authors wasn't, to some degree? Daley and Smith managed to avoid it by concentrating on a few characters in NOT affecting the fate of the galaxy situations (and The Star Caves of Thon Boka actually had the Centrality Navy amass a reasonably large fleet, and it's made pretty clear that the Centrality is only a tiny part of the Empire), but everything TTT onwards (at least WRT the novels) was minimalist. Allston at least managed to make his (admittedly somewhat minimalist) novels entertaining. 'Yub yub, Commander' and 'At least morale was high'. The Wraith Squadron books, wether or not they are an accurate depiction of the Star Wars universe (which they almost inevitably AREN'T, just like virtually ALL the EU novels prior to the NJO), are FUN. I'm willing to settle for that.
As for Stackpole, while he seemed to be among the more competent BattleTech authors, for his Star Wars work all I have to say is 'I, Jedi'.

[Eleas]

Come now. Allston may be one of the minimalists in the EU but then who among the pre-NJO authors wasn't, to some degree? Daley and Smith managed to avoid it by concentrating on a few characters in NOT affecting the fate of the galaxy situations (and The Star Caves of Thon Boka actually had the Centrality Navy amass a reasonably large fleet, and it's made pretty clear that the Centrality is only a tiny part of the Empire), but everything TTT onwards (at least WRT the novels) was minimalist. Allston at least managed to make his (admittedly somewhat minimalist) novels entertaining. 'Yub yub, Commander' and 'At least morale was high'. The Wraith Squadron books, wether or not they are an accurate depiction of the Star Wars universe (which they almost inevitably AREN'T, just like virtually ALL the EU novels prior to the NJO), are FUN. I'm willing to settle for that.

Indeed. I was a bit unclear about that, but basically, the gist of my post was supposed to be this: to compare Allston to Stackpole is to insult Allston's work beyond measure. Allston writes characters; at best, Stackpole writes callous puppets and psychotic children.

[DrMckay]

Yes, Let's all bow before his vastly superior intellect. (And writing ability)

When did scale and minimalism start to become so important to the story does it rip you out of SOD that much?

I think we need to appreciate the (Good) EU as books-and authors- of their times, of times before the scale of the Star Wars Galaxy was fully realized.

[Stark]

By that you mean 'when written by authors so fucking stupid they honestly had no idea', right? They made the EU what it is; they could just as easily have made it something different back in the day.

[DrMckay]

Zahn's books (the first written,) were good for fleshing out the politics and new planets

Daley gave us a look at Han Solo in the Corporate Sector

Allston had great original characters

Who should they have consulted about scale in the nineties, when many only had the movies to go on?

Going by your logic, what kind of fleets SHOULD Solo and Zinsj have?

[Stark]

How about thinking for themselves? It's not like you need any more than the movies and the novelisations to determine the scale of the Empire.

As you say, the scale in a novel doesn't directly affect it's quality, but it DOES affect it's quality as a Star Wars novel. Sayin it's OK that these books didn't use scale properly because they have dramatic merit is totally missing the point (as much as it's probably exactly how these authors think).

[Eleas]

By that you mean 'when written by authors so fucking stupid they honestly had no idea', right? They made the EU what it is; they could just as easily have made it something different back in the day.

Well, Stark, don't you see that that's different? It's due to this absurd notion that we, as Star Wars fans, should shut our ungrateful traps and be grateful for each scrap of lore falling from our master's table. Instead, we have the temerity to demand consistency!

Yeah, I know, there are limits to what one can expect even as a paying customer. But the name Star Wars on the cover doesn't absolve the books or storyline from having to adhere to standards; that would be ludicrous.

[Galvatron]

Who should they have consulted about scale in the nineties, when many only had the movies to go on?

NOT West End Games as Zahn did. Everyone else just followed his lead.

[Batman]

The WEG ISB indicated a scale FAR beyond what Zahn depicted. While SOME, and posibly a lot, of the blame for TTT's minimalism (and consequently the minimalism of the later EU) lays on WEG's shoulders, they are NOT by far the only guilty party.

