Poland: Workers find WWII mass grave of Germans

[ray245]

WARSAW, Poland – Construction workers in northern Poland have unearthed a World War II-era mass grave containing what are believed to be the bodies of 1,800 German men, women and children who disappeared during the Soviet Army's march to Berlin.

Poles digging at the site of a planned luxury hotel in Malbork — which was called Marienburg and was part of Germany during the war — excavated a bomb crater at the foot of the city's famous 13th century Teutonic Knights fortress, authorities said Monday.

The workers found a small group of bodies in late October and halted digging to allow prosecutors to investigate. After resuming work weeks later, the workers turned up dozens, and then hundreds, more corpses. They believe more may be found.

It was not immediately clear how the bodies ended up in the crater but initial examinations by Polish and German experts have concluded that they are likely the remains of German citizens still classified as "missing" more than 60 years after the end of the war, town official Piotr Szwedowski told The Associated Press.

Millions of civilians were killed or declared missing during World War II. Many of those who disappeared in the chaos of wartime Europe are still unaccounted for.

"Examination of the remains and the circumstances confirm that these are the missing German inhabitants of Malbork," Szwedowski said. "I have no doubt it is them."

As the Red Army was advancing in early 1945, the inhabitants of Malbork were ordered to evacuate. Some refused, while others were prevented from doing so by the general chaos of the nearing front.

The Soviets bombarded the city with heavy artillery in their assault. After the defeated German military retreated, the remaining civilians found themselves at the mercy of Red Army troops. There are no known living witnesses of what happened, Szwedowski said.

The bodies were buried naked without any possessions, he said.

"We found no trace of any clothes, shoes, belts, glasses — not even dentures or false teeth," he said.

Some 100 skulls — primarily of adults — have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

"We don't know if these (civilians) are direct or indirect victims of the artillery barrage but the bullet holes suggest executions in some cases," he said.

More forensic tests will be carried out before the remains are laid to rest either in Malbork or a German military cemetery in Stary Czarnow, near the northwestern city of Szczecin.

"These people died in such an inhuman way, were dumped so inhumanely, that we need to bury them in dignity and respect," Szwedowski said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090112/ap_ ... ii_remains

[Kanastrous]

Some 100 skulls — primarily of adults — have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

I'm thinking bayonets.

Payback's a bitch.

[Samuel]

Some 100 skulls — primarily of adults — have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

I'm thinking bayonets.

Payback's a bitch.

Were these ethnic germans or people who exploited the chance to move into Poland? Because in the first case it is less revolutionary justice and more atrocity.

[Kanastrous]

From what I've read - I'd be particularly interested in Stas Bush's perspective - it sounds as though the Red Army did not draw much distinction between resettled Germans on Polish land, German military personnel, and ethnic Germans who just happened to be there.

[Darth Hoth]

Some 100 skulls — primarily of adults — have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

I'm thinking bayonets.

Payback's a bitch.

Were these ethnic germans or people who exploited the chance to move into Poland? Because in the first case it is less revolutionary justice and more atrocity.

So it would not be an atrocity anyway to murder defenceless women and children, even if they happened to be settlers?

And no, if they did come from Marienburg, they did not settle on occupied or annexed soil; the city was part of East Prussia, had a German majority and had been Prussian/German since the first partition of Poland.

[K. A. Pital]

Can't comment one way or other, but so far as I gather there's an investigation about the buried. Some bodies are apparently dead from the shelling of the city, others were shot. Who and how killed them remains unknown.

Could've been the army units executing some of them (no details are given on which people among the graves were executed), then burying en masse with the rest of the bodies in the mass grave, could have been the locals.

Anyway, how is it that there's no witnesses? I'm sure some will be found; those people could not have been the only inhabitants of the city, could they? Or at least, there were Polish in vinicity. They could've been fleeing with, or after, the German troops, and killed by the Army, or even mistaken for German soldiers trying to retreat under civilian disguise. Likewise, it's possible that after most of them died from the bombing, the rest got killed by the advancing Army indiscriminately.

it sounds as though the Red Army did not draw much distinction between resettled Germans on Polish land, German military personnel, and ethnic Germans who just happened to be there.

