Big Professor is Watching You

[lazerus]

I am, as I have mentioned before, an undergraduate engineering student at Cornell University. Recently, I began a new design class in MAE, and was rather surprised to find their attendance policies. All students are required to carry an "iClicker" (essentially a combination remote/tracking device), uniquely registered to you, that is used to determine if you attend lectures. For each time your iClicker isn't registered, the computer system automatically knocks 2% off your final grade. It is also used at random points in the lecture to determine that everyone is listening -- again, with punitive penalties if you don't click in on time.

In of itself, this isn't so bad (though certainly irritating), but I find it surprising that these sorts of measures are employed. Although I am only in the one class, many classes at my school have started employing some manner of automated system to keep track of students movements. While describing this as Orwellian would be hyperbole, it's certainly a step in that direction. Even more interesting is the school requiring students to undertake steps to keep the system working, passing the workload off onto the people their monitoring.

Is this sort of thing common in other schools? What about the corporate world? I'm aware of companies like Google having amazing ability to track someone through datamining, but this is the first incident I've seen of outright aggressive monitering.

[Count Dooku]

I have a friend attending the University of Washington, and they have the same thing. At Cal State East Bay, I haven't run into something similar. The professors don't care if you go. My physical chemistry class always has lots of people (probably everyone, every time both quarters now), but organic chemistry typically only see's 15% attendance to lectures. Don't really know why the disparity exists between those two classes.

So, for each time your iClicker doesn't register, you get 2% knocked off your final grade? Missing one day could be the difference between an A and a D!

[Kodiak]

So, for each time your iClicker doesn't register, you get 2% knocked off your final grade? Missing one day could be the difference between an A and a D!

Got Math?


-2% off the final grade would push a 91% to an 89%, an A to a B. I'm confused by what you mean.

[Duckie]

Kodiak-
Got Math yourself. -2 each means that it can happen more than once. Meaning that if there is more than one question, you start losing more and more points. And that there can be more than 1 day wherein there are quesitons. Imagine that.

As far as presence of clickers:

Same here. My first year engineering class actually had a grade based entirely around attending and listening to the lectures, because it was a "Let's explain what engineering is to make sure nobody's in this major without knowing" sort of class (yawn).

I wouldn't describe it as Orwellian or restrictive. Further, describing 'taking attendance' as 'monitoring student movements' is a bit hyperbolic. And by a bit I mean massively. I'd describe it more as a pain in the ass. Annoyingly my Chem and Engineering classes use two different models so I have to carry two around.

[RedImperator]

Does Cornell hold your dick while you take a leak, too? Jesus Christ. I can understand an attendance policy for freshmen, to keep their newfound freedom from going to their heads and wrecking their academic careers early, but for upperclassmen, why does the school give a shit? You're paying to be there, if you don't feel like going to class, that's your decision (and your consequences to deal with, too).

I'm surprised this hasn't been sabotaged yet. At MIT, they'd probably have modified the system to order 15 pizzas or set off the fire alarm or something by now.

[Kodiak]

Kodiak-
Got Math yourself. -2 each means that it can happen more than once. Meaning that if there is more than one question, you start losing more and more points. And that there can be more than 1 day wherein there are quesitons. Imagine that.

Since he said missing "ONE DAY" could knock you from an A to a D, the idea that you would have to click your button FIFTEEN TIMES during a single lecture seems ridiculous. As I understood the OP, and similar devices in other campuses, a computer takes "attendance" at the beginning of class to see if everyone is there (-2% if you're not there). It may check again "at random points in the lecture", which I figure (by what I consider reasonable) to be at most 3 times (another -6%). Please help me understand then how a person's grade could drop 30% by missing a single day in class. If I've misunderstood how these things work, I humbly submit to a thorough explanation.

[Kanastrous]

And one person couldn't put on a photographer's vest, load the pockets with their classmates' clickers, and ensure perfect attendance for all by themselves not missing a class, because...?

[Kodiak]

And one person couldn't put on a photographer's vest, load the pockets with their classmates' clickers, and ensure perfect attendance for all by themselves not missing a class, because...?

I suppose if you actually had to "click" the controller, that'd be a little awkward. If you just have to show up to be marked "present", I guess the many-pockets look would come back in style.

[RedImperator]

And one person couldn't put on a photographer's vest, load the pockets with their classmates' clickers, and ensure perfect attendance for all by themselves not missing a class, because...?