[Connor MacLeod]

I pretty much have to goggle at anyone who assumes the movies or movie-based novlizations are somehow immune from minimalism (which itself is a retarded concept, since its only a facet of the idea that Star Wars is pretty much fucked up to begin with.) I mean really, how many of us have actually spent time going over the movie frame by frame? Do any of you even realize some of the insanely bizarre shit that is in there? Han Solo's blaster ejecting casings? Him closing his eyes (or Leia closing her eyes) when they fire? Its more than a little ridiculous to hold up the movies as somehow immune from all this and blame it all on the EU, when the whole thing (movies and all) are riddled with flaws (And don't tell me the movies don't have minimalism, cuz they sure fucking do.) And the EU, like the movies, also have some good bits.

[Connor MacLeod]

and further, let's also note there are two ways to look at a book: its interest in a technical, sci fi-geeky way (which is what some people re bitching and moaning about), and how the book stands from a purely literary point of view. Some books have lousy tech bits but are forgivable because its a good read (or it has more good tech bits. No source is perfect). some books may have sucky stories but interesting technical bits (shitty story in the JAT, but it has interesting technical tidbits.) and some have both, and some have neither.

[The Romulan Republic]

By the way, could someone please, please explain to me how four Imperial-Class Star Destroyers commanded by a halfwit who only got her Admirals bars by doing the oriontal mambo with Tarkin constitutes a CREDIBLE THREAT to the enitre BLOODY NEW REPUBLIC? (Which was only building one new star cruiser at the time-on Calamari at least.)

To be fair, the impression I got was that Daala wasn't capable of taking and holding ground in a campaign, and frankly never intended to. Her entire campaign was a series of hit and run raids. Though Calimari lacking planetary sheilding and capital ship defenses on hand is damn hard to explain. I could possibly buy the sheilds being out due to the World Devistator attacks that had happened not long before, but if that was the case, then their was all the more reason to have a capital ship squadron or at least some ground-based heavy weaponry to defend the place.

Oh, and it was building two star cruisers, if memory serves. If possible I would rationalize this as Calimari's shipyards still recovering from the attack with the World Devistators, and the two ships being Home One-type warships or larger.

And why the HELL was Wedge tapped as a bodyguard while general?

Hell, why would you assign someone who's area of expertese is piloting starfighters to be a bodyguard? For the sake of the plot, of course, but in-universe it makes whoever is in charge of managing personel assignments look like an idiot.

[The Romulan Republic]

If an Executor is worth 1000 ISDs that would make it worth 4% of the Empires total force of ISDs. That's not an insignificant force at all, maybe even enough to tip the balance of power. If Zinjis had a fleet of 1000 ISDs and the Rebels destroyed all of them simultaneously would you say that it was an insignificant defeat? A five miler might not be as big a loss as a 19 miler, but it's still not something to sneeze at.

While I agree that a five-mile warship is a powerful asset, at least in the post-Endor era of a fractured Empire and feuding war lords, its not a tide-turner in and of itself. And while an Executor should be worth 1000 ISDs in firepower based on size, I don't believe it is. If it had been, it could have single-handedly slaughtered the observed Rebel Forces at Endor. I rationalize its lesser fire power as being due to more space being given to hanger facillities, command facillities, sensor and communication equipment, etc. It is, after all, a command ship, not just a battleship.

Which is why it had five ISDs dedicated to it's defense.

Five ISDs in an Empire with 25000 Star Destroyers? Five ISDs is a squadron-level force. Granted, it might be a lot to have in one place normally, given how big the Galaxy is, but its not going to stop a really major attack. Home One alone could probably take five ISDs.

Since when? Yes he creates new characters and he brings some of them back in later books. Still he hardly favors his characters over Luke and the Gang.

Well he did have Mara kill both C'baoth and the cloned Luke in HTTE, when both should probably have been out of her leauge, and he did make Thrawn all but unstopable (though that was kind of the point ). He had an original character kill Thrawn, and he much of the New Republic's inteligence coming from Karrde, another original creation. And he gave that ship theif, a minor crook, far too big a role.

On the other hand, he gave Leia a huge role, and spent a lot of time on Luke's character development. He also gave Wedge a bigger part than the movies, and made out Ackbar to be perhaps more of a leader than the movies justify. So this could be interperated either way.

