SGA 5x20 "Enemy at the Gate" Talkback (Series Finale)

[Vertigo1]

Didn't they find out midway through the season that would be the last ep?

I reckon they did a hasty rewrite to make it not a cliffhanger. Early rumours were that it would be a cliffhanger iirc.

They should have just cliffhangered it and done a big movie in my opinion.

And risk having another Farscape on their hands? I think Scifi put some pressure on them to NOT make it a cliffhanger for that very reason.

[JME2]

Didn't they find out midway through the season that would be the last ep?

I reckon they did a hasty rewrite to make it not a cliffhanger. Early rumours were that it would be a cliffhanger iirc.

They should have just cliffhangered it and done a big movie in my opinion.

And risk having another Farscape on their hands? I think Scifi put some pressure on them to NOT make it a cliffhanger for that very reason.

Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi claims the intention had always been to return Atlantis to Earth for the 100th episode. So, if Sci-Fi was pressuring them and Mallozi's not bullshitting us, this appears to have been mutually beneficial to the network and the producers. (On a sour note, it looks like there were also plans to do at least one more episode with the Asurans, or rather the rogue Asurans. God willingly, nothing will come of that in the first or any successive SGA films.)

[NecronLord]

(On a sour note, it looks like there were also plans to do at least one more episode with the Asurans, or rather the rogue Asurans. God willingly, nothing will come of that in the first or any successive SGA films.)

It'd be damn easy to plunk the Asurans in a film that wouldn't involve using them as ghosts and ghoulies.

Eager to be rid of the threat of the Wraith, the Arsegard pick up the remnants of Asuran crews from the vessels destroyed before the Battle of Asuras (McKay actually set this up, after all) who begin to rebuild thier civilization in record time, granting the Asgard an ally capable of taking on the Wraith.

What's more, with the knowledge of Janus' research the Asgard seem to have, the Asurans hatch another plan, and send warships after Atlantis, eager to steal Janus' time-travel research, in order to travel back in time and take a copy of the stored minds of their race, while the Asgard are equally eager to get their hands on the legacy of their species when the Asurans tell them of it.

After a raid on Atlantis, in which they probe the minds of the team, the Asurans learn what happened to Koracen et al, and then send a ship to recover the few survivors of their species.

The team join with a sizeable fleet of Wraith in attacking the new Asgard/Asuran homeworld, but this time, there's no blowing up the planet (and actual drone swarms from the planet, and so forth) this time, they're defeated, but at the last moment, the drones stop, spreading out to form a sphere around the wraith and human ships. Throughout the battle, we cut to Doctor Weir (either version) appealing to both the Asgard and the Asurans to adopt the better sides of their respective progenitors' natures.

Eventually, she gets her way, and, in exchange for an alliance, the Asgard and Asurans will help the Tau'ri & Todd's faction 'convince' the other wraith to adopt gene-therepy. A more satisfying ending for the Asurans, and a resolution of sorts for the Asgard. I might also include Asuran knowledge of artificial bodies and stolen time travel technology to have the Asgard take an archive of stored minds from Aurilla during Unending. But that's mostly because the mass suicide annoyed me.

Cue lead in for film number two, which is of course, to wrap up the Wraith.

No damn ghosts needed.

[JME2]

Perhaps, but to me, the Asurans were Replicators Redux and I was so fucking sick of them by the end that I'm happy if "Ghost in the Machine" is our last glimpse. Regardless, it is indeed very likely that the rogue Asgard to faction into either the first film or any additional films; Mallozzi also indicated that there were plans to deal with that plot thread in Season 6.

[Braedley]

I really would like to see the Assgard come back. The midseason 2 parter simply wasn't enough, and it can offer a compelling story line.

[Strider]

I'm sure we'll see the Arsegard beaten to Death with a Dead Horse by the time Stargate: Universe is done.

[Vertigo1]

Didn't they find out midway through the season that would be the last ep?

I reckon they did a hasty rewrite to make it not a cliffhanger. Early rumours were that it would be a cliffhanger iirc.

They should have just cliffhangered it and done a big movie in my opinion.

And risk having another Farscape on their hands? I think Scifi put some pressure on them to NOT make it a cliffhanger for that very reason.

Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi claims the intention had always been to return Atlantis to Earth for the 100th episode. So, if Sci-Fi was pressuring them and Mallozi's not bullshitting us, this appears to have been mutually beneficial to the network and the producers. (On a sour note, it looks like there were also plans to do at least one more episode with the Asurans, or rather the rogue Asurans. God willingly, nothing will come of that in the first or any successive SGA films.)

Which if they were pressuring them, it would be moot since they film the show in the exact same environment anyways. Either in the forest somewhere in Vancouver, or a stage set on the lot. Though now I have a hard time seeing Atlantis leaving Earth since it would leave the planet completely defenseless. The only way out of that is for a team to liberate the chair platform from Taonas (assuming its still there since the whole place caved in).