Well, the Red Army did draw a distinction between civilian Germans and soldiers of Germany when it was in Germany proper, but it is well possible that during the advance in Eastern Europe, resettled and ethnic Germans got looped with the military. Still doesn't explain it, the Red Army took a lot of POW German soldiers in 1944-1945 when steaming through Europe and essentially those people, even the 100 of those who were executed, if they were mistaken for soldiers, could've been taken POW.

It's not clear why and how they died. Unlike the killing in Nemmersdorf, where there is some historic record, here none is presented (so far).

[PeZook]

Of course, some German publications and one internet portal already imply that it a Polish atrocity, saying things like "it was unlikely the Red Army could've done this".

Yeah, because it wasn't the Red Army which had all the tanks and troops in Malbork during the war

An investigation has begun to figure out the facts about the mass grave: from what I've heard, it seems to be a mix of people who were executed and died of other reasons.

[K. A. Pital]

Of course, some German publications and one internet portal already imply that it a Polish atrocity

Well, a mob massacre of the fleeing settlers isn't ruled out either, though not extremely likely - I'm surprised the Germans are making any statements on it, after all, they weren't there when it happened and the only peopel who could shed light on this are Poles and Russians who might have some records, documents or memories, and the investigation team whose task would be finding them.

Basically though, it's either the Red Army shooting some of those people, or the mob, and they are clearly wartime deaths - if this happened not during the war but afterwards, there'd be some records or witnesses, as well as very unlikely to be simply buried in a mass grave which is only common for burial of war dead during wartime. That's ethnic Germans in E. Europe we're talking about, and it's not like the Red Army didn't have a lot of armed people simply hating everyone speaking German.

[thejester]

There was (IIRC) a huge amount of ethnic cleansing, to borrow a term, in Poland in the immediate postwar period. Given that, the nature of the Communist regime and the fact they were Germans I don't think it's that surprising no-one has come forward to say they witnessed it.

[K. A. Pital]

There was (IIRC) a huge amount of ethnic cleansing, to borrow a term, in Poland in the immediate postwar period

In no small part it happened due to huge amounts of German settlers in Poland, and the expansion of Polish territories into Germany, which led to massive forced population transfers. But there should have been witnesses, and while no one could give two shits about the Germans during the PPL days (an understandable sentiment, considering the attitude of Germany towards Poland and their policies), as of now those witnesses could easily come forward. At the very least, their descendants could have.

[thejester]

There was (IIRC) a huge amount of ethnic cleansing, to borrow a term, in Poland in the immediate postwar period

In no small part it happened due to huge amounts of German settlers in Poland, and the expansion of Polish territories into Germany, which led to massive forced population transfers.

It'd be interesting to see some figures - I would have thought inspite of Nazi policy the vast majority of Germans in Poland would have been remnants from the redrawing of the borders in 1919. I only studied it briefly but AFAIK the vast majority of the population shift in the immediate postwar period were Prussians getting the arse, or people in the compensation areas.

But there should have been witnesses, and while no one could give two shits about the Germans during the PPL days (an understandable sentiment, considering the attitude of Germany towards Poland and their policies), as of now those witnesses could easily come forward. At the very least, their descendants could have.

Even small children would be in their 80s by now; it might simply be that none of the witnesses are left alive. Likewise their descendants might simply not know the full scale or details (oral testimony can be sketchy at the best of times) and they're hardly compelling sources anyway. Finally, we don't know how many of those in the grave were actually executed and I don't think it's drawing a long bow to suggest that given the levels of violence in Poland from 1944 onwards such an event might not have been considered that noteworthy by those who participated in it.