[Darth Hoth]

I got the impression the Trigit/Petothel operation (Talon destruction) was an Isard leftover, (ie: her obsession with killing pilots and squadrons,) and the effort to bring Petothel in (After she had been discovered by NRI)-instead of simply killing her, was used to show the difference between Zinsj and Isard as regards to their views of "Disposable personnel."

It makes a plot point in that respect, but it could be so easy to trade up the squadron for something larger. Hell, this would not have damaged Myn Donos's character in any way - just make him part of a task force or ambushed fleet instead of a single fighter squadron and still be the single survivor.

As far as minimalism goes, I guess it dosn't really bother me as much as it does you. At least Allston had fleet groups, resource wars, business empires, etc. on the other hand, sometimes numbers can get too ludicrous, ie: Traviss and KJA-

He is far from the worst, but there are glaring details, especially given that they would be so easily avoidable.

By the way, could someone please, please explain to me how four Imperial-Class Star Destroyers commanded by a halfwit who only got her Admirals bars by doing the oriontal mambo with Tarkin constitutes a CREDIBLE THREAT to the enitre BLOODY NEW REPUBLIC? (Which was only building one new star cruiser at the time-on Calamari at least.)

Everyone knows the NR people are retards . . .

And why the HELL was Wedge tapped as a bodyguard while general?

I supposed one could construct some far-fetched rationale about politics or the fluid command structure the NR would have inherited from the Rebel Alliance (which we more or less need anyway, given how certain generals are apparently used as "Swiss Army Knives" and shifted between all the branches). It is still stupid, of course.

On Adumar and Minimalism, the book was a bit of a romp, I'll grant you, (though still my favorite,)

Oh, I liked the book as such. I always imagined the Adumari like Japanese, with their quirky but sometimes interesting culture. And it got rid of Qwi Xux, which alone would redeem several worse novels.

but the planet was advanced enough to produce spaceworthy-hyperspace capable fighters,

Considering that their fighters were unshielded, I somehow doubt they were hyperspace-capable to any real extent. At most, they retrofitted a few.

and industrialized many nations had industrialized for military production.

So has Earth; should we matter to a polity with millions of planets?

According to Cracken, Adumar was wanted to increase supplies of Proton Torpedos, helping a little bit with fighters, not to change the balance of power forever

Which makes no sense with regards to scale.

[The Romulan Republic]

Late edit: Jade killed C'baoth and the clone Luke in The Last Command, not Heir to the Empire, of course. I must be tireder than I thought.

[Darth Hoth]

If an Executor is worth 1000 ISDs that would make it worth 4% of the Empires total force of ISDs. That's not an insignificant force at all, maybe even enough to tip the balance of power. If Zinjis had a fleet of 1000 ISDs and the Rebels destroyed all of them simultaneously would you say that it was an insignificant defeat? A five miler might not be as big a loss as a 19 miler, but it's still not something to sneeze at.

I thought this shit about the "25,000 ISDs only!!!" had been debunked years ago? The number is ludicrous at face value, given the requirements for policing space; the industrial capacity demonstrated by the DSII; and the OOB produced by WEG themselves. Either that referred to some separate, elite pan-Imperial command or rapid-response group only or it meant one production variant of ISDs (probably ISD-Is) among many (much as, say, listing the total production run of Bf 109D in Nazi aircraft production does not mean either the total fighter production or the total number of Bf 109s deployed). Imperial Sector Commands routinely used Executor-class ISDs as command ships, as per Han in RotJ and the WEG sources; they are not uberduper-rare wonder assets.

Exactly they had the number but didn't bother to look at them first. Once they did it became obvious that it was a bogus operation.

Again, bullshit; read the novel. They figured out it was Kuat specifically because it was about as heavily defended as Coruscant, and Kuat was the one system to fit that profile.

Which is why it had five ISDs dedicated to it's defense.

Which makes sense . . . Oh wait, it does not. That it is an "outlying shipyard" is no excuse; ships could microjump in from elsewhere in the system, and given that it was a Super Star Destroyer under construction, the shitty security is inexcusable.

Since when? Yes he creates new characters and he brings some of them back in later books. Still he hardly favors his characters over Luke and the Gang.

The Thrawn-wanking is the most obnoxious, but Karrde and Mara Jade get their share as well. It becomes progressively worse in his later novels.