You know, just thinking about that makes me want to watch "Lost City" all over again.

[NecronLord]

Perhaps, but to me, the Asurans were Replicators Redux

Honestly, I've no real sympathy for this idea, they're something different. They just happened to be called replicators by the characters. They had different techniques, motivation, and hell, reasons. The only thing that made them similar was sharing the some of the same physical properties, which it's logical enough to suppose would appear over and over across the universe.

Frankly, if they'd never said the word 'replicator' in Atlantis, it would have been to the good. Instead, people seemed to go with the idea that they're the same 'replicator' menace. It wouldn't have hurt to just have them immune to ARGs (or better just not mention them) either, even though it does make some sense as a shared vulnerability.

[Crazedwraith]

Although I disliked the Asurans from the start; partly due to how they were used to totally wipe out the ancients from the start of "Return" off-screen; who I thought set up a far more interesting dynamic for the show.

The ARGs working on them does make a lot of sense. Considering the original ARG was designed/found by Jack using information from the ancient archive itself. Why would the Ancient have designed something like that if they didn't have anyone to use it on.

To be fair; they should have made the Asurans more distinct from the humanfrom replicators. ie) not had the hand in the head trick or something.

[Vertigo1]

I really would like to see the Assgard come back. The midseason 2 parter simply wasn't enough, and it can offer a compelling story line.

Plus, these guys were atleast somewhat competent....unlike their dead cousins. I'd also like to see more of those aliens that we saw in the ep with the reality shifting Daedalus.

[CaptJodan]

I really would like to see the Assgard come back. The midseason 2 parter simply wasn't enough, and it can offer a compelling story line.

Plus, these guys were atleast somewhat competent....unlike their dead cousins. I'd also like to see more of those aliens that we saw in the ep with the reality shifting Daedalus.

I'd rather they weren't brought back into the fold unless they were stronger than what they were portrayed as in the second episode of that run. I was insulted that a run down, beat up traveller ship was able to take out what was presumably a very advanced race akin to the real Asgard. The one plus they had was that their ground combat tactics seemed superior to their otherwise much kinder cousins.

Obviously, there are excuses for this. Without the proper materials and support structure, they just wouldn't have the ability to make advanced warships or have the same level of tech that the Asgard had. But, plot wise, what we've seen of them suggests that, while in ground combat with our SG teams they will be a formidable and interesting threat (unlike the Wraith), in space against a 304, they would be as underwhelming as the Wraith are. And Atlantis doesn't need another underwhelming enemy.

Plus I can't get over how Daniel...Daniel of all people, didn't offer them help to relocate themselves and try and help them with their own problems, as a compromise to just becoming enemies. It may not have worked, but this is the kind of thing Daniel supposedly does.

[Themightytom]

Plus, these guys were atleast somewhat competent....unlike their dead cousins. I'd also like to see more of those aliens that we saw in the ep with the reality shifting Daedalus.

I completely agree with you re: the current Asgard as well as the aliens from the Daedalus variations. I wrote a whole redo of "Enemy at the Gate" that included the lsot tribe, the Pegasus coalition, the travellers the aliens from Daedalus variations and Weir's little band, but rather than posting it, I am going to edit it into the fanfic I'm working on because frankly... Atlantis is now in the wrong galaxy for my plot damnit...

I predict the Awful movie To Come will involve some plot acrobatics that will return Atlantis to the Pegasus galaxy, if not lantea itself out of manufactured neccesity.

Does earth really need a chair given that they FIVE F304s they have can wipe out anything they run up against, all they REALLY need are more ZPMs because thats essentially what augmented the wraith ship beyond belief.

Does it seem plausble that the enhanced dampening shield that prevents beaming was responsible for repulsing the drones, I find that more plausible than superdense armor stopping soemthing that can go through walls and what not.

[NecronLord]

I find that more plausible than superdense armor stopping soemthing that can go through walls and what not.

What horse shit.

I possess a drill.

It can drill a hole in my wall.

Therefore, it can drill through a military bunker?


Frankly, I found the 'more power, more armour, more guns' approach in this episode very satisfying, compared to the 'better technology' plot they've tended to use to make more formidable opponents (Anubis, Ori especially) in the past.

[Themightytom]

What horse shit.

I possess a drill.

It can drill a hole in my wall.

Therefore, it can drill through a military bunker?

What do you have stock invested in polarized hull plating research? How is your analogy relevant, you have ironically used your analogy to bypass the entire argument regarding whether drones pass through things or whether they are just highly charged.

Are you proposing that with a proper power source, your wall can become a military bunker?

[Zac Naloen]

Tom, you seem to be forgetting that the Wraith grow their ships and growth needs energy. More growth requires more energy, ZPM provides this you get thicker, stronger walls (or armour).