It would depend on the size of the class and the memory of the professor, and if he kept his own attendance list. For a big lecture, it would probably work. In fact, somebody's probably making money doing just that as we speak.

[zircon]

I've never heard of something even remotely like this in Sweden, from what i know professors don't care if you attend lectures or not. Personally the iClicker would make my studies an irritating hell.

When there's a lecture that i feel i can either study more effectively in the networking lab, already grasp, is simply worthless, or when i have something more important to do i simply skip it.

My grades should be judged on my reports and finals, not my ability to make time fly.

[Thanas]

I am pretty sure that such a procedure would be illegal in most of Europe.

BTW, what happened to the good old attendance list?

[Duckie]

I am pretty sure that such a procedure would be illegal in most of Europe.

BTW, what happened to the good old attendance list?

600 strong class means attendance list is awkward compared to making students pay 20 bucks and having it electronically done.

[Darth Wong]

I am pretty sure that such a procedure would be illegal in most of Europe.

What law is being broken by this practice? I agree it's asinine, but I don't see why it would be illegal.

BTW, what happened to the good old attendance list?

Universities didn't bother with attendance lists when I went. But we've had a serious erosion of academic standards in the last 20 years; fail rates have plummeted as university is increasingly taking over the function that high schools have abdicated and parents have come to view their kids' lousy grades as a failing of "the system" rather than their own kids.

It seems to me that an increasing focus on attendance is inevitable in that environment: they are literally giving people grades just for showing up.

[Count Dooku]

So, for each time your iClicker doesn't register, you get 2% knocked off your final grade? Missing one day could be the difference between an A and a D!

Got Math?


-2% off the final grade would push a 91% to an 89%, an A to a B. I'm confused by what you mean.

I should have qualified that statement: as I understand it, and this comes from more than just the OP, the professor asks you questions during lecture, and you answer them via the clicker. You can be asked many questions in the span of a lecture. IF that was the same here, you could potentially miss significant amounts of points.

However, if the device's sole purpose was just to take attendance, than there isn't an with the grade. That would be asinine though - just hand the device to a friend, or stand out side class and click it at the beginning of class :p .

[Thanas]

I am pretty sure that such a procedure would be illegal in most of Europe.

What law is being broken by this practice? I agree it's asinine, but I don't see why it would be illegal.

Well, in Germany for example it would be unconstitutional to monitor the movements of students. Nevermind the data security laws.

BTW, what happened to the good old attendance list?

Universities didn't bother with attendance lists when I went. But we've had a serious erosion of academic standards in the last 20 years; fail rates have plummeted as university is increasingly taking over the function that high schools have abdicated and parents have come to view their kids' lousy grades as a failing of "the system" rather than their own kids.

It seems to me that an increasing focus on attendance is inevitable in that environment: they are literally giving people grades just for showing up.

Hmmm. I don't know. My university handles things the opposite way - if you do not attend at all, you will not receive a passing grade no matter what you do.

[Hawkwings]

The way it worked for my only class that used clickers was that you got extra credit for answering clicker questions when they came up in class.

[Knife]

Money maker, I'm betting.

[Mayabird]

Money maker, I'm betting.

Yeah, school probably has a contract with the people who made that overpriced clicker. They were starting it up at GT (I don't know who was in charge of all the financial stuff but they would whore themselves out for a nickle while still squeezing us dry) when I was finishing up, but I only saw them used in some big lecture classes.

I hated it. Riding the curve gets a lot harder when the idiots show up in class more often.

[Starglider]

Tracking attendance shouldn't be necessary if students have a work ethic. If you are determined to pass the course, then you will go to the lectures to the extent that they were useful. When I was finishing secondary school in the mid 90s, there was a very explicit emphasis on developing a work ethic for independent study (in the last two years). Some of us took hits to our A-Level grades as a result of that (due to failure to get work done early enough - I certainly did), but it was worth it to prepare us for university.

Unfortunately this attitude was difficult for the school to maintain at the time (that school managed to break a lot of rules - it was one of the last public selective schools in the UK) and is probably virtually impossible now. Students seem to be coddled through their A-levels and as a result arrive at university unprepared to study. Frankly it amazes me that the US is so bad considering that students in the US pay so much of their own money for tuition, but then many Americans do seem to have become completely disconnected from the value and consequences of spending money.