[Darth Hoth]

Oh dear. If there were a better illustration of the expression "damning with faint praise" anywhere, I have yet to see it. Of course, Stackpole is able to write neither dialogue nor characters in any capacity save the farcical, and in attempting to provoke sympathy or pathos only elicits pity and contempt... but somehow, he's a top EU writer nonetheless! For a given value of "top," one must assume.

What are you talking about? Stackpole writes good and enjoyable (though horribly minimalist) SW novels, much like Allston, and his characters do come to life (Corran Horn the most, of course, given that he is the focus). He does not havethe same faiblesse for humour or ongoing quirky subplots, but writing characters he is among the EU top and a competent writer in his own right.

Come now. Allston may be one of the minimalists in the EU but then who among the pre-NJO authors wasn't, to some degree? Daley and Smith managed to avoid it by concentrating on a few characters in NOT affecting the fate of the galaxy situations (and The Star Caves of Thon Boka actually had the Centrality Navy amass a reasonably large fleet, and it's made pretty clear that the Centrality is only a tiny part of the Empire), but everything TTT onwards (at least WRT the novels) was minimalist. Allston at least managed to make his (admittedly somewhat minimalist) novels entertaining. 'Yub yub, Commander' and 'At least morale was high'. The Wraith Squadron books, wether or not they are an accurate depiction of the Star Wars universe (which they almost inevitably AREN'T, just like virtually ALL the EU novels prior to the NJO), are FUN. I'm willing to settle for that.

I do not mean to go harsher on him than he deserves; he is a good author, and I did list him as a recommended read and among the best in SW. But the minimalism is indisputable.

As for Stackpole, while he seemed to be among the more competent BattleTech authors, for his Star Wars work all I have to say is 'I, Jedi'.

Exactly - possibly the best SW novel of all.

Indeed. I was a bit unclear about that, but basically, the gist of my post was supposed to be this: to compare Allston to Stackpole is to insult Allston's work beyond measure. Allston writes characters; at best, Stackpole writes callous puppets and psychotic children.

You are mixing up Stackpole and Traviss. Hell, can anyone say with a straight face that Stackpole writes worse characters than Zahn?

I think we need to appreciate the (Good) EU as books-and authors- of their times, of times before the scale of the Star Wars Galaxy was fully realized.

WEG, despite their various problems, had set a scale that completely dwarfed the Bantam EU, especially in Zahn's incarnation. They intentionally minimalised it from what was established before.

[Eleas]

Oh dear. If there were a better illustration of the expression "damning with faint praise" anywhere, I have yet to see it. Of course, Stackpole is able to write neither dialogue nor characters in any capacity save the farcical, and in attempting to provoke sympathy or pathos only elicits pity and contempt... but somehow, he's a top EU writer nonetheless! For a given value of "top," one must assume.

What are you talking about? Stackpole writes good and enjoyable (though horribly minimalist) SW novels, much like Allston, and his characters do come to life (Corran Horn the most, of course, given that he is the focus). He does not havethe same faiblesse for humour or ongoing quirky subplots, but writing characters he is among the EU top and a competent writer in his own right.

I'm sorry... there's no way I can take this seriously. Stackpole doesn't write characters, he writes soulless clichés; hell, I could write scripts that have more life than any of them on their best days. Corran Horn is merely the worst offender of the lot.

You are mixing up Stackpole and Traviss. Hell, can anyone say with a straight face that Stackpole writes worse characters than Zahn?

You've hit the bong again, haven't you?

[Darth Hoth]

I'm sorry... there's no way I can take this seriously. Stackpole doesn't write characters, he writes soulless clichés; hell, I could write scripts that have more life than any of them on their best days. Corran Horn is merely the worst offender of the lot.

Bullshit, Corran Horn appears alive and a character with real motivations - even contemplating philosophical questions, though posed in a way that does not trash the morality of the original films (like in NJO: Traitor). Stackpole is, admittedly, weak on his villains, but better than standard EU fare. Oh, and Baron Fel is a cliché, I must agree there (though like Thrawn, he gets wanked to ridiculous proportions by the fandom for whatever reason).

You've hit the bong again, haven't you?

No; drugs are illegal in Sweden.