[Themightytom]

Tom, you seem to be forgetting that the Wraith grow their ships and growth needs energy. More growth requires more energy, ZPM provides this you get thicker, stronger walls (or armour).

sweet so if I throw a palm tree into the sun it will be invulnerable because apparently theres no limits to growth. For a drone not even charged by a ZPM to be able to one shot a hatak, without passing through anything it must be REALLY powerful (Its good to be king) therefore for the wraith ship to be powerful enough to repel hundreds of ZPM charged drones, well that must be some PRETTY dense armor.

[Zac Naloen]

The ships are artificially grown and not tree's.

And who said there are no limits? The point is that the extra power from the ZPM increased the limit for the hive ship. As stated several times during the season and reiterated in the episode, the only limit to the wraith is their power generation. Doesn't that suggest to you they are capable of more if they have more power?

[NecronLord]

What do you have stock invested in polarized hull plating research? How is your analogy relevant, you have ironically used your analogy to bypass the entire argument regarding whether drones pass through things or whether they are just highly charged.

Are you proposing that with a proper power source, your wall can become a military bunker?

You said it yourself. Superdense armour. The Wraith built better armour and the drones didn't work so well.

Do you think the drones would effortlessly punch through the solid neutronium shell of the Asgard's time-vault on Halla, too? After all, that's a wall, and is thus the same as the hulls of goa'uld and standard wraith ships, amrite?

[Stargate Nerd]

Both deploy the horizon missile, which partially disables the hiveship's sublight capability.

The Horizon weapons platform? Isn't that equipped with Mark IX gatebusters? The naquadriah nukes? A successful deployment would mean the Hive ship gets hit with 12 multiple gigaton warheads. You think the Hive becomes that powerful even with a ZPM?

[Themightytom]

You said it yourself. Superdense armour. The Wraith built better armour and the drones didn't work so well.

Do you think the drones would effortlessly punch through the solid neutronium shell of the Asgard's time-vault on Halla, too? After all, that's a wall, and is thus the same as the hulls of goa'uld and standard wraith ships, amrite?

As you describe the drones? no, I don't think they would punch through either a superdense wraith armor, or a neutronium shell. I think they would PHASE through, unless the ZPM also enhances their dampening field.

I'm sure the armor was denser to a degree, but nothing adds up if "just" the armor was stopping drones using "Just" a brute force attack, because that means that either hataks are fantastically weak, or ZPM enhanced Wraith hulls are impossibly strong.

The ships are artificially grown and not tree's.

And who said there are no limits? The point is that the extra power from the ZPM increased the limit for the hive ship. As stated several times during the season and reiterated in the episode, the only limit to the wraith is their power generation. Doesn't that suggest to you they are capable of more if they have more power?

A degree of fortification should be possible, for example, A sapling is bendy and weak and not so dense. A fully grown oak tree is significantly more dense, but there is still a limit on how strong a tree can get, and similiarly there should be a limit on how much tougher a wraith hull can get, even with increased power. I already acknowledged the hull was stronger, but theres a lot of room between "Stronger" and "impervious to necronlord's perception of an Ancient Drone."

[NecronLord]

As you describe the drones? no, I don't think they would punch through either a superdense wraith armor, or a neutronium shell. I think they would PHASE through, unless the ZPM also enhances their dampening field.

What makes you think they phase shift? Hell, I used to think that, and got slapped down on it. Never is it stated or even meaningfully implied that they phase through anything.

Please provide evidence of phase shifting drones.

[Bilbo]

As you describe the drones? no, I don't think they would punch through either a superdense wraith armor, or a neutronium shell. I think they would PHASE through, unless the ZPM also enhances their dampening field.

What makes you think they phase shift? Hell, I used to think that, and got slapped down on it. Never is it stated or even meaningfully implied that they phase through anything.

Please provide evidence of phase shifting drones.

Actually I think we have partial proof that drones cannot phase through solid matter. The very first time we see drones used is when O'Neil takes out the fleet of Anubis. When he fires them they blow a hole in the ice to get to the surface then fly up and destroy the fleet.

If drones can phase through matter then wouldnt it have made sense that they phase through the ice instead of wasting some of their destructive power punching through the ice?

[Zac Naloen]

Atlantis episode The Tower, otherwise forgettable episode, Rodney uses a drone to blast a hole from an underground cavern to the surface.

[Vympel]

Atlantis episode The Tower, otherwise forgettable episode, Rodney uses a drone to blast a hole from an underground cavern to the surface.

The episode where the Asurans take over as well - they chase drones after a Puddle Jumper and they collide and explode against the city, often too.

[Zac Naloen]

Whatever the drones are, most on screen evidence suggests they are just highly penetrable and do their damage by getting through the vital systems and ripping the shit out it.

If you have an armour thick enough your going to need a hell of a lot of drones to get through that stuff. Atlantis was being unusually conservative in this episode.