[PeZook]

There was (IIRC) a huge amount of ethnic cleansing, to borrow a term, in Poland in the immediate postwar period. Given that, the nature of the Communist regime and the fact they were Germans I don't think it's that surprising no-one has come forward to say they witnessed it.

Thing is, that grave is a mix of bodies with very different marks on them (some were shot, some were not). While currently all we have are hypotheses (the exhumations are still going on), the most likely explanation is that it's a mass grave in which all dead were buried en masse after the city was seized because there was no time for individual burials.

The fighitng in Malbork was rather fierce, there were little supplies for civilians, it was winter and as Stas noted the city was taken by a bunch of heavily armed young Russians with a grudge against Germans, and it had a small Polish minority which wasn't armed as well, but carried just as much of a grudge.

As for witnesses, the IPN is currently looking for any they can find. What's more, some German internet portal has already began calling it the "Polish Katyn". Low.

[Thanas]

As for witnesses, the IPN is currently looking for any they can find. What's more, some German internet portal has already began calling it the "Polish Katyn". Low.

What, you mean someone echoes the polish habit of blowing everything out of the water? Shocking. Especially when all the major news organizations echo that claim...oh wait, they do not. Heck, every news source has treated this with detached reporting so far.

Why is there a need to repeat what people write on an internet portal?

[K. A. Pital]

What's more, some German internet portal has already began calling it the "Polish Katyn". Low.

Yeah, that's low. Unless you know exactly what happened, you should just shut up about it unless you do know. Apparently, in modern mass media that's not taken as a rule though - considering how everyone went about the "Russians suddenly attacked Georgia for no reason" during the hours when Georgia shelled South Ossetia and the soldiers therein, I see that the threshold for factual proof in modern journalism is ridiculously low. Even if it were a lynch mob, I fail to understand how that is even remotely comparable to Katyn where the POWs were executed by the secret police and not the military, or civilian Russians with a grudge, on state orders, not because they felt some sort of intense hatred. Those are totally incomparable instances.

Also, it became all too easy to immediately slap names of very particular historical events like "Katyn", "Babi Yar", "Auschwitz" and "Holocaust" on other events which are distinctly different upon the whim of the reporter. That's a worrisome trend.

Why is there a need to repeat what people write on an internet portal?

If that's just someone commenting the news, that's one thing. If it's an internet editorial or article on a news portal or a political portal, there should be attention. Internet has become a prominent mass media as of now, eclipsing even the volume of newspapers in the USA.

Therefore, a net portal might be treated in the same fashion as a newspaper; if it falsifies something or blows out of proportion, that's similar to a press falsification, and should not be easily disregarded, because the auditory of such a portal might even eclipse the average newspaper.

[Thanas]

Oh please, Stas.

There are only eight reputable internet portals in Germany, and all are run by regular media. Do not mistake the situation in the USA for the situation in Germany. So unless it is a portal that ends in:

- süddeutsche.de
- spiegel.de
-faz.net
- focus.de
- zeit.de
- cicero.de
- zdf.de
- ard.de

I would pay no mind to it.

Especially since every Tom Dick and Harry can build a website and post some stuff - and suddenly it is an "Internet portal." So unless Pezook reveals his source I will continue to mock it.

[PeZook]

What, you mean someone echoes the polish habit of blowing everything out of the water? Shocking. Especially when all the major news organizations echo that claim...oh wait, they do not. Heck, every news source has treated this with detached reporting so far.

Why is there a need to repeat what people write on an internet portal?

Perhaps because it's not just a random portal but http://www.polskaweb.eu, which actually styles itself as a "go-to" website when it comes to news on Poland and Poles?

It may not be a major mainstream news source, but it still influences plenty of people while having nearly no data whatsoever on the nature of the mass grave but still slapping on an etiquette. It's an example of the kind of totally irresponsible journalism which I don't think should be left out of the discussion (and yes, this also goes for Polish reporting about Katyn, which is equally horrible in many cases)

[K. A. Pital]

Do not mistake the situation in the USA for the situation in Germany.

Well, yeah, perhaps I've been a bit offset by the US situation where every mindfart of some sort of mildly popular blogger immediately becomes a "fact" in the heads of hundreds or even thousands of readers.

[Thanas]

: Redaktion Polskaweb
: Na Murawie
: 68-135
: Poznan
: Wielkopolska
: Polen

So let me get this straight, Pezook - you think an internet portal which is not even run by Germans, but in fact a Polish business according to the impressum is a) a German internet portal and b) representative?

Yeah, right. Their cover story for the week is "Polish nudists on the rise" and a large part of their website seems to be trying to attract singles. NOT what I would call a German news source and I doubt you would find any German on the street who even knows about that blog.

If anything, you should blast your fellow countrymen for not knowing their history about Katyn, seeing as it was a polish website that published that drivel.

[K. A. Pital]

I doubt you would find any German on the street who even knows about that blog

They do pride on having some sort of authority on the matter though:
http://polskaweb.eu/massengrab-marienburg-45679.html
And here's the post in question:
http://polskaweb.eu/ziviles-massengrab- ... 45677.html

It's really a peculiar case. They are hardly some sort of prime authority, but they do seem concerned about reporting their speculations about this event to their readers.

Maybe it's not alone though? "Polen+Katyn+Malbork" and "Polnisches+Katyn+Malbork" give out a few hundred threads and news parroting this question, suggesting that the source material and the ridiculous header of the article especially already penetrated the blogosphere to some extent.

[Thanas]

Stas, did you miss my previous post? Polskaweb is a polish news source, not a german one. Do a search in german media, and you will find that not a single one of them talks about Katyn.

Like:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/805/453495/text/ that is the typical reaction AFAIK.

Meanwhile, the biggest TV news stations has this to say:
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/skelettfund102.html (speculating about Typhus).

There is not a single news source going "OMG. KATYN. EVUL RUSSZIANS." That is all speculation done by Polskaweb, which is a polish news source. If anything is having a huge shitfest over this it is the Poles, not the german media.

[PeZook]

This is...quite shocking.

It would indeed appear Thanas is correct. I am completely befuddled by this, but dem's the breaks: it's a Polish news source published in German, owned by a company that deals in car insurance, car rental and diving tourism. And, apparently, shitty journalism.

Sounds like bad fanfiction.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, did you miss my previous post? Polskaweb is a polish news source

Yeah, I posted without seeing your post since it took time to read through that site. And the fact that it's Polish is just bizzare. It seems that's basically attention whoring - "publish some wild speculation on a controversial subject, expect massive publicity!".

[Thanas]

Meanwhile, the Spiegel had a three-page article, very well sourced and researched in today's print edition. It featured several quotations by german civilians and german army officers, as well as Polish sources.

And while all sources concur that there was the usual mistreatment of civilians by the Red army (mass rape and thievery), the german officers said that they were unaware of any largescale massacre. They confirmed this via captured red army soldiers and also the fact that they could overview nearly the whole town from the castle where they were stationed.

There were some civilians claiming mass executions, but so far no proof has been found either way. It might very well be that the Typhus theory will hold - essentially there was a Typhus pandemic and what happens is that the dead were buried in mass graves, with the undertakers then being shot by the Russians/Poles as a form of pest control.

The only problem with that theory is that it does not really explain that the buried perons had been robbed of every valuable, even gold teeth, but that might be explained by graverobbers.

[K. A. Pital]

What was the number of the shot persons, several dozen? Most of the folks there died in other ways than execution, so for most of them, mob killing or Red Army execution theory doesn't hold. We'll see what they find out.

[Thanas]

^Yes, that is true. There was one German civilian who claimed that the red army even evacuated part of the city when the fighting started.

Like I said, while there seem to have been the usual war crimes, there is no proof so far regarding a massacre.