[Eleas]

Bullshit, Corran Horn appears alive and a character with real motivations - even contemplating philosophical questions, though posed in a way that does not trash the morality of the original films (like in NJO: Traitor). Stackpole is, admittedly, weak on his villains, but better than standard EU fare. Oh, and Baron Fel is a cliché, I must agree there (though like Thrawn, he gets wanked to ridiculous proportions by the fandom for whatever reason).

There is no subtlety whatsoever to Corran Horn. None. At best, he's a cardboard cutout with all the complexity of a lump of tofu. You may be impressed by his sophomorically shallow quasi-philosophical ramblings, but they fool no-one with even cursory knowledge of the subject (and by 'cursory', I mean thumbing through a highschool book. Tops). All the "conundrums" presented by Stackpole range around obviously artificial dilemmas, which are swiftly solved in a uniquely Stackpolian fashion, by way of opaque monologues that read as if written one-handed.

Apparently, there are people who see this as signs of psychological depth. That doesn't mean I'm obliged to withhold my derision. So I don't.

No; drugs are illegal in Sweden.

Jodutack, jag har fått höra det. Det finns de som tar droger ändå, har jag hört.

[Darth Hoth]

There is no subtlety whatsoever to Corran Horn. None. At best, he's a cardboard cutout with all the complexity of a lump of tofu. You may be impressed by his sophomorically shallow quasi-philosophical ramblings, but they fool no-one with even cursory knowledge of the subject (and by 'cursory', I mean thumbing through a highschool book. Tops). All the "conundrums" presented by Stackpole range around obviously artificial dilemmas, which are swiftly solved in a uniquely Stackpolian fashion, by way of opaque monologues that read as if written one-handed.

Apparently, there are people who see this as signs of psychological depth. That doesn't mean I'm obliged to withhold my derision. So I don't.

Star Wars is not "deep", film or EU, and evidently (from the management decisions/choice of authors) it is not supposed to. By the standards of the universe, the Stackpole books are quite sophisticated; they go a little deeper on the light/dark side of the Force dichotomy, and they do have a few other somewhat interesting dilemmas and resolutions (such as Elegos a'Kla's conversation with Shedao Shai; it is not "advanced", per se, but for light adventure stories it is).

Jodutack, jag har fått höra det. Det finns de som tar droger ändå, har jag hört.

Åh, en landsman! Vilken överraskning, för den som inte läser texten i vänsterfältet . . .

[Eleas]

Star Wars is not "deep", film or EU, and evidently (from the management decisions/choice of authors) it is not supposed to. By the standards of the universe, the Stackpole books are quite sophisticated; they go a little deeper on the light/dark side of the Force dichotomy, and they do have a few other somewhat interesting dilemmas and resolutions (such as Elegos a'Kla's conversation with Shedao Shai; it is not "advanced", per se, but for light adventure stories it is).

Well, your mileage may vary, I suppose. Personally, I harbour loathing for any author who would offer faux complexity to cover for his own shortcomings; I recognize platitudes as well as any reader, and fortune-cookie philosophy does not as a rule impress me. Such spurious nonsense will continue to ring hollow in the absence of solid characterization, which is why Stackpole's books were and will continue to be forgettable.
But then, perhaps not. A lot of people were awed by the deep philosophical implications of The Matrix, too.

Jodutack, jag har fått höra det. Det finns de som tar droger ändå, har jag hört.

Åh, en landsman! Vilken överraskning, för den som inte läser texten i vänsterfältet . . .

Japps, sånt händer de bästa. Oh, and before we get the thread locked in defiance of rule 1, we should probably stop discussing things in strange foreign tongues, at least until enlightenment is theirs and they gain understanding of our refined tongue.

[Imperial Overlord]

As for Stackpole, while he seemed to be among the more competent BattleTech authors, for his Star Wars work all I have to say is 'I, Jedi'.

Jesus Christ no, he was never a competent Battletech writer. The man writes cliches, deus ex machina rescues and victories, can't keep his background material consistent with the published setting, and is irresistibly drawn to staged, self-righteous, strawman loaded, hackneyed speeches where a protagonist verbally castigates/gloats for far, far too long over a defeated/soon to be defeated two dimensional cardboard villain.