[ArmorPierce]

Tracking attendance shouldn't be necessary if students have a work ethic. If you are determined to pass the course, then you will go to the lectures to the extent that they were useful. When I was finishing secondary school in the mid 90s, there was a very explicit emphasis on developing a work ethic for independent study (in the last two years). Some of us took hits to our A-Level grades as a result of that (due to failure to get work done early enough - I certainly did), but it was worth it to prepare us for university.

Unfortunately this attitude was difficult for the school to maintain at the time (that school managed to break a lot of rules - it was one of the last public selective schools in the UK) and is probably virtually impossible now. Students seem to be coddled through their A-levels and as a result arrive at university unprepared to study. Frankly it amazes me that the US is so bad considering that students in the US pay so much of their own money for tuition, but then many Americans do seem to have become completely disconnected from the value and consequences of spending money.

Well, there is a difference between them paying their own tution, and mommie and daddy paying for tuition. Rather significant difference.

[Mayabird]

Tracking attendance shouldn't be necessary if students have a work ethic. If you are determined to pass the course, then you will go to the lectures to the extent that they were useful. When I was finishing secondary school in the mid 90s, there was a very explicit emphasis on developing a work ethic for independent study (in the last two years). Some of us took hits to our A-Level grades as a result of that (due to failure to get work done early enough - I certainly did), but it was worth it to prepare us for university.

Unfortunately this attitude was difficult for the school to maintain at the time (that school managed to break a lot of rules - it was one of the last public selective schools in the UK) and is probably virtually impossible now. Students seem to be coddled through their A-levels and as a result arrive at university unprepared to study. Frankly it amazes me that the US is so bad considering that students in the US pay so much of their own money for tuition, but then many Americans do seem to have become completely disconnected from the value and consequences of spending money.

Well, there is a difference between them paying their own tution, and mommie and daddy paying for tuition. Rather significant difference.

A lot of them are probably taking out student loans. Considering how a very large portion of the current economic mess has come about, I don't think many of them understand the concept of loans or have any real ability to think about long term consequences, else they wouldn't take out $80,000 in loans to get a degree in comparative literature (or something like that; if you're wondering I have someone specifically in mind right now).

[Junghalli]

Does Cornell hold your dick while you take a leak, too? Jesus Christ. I can understand an attendance policy for freshmen, to keep their newfound freedom from going to their heads and wrecking their academic careers early, but for upperclassmen, why does the school give a shit? You're paying to be there, if you don't feel like going to class, that's your decision (and your consequences to deal with, too).

Yeah, that's always been the way it works at the college I go to. You don't need high school type nanny punishments for not attending class. The punishment for not attending class is simple: you fail all the tests and fail the class because you weren't listening to the lectures. You're paying for it and it's your choice to be there and on your head if you screw up through your own laziness, it isn't high school where the school is expected to hold slackers' hands and do their best to forcibly ram an education down their unwilling throats.

[Rye]

At mine you just get booted if you miss too many lectures (though you can get around it if you have extenuating circumstances), I must say this is really odd to read. It would appear it's a rarity, going by the posts in this thread.

[lazerus]

Apparently the policy (which I am going to try and protest) was instituted in response too very low attendance rates in this class last semester. The fact that a vast majority of the class was passing when <25% were regularly attending lectures caused students to come to the entirely explicable belief that the lecture material was irrelevant to the labs and examinations and could safely be skipped. This went on to the point where last years measure of threatening up to 5% off your final grade if you didn't attend was ineffective, as students decided 5% off their final grade was worth never having to attend lectures. So rather then alter the content of the lectures or examinations, the school decided to insitute this policy.

We aren't freshman, for fucks sake. Anyone who makes it to the end of Year 2 as an engineer knows how to study.

[Samuel]

Apparently the policy (which I am going to try and protest) was instituted in response too very low attendance rates in this class last semester. The fact that a vast majority of the class was passing when <25% were regularly attending lectures caused students to come to the entirely explicable belief that the lecture material was irrelevant to the labs and examinations and could safely be skipped. This went on to the point where last years measure of threatening up to 5% off your final grade if you didn't attend was ineffective, as students decided 5% off their final grade was worth never having to attend lectures. So rather then alter the content of the lectures or examinations, the school decided to insitute this policy.

We aren't freshman, for fucks sake. Anyone who makes it to the end of Year 2 as an engineer knows how to study.

So they decided to do this instead of making the lecture relevant to your grade? This is like Trek- there is the simple answer and the high tech answer... lets do